The Politics Megathread

[Gay4Jesus]

@readingsit
Just to clarify, Nazis were not necessarily socialist. Thats like calling the DPRK democratic because its in the name.

The modern way of using socialist doesnt really work here either, they were pretty welcoming to big business and privatized govt industries

The only reasonable counter I could think of would be the Strasserists (who were a genuine socialist faction in the party) but theyre not who you probably think of when u think of Nazis.

This is probably because they were killed in the night of the long knives where a lot of opposing and potential threats to Hitler were murdered. They didn’t really have a major role in the party either afaik

 

[readingsit]

@Gay4Jesus
fair, their name does not necessarily indicate anything but remember that i was replying to somone and adding to what he said around

I get immediately why people throw fascists and socialists into the same relative camp

but to argue an additional point i looked up the 25-point Nazi Program of 1921
10 and 11 states generally: you work is not individual it is for the sta-err-'general good', Abolition of income
point 14 gives religious platitude with a strong hinting of 'but dont be tooo religious' and once againg emphasizes “The good of the community before the good of the individual”

you are correct to say that they didnt practice what they preach when they allowed, for example, "Despite widespread rationing of inputs firms normally still had ample scope to follow their own production plans" but this can be explained simply as: if socialism was fully implemented they would have collapsed into chaos. ideology comes second to survival. this is the bases of the nonsense argument that 'true socialism has never been tried' because when socialists come to power they realize they cant drink the poisoned koolaid or they die.

even soviet russia allowed scope for some private enterprise but they still collapsed because the state was none-the-less too overbearing. if nazi germany never invaded anyone and had no jews to kill and rob they would have collapsed all the same given time

 

[vinsegas]

I dont usually bother myself with this thread because I fear I will suffer a stroke.
But a lot of people here are against Biden because he is from the "left".
The funny thing is that their "left" would be the right in Europe, here we have the real left.
And their right would be considered radical right in Europe.😄

Anyways, that was all. I dont know why there are all afraid of him, if he is not even real left.

 

[Hornyturtle]

@vinsegas https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH_sdTC7Anw

This might help you understand a bit more about biden

 

[Mielly]

@readingsit
>thank you! its so frustrating when i know the man is great in his field but i know so little of the field i cant say why :/
Indeed I was right but I even underestimated how useless it was to try to argue with you. You literally admitted to taking for granted Sowell is "a great man", a "genius" with nothing to back it up, while waiting for someone to confirm your pre-established opinion. Your awkward parroting of theories you don't even understand properly, like Friedman's "money printing leads to inflation" is the nail in your coffin of dishonest ignorance. I'll leave you to your "sjw and left bad" blabber since I have no interest in political mud-flinging, much less with right-wings weebs. Just never ever pretend to know a single thing about economics again.
@Tamerlane
>you haven't referenced his theory or shortcomings in his school of economics in any real way
It's the single subject of the e-book I linked earlier, do you really expect me to re-write here everything in it? Why can't you just give it a try, find a neoclassical theory you're familiar with, read the chapter on it, see for yourself the rebuttal check the bibliography and make your own mind? Sowell isn't a particularly brillant scholar even his own school of econ, he mainly is famous for his mainstream books and because of his active conservative agenda. Otherwise he's a run-of-the-mill neoclassical, and it's his school of thought I'd rather debate.
Neoclassical economists didn't see the crisis coming because fundamentally their theory, from its base (Law of Say, EMT,etc) cannot model a crisis by debt deflation or a bursting bubble. Too many core neoclassical theorems postulate as premisses that the economy is in a state of equilibrium. Even Friedman's theorem on money printing and inflation, which readingsit parrots without thought, works like that. You can find the original article online, and it's a very good demonstration. The problem, once again, is in the premisses of the theorem. In the beginning of his theorem, Friedman postulates a city IIRC that is at optimum equilibrium, meaning its entire working force and capital is allocated, without perturbation. This means that while technically correct, his demonstration cannot apply anywhere else than in the case where there's no unemployment, no unused ressources or production machines, no liquidity or credit problems. A place that would satisfy those conditions would already have a very healthy economy, hence making money printing useless to begin with.
I answered you since your message showed you were of good faith. Hope this little demonstration showed you a little glimpse into the world of critic of neoclassical economy.

 

[Mielly]

@vinsegas
Agreed. Only in the US can you find "economists" like this dumb sellout Sowell claiming "public healthcare is irresponsible, expensive and unfair", while upper-class americans used to come to France to use their public-funded health services, while the lower class suffer from healthcare-related bankrupcy. Honestly it's just better to laugh at them and hope they won't invade us.

 

[vinsegas]

@Mielly
Touche!

 

[immortalartisan]

When can I leave the hell hole that is America?

 

[readingsit]

@Mielly

Indeed I was right but I even underestimated how useless it was to try to argue with you

ive already explained why i do not consider you a reliable source and your post only compounds on that point. if i knew nothing of science but knew Einstein was important then some rando on the internet who, in-between his insults self-righteousness, insisted that Einstein was some stupid old man and i was unable to defend him i would not be wrong to point out my lack of understanding on the subject as well as out how unconvincing that person is being. your tactics wouldnt be able to convince me that ginsberg isnt historically important and i despise her actions in life and would be biased in favor of such an argument

@vinsegas

But a lot of people here are against Biden because he is from the "left".

im sorry did you read this thread from the beginning? because biden was mentioned like once in ten pages. so im not sure if 'left' is the only reason for the people still posting

The funny thing is that their "left" would be the right in Europe, here we have the real left.
And their right would be considered radical right in Europe.

in europe the positions on sits from the king is how the determine if you are left or right while in america it is determined by a simple graph 100(left)-0(right) on somones position on the size of government.
because of this in europe the left and right is simply a statement of "those who support the power of the king"(right) and "those who do not"(left) this is why extremists on both sides end up becoming indistinguishable from each other because a communist would be left and a fascist right even though both would want comparable policy
this is why in america republicans are so annoyed by the far-right nonsense because its an attempt to apply European vision of left and right in europe while not even bothering to translate it.

republican party platform is that of small government, regardless of what you think of the politicians themselves, and so they would be considered left in europe since the party platform is that of controlling the power of the king. democrats, while in support of large government, they are driven by ideology not any individual leader so they too would be left just farther left in other words they want the country controlled by the state but that state would be controlled by the party not the king.
in america the proper usage of far right would be to describe a true anarchist(who are very rare) and anarcho-capitalists(less rare) but every other extremist government would be left

@immortalartisan

When can I leave the hell hole that is America?

while some countries have closed their borders not all of them have so you can leave as soon as you get a visa and apply for citizenship in your new country

 

[Mielly]

@readingsit
Your example just further proves me right. Einstein indeed got a few things wrong, especially in the domain of quantum physics in his debates with Niels Bohr. So yes if someone you don't know came and told you Einstein was completely wrong on some subject you had no expertise in, you'd have to actually consider the argument and check it instead of blindly trusting in Einstein's fame. This might be my last serious response to you since your complete denial of science in favor of your personal political beliefs is now exposed for all to see.
>ginsberg isnt historically important and i despise her actions in life and would be biased in favor of such an argument
Oh so you're not only a right-wing weeb but also a pro-life weeb? That's funny. What do you even do for a living ? Do you even live in the states ?

 

[BestBoy]

@Mielly I stopped trying to have serious discussions in here back during the US election. It's an exercise in futility.

Also, as someone from texas, none of the folks here discussing the texas interconnection know what they're talking about. It was funny watching y'all, though.

 

[readingsit]

@Mielly

Einstein indeed got a few things wrong

you said

My jaw and stomach still hurt from the burst of laughter

in reply to

genius economist thomas sowell

so your contention isnt "thomas sowell is wrong" its "thomas sowell isnt a genius economist". stephen hawking's most famous theory was disproved that doesnt diminish his genius in his field and i dont even like the guy. einstein was wrong about things doesnt change what i said, he is still a genius in his field and his cornucopia of awards is a testament to that. and finally thomas sowell is a genius economist, you may disagree with him but that statement stands disagreeing with somone over somthing does not make them a "complete idiot"

from this point on i will not be replying to you since you obviously are not here for discussion but just to deride and insult. my every statement is just more ways for you to claim "and that just proves all the more how much stupider then me you are" and a discussion where one person insists "if x then you are stupid" and x is anything but complete agreement then it isnt a discussion

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@BestBoy
You and Tamerlane must have collectively typed enough in your back and forth to fill a doctoral thesis. I'm sure you're aware that people are prone to writing off interactions as 'wastes of time' and the like whenever their views aren't reaffirmed, regardless of the civility involved. Claiming futility is a disservice that could very well fall in line with such a train of thought.

none of the folks here discussing the texas interconnection know what they're talking about. It was funny watching y'all, though.

Assuming you are a buff on the topic, why not inform myself and others instead of passively chiding at them?

 

[wowfucktron]

@bigtiddyoneesan
Its fun watching my rants be proven correct in real time.
It's like everyone here feels the need to educate their "enemies" because their "enemies" have the "wrong" interpretations on life and how society should be put together.

Everyone here is claiming futility when their side can't get a handle on the thread's course.
But the leftists are going low (insults and dismissive nittery) because their lack of argumentation is being called out whenever they go to "theory needs to be read more."
Meanwhile most of the righties in here can't seem to figure out why everything is just going in circles.
protip: neither side came here for anything other than Ben Shapiro Moments, ie. no discussion in good faith.

-------------------------------
Anyways, I'm going to keep monitoring the situation from the loony bin and jump in to dab on some communists when I feel like it.

 

[Mielly]

@wowfucktron
You ain't dabbing on anyone here waifushitter. Sitting back and hiding behind irony as if it was a shield doesn't make you smart, it just shows how insecure you are of showing what you really think.
@bigtiddyoneesan
>why not inform myself and others instead of passively chiding at them
Why not read the materials I provided, even just the first chapter for example ? See if it interests you, and it'll always be better than pointless banter then.
@readingsit
So you don't have the first idea about economics, you don't even know what that Sowell idiot actually produced or what he even worked on, but you'll still get all mad because I derided him for being the sellout he is ? I wish my dog was as loyal and obedient as you are to this guy.
@BestBoy
>arguing here with edgy right-wing teenage weebs during the US election
Jesus Christ how horrifying. The 2016 election was such a calamity it made me leave 4chan, I can't imagine trying to reason with isekai reader and waifu coomers, not to mention you'd be lucky to stumble over anyone over 22.

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@Mielly

Why not read the materials I provided, even just the first chapter for example ? See if it interests you, and it'll always be better than pointless banter then.

This response would be within reason if my quote was directed towards you, but I never explicitly critiqued your economic diatribes as I'm not fluent in economic theory.

And an addendum: "you'd be lucky to stumble over anyone over 22*"
*_{who has also completed at least 60 credits in their respective liberal arts degree}

 

[M0NST3R]

Alright y'all, I've gotten through the rest of Fascism for the Millions (quick read, its about 65 pages) and I have a few things that I was able to take away from it in totality.

But first I want to go in and further explain what I meant by my earlier points, specifically concerning why I could see people throwing fascists and socialists into the same relative camp.

The latter half of Mosley's book, and to a lesser extent Mussolini's writings, typically focus on the idea of Autarky (Self-reliance) as a means of helping to address internal disparities. This is similar to the Five Year plans from the Leninist and later Stalinist governments in the USSR. Specifically the idea of economic revival via agricultural reform feeding into an increase in manufacturing capacity. For the Soviets it was through the use of collectivization, which led to de-Kulakization. Mosley suggested state run reclamation programs and various incentive programs which allowed for "Private ownership". Kind of. Not really though.

What is dissimilar between the two is that Mosley was planning on cutting entire core aspects of the British Economy off from the world, specifically foodstuffs, certain manufacturing sectors such as ship building and textiles, thus barring the importation of certain items and attempting to improve economic health within the country. The USSR on the other hand, engaged in frequent trade to cover shortfalls in foodstuffs by exporting raw materials.

Overall, his own writing is basically about as effective as a normal party platform in an argument. A lot of fluff and bluster, and some attempts at trying to propose solutions, but little evidence to help justify what he calls 'failures' and even less effort at trying to explain why those failures occurred. Frankly there is a limit to blaming politicians for being politicians.

Also, since age is coming up. 26 year old Political Science graduate.

 

[EzWeeb]

Franco is the only one who got Fascism right.

 

[Mielly]

@bigtiddyoneesan
> liberal arts degree
I'm west-european so I don't really know what you mean by that, but if it's a "haha liberals do useless degrees" thing, come on. Pretty sure we're all STEM, neets or underaged teens here.
You could see it as an opportunity to learn about economics. Even if you want to stay as true as the conservative doxa as possible, since every first part of each chapter literally quotes with rigorous bibliography neoclassical theory. And to be honest even the rebuttal are from neoclassicals, since like I explained it in my Friedman example, the problem is often in the premisses of the theorems.
While I'm still here, whoever claimed "inflation hits poor people harder" is either an absolute idiot or a really devious liar. No economist even the most crazy would claim this seriously. The richer you are, ie. the more financial assets you possess (active in particular), the more inflation makes you lose money. If you own debt, large quantities of cash, or fixed-earning assets, an inflation rate of 7% can cost you a lot of money in just a few years. Whereas if you're poor you don't even own enough cash to really see those 7% take effect beyond some pennies, and it's even better if you're in debt since those 7% actually eat away at the debt or even cancel out the interest rate. I'm honestly pretty pissed off that someone would spread this kind of offending falsehood without any remorse or respect for whoever's reading them.
@BestBoy
How's it in Texas ? Are people able to cope with the snowstorm ?

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@Mielly
"Lib arts degree" was in reference to "arguing here with edgy right-wing teenage weebs." It was insinuating that a student or graduate of a liberal college would be your preferred debate/discussion partner, as such a person would be a foil to someone identifying on the right. The remark was mainly in jest though, and not meant as some 'gotcha'-type comment. I'm sure most people here see the value in interactions between those with opposing views.

As for your sales pitch in creating more economicultists (/s), I already downloaded the pdf you linked a bit ago. Having more books can't hurt, and economics specifically is a useful topic for myself. Can't ensure I'll get to heavy reading anytime soon though.