VIP
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2018
- Messages
- 1,071
N
The Skeleton Soldier Failed to Defend the Dungeon - Vol. 1 Ch. 56
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 2,105
@criver
I'm not saying it's not cheap writing (don't forget we're reading a story with game-mechanics, this isn't high-level writing right here), but I am saying: that is how you can make it work. You never just senselessly power up your MC, just for the sake of "powering them up is cool".
In order to "properly" power up your character all of a sudden, you need to focus on "why it is necessary for the MC to have this power to begin with". And you can shoelace the justification of great power, by presenting an impossible obstacle that'd require that much power to overcome.
For an instance, in wuxia / xianxia, they usually start out the story by having an MC who is unfairly treated by people of much greater authority and status than he does. Since they are backed up by what is essentially the government / mafia, they cannot be touched. Not normally.
The only way to overcome them, from a commoner's point of view, is to gain supernatural powers. And that's usually how it goes. That's also why it's not strictly deus-ex-machina, but a macguffin. The tropes are different in that, there'd be no plot without that overwhelming power to begin with.
I'm not saying it's not cheap writing (don't forget we're reading a story with game-mechanics, this isn't high-level writing right here), but I am saying: that is how you can make it work. You never just senselessly power up your MC, just for the sake of "powering them up is cool".
In order to "properly" power up your character all of a sudden, you need to focus on "why it is necessary for the MC to have this power to begin with". And you can shoelace the justification of great power, by presenting an impossible obstacle that'd require that much power to overcome.
For an instance, in wuxia / xianxia, they usually start out the story by having an MC who is unfairly treated by people of much greater authority and status than he does. Since they are backed up by what is essentially the government / mafia, they cannot be touched. Not normally.
The only way to overcome them, from a commoner's point of view, is to gain supernatural powers. And that's usually how it goes. That's also why it's not strictly deus-ex-machina, but a macguffin. The tropes are different in that, there'd be no plot without that overwhelming power to begin with.
@Solipsist I still fail to see how an obstacle arguably requiring said super powers justifies bending the story to make it work. Not to mention that in many cases the 'required' super powers could have been replaced with something a lot more believable but requiring more creativity rather than reusing the typical plot progression for shounen fights. It's unrealistic, cliche and poor writing in general. Which begs the question why do you believe that it actually works:
I don't see how your examples support that either, all I see is you giving examples of popular but poor writing practices. And as far as I am aware the essence of a macguffin doesn't lie into magically resolving situations, that's precisely a deus ex machina development.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 2,105
@criver
You're making a lot of assumptions, so I fail to really catch your drift here, so once again:
we're both reading a story that is actively using game-mechanics to drive the plot forward, and you're talking to me about poor writing practices? That's already way out of the window. At this point, I already accept these "shitty writing practices", and try to see how they can be used to make a reasonable story to read, at the bare minimum.
And from my POV, I'd like for a huge power to require a huge problem, and not the other way around.
That is to say -- If your power is "sensing where people are" -- I'd like you to unlock it while trying desperately to find your family in a burning building, rather than randomally gaining that power, and then trying to find a burning building to test it on.
And about macguffin,
I was wrong about the macguffin's definition, confused it with something else I am actually not sure how to call...
Essentially, how'd you define the narrative purpose of the radioactive-spider that bits Peter, thus giving him all of the powers that enable him to even be Spiderman?
That's the difference between "something that nonsensically resolves a plot-point", and -- "something that "nonsensically" starts the plot". Without the Spider, there'd be no Spiderman, just like without the "System", there'd be no Skele-bro, just as much as there'd be no "Wuxia protagonist" if he wouldn't have found that Magic Ring / Secret Scroll / Secret Inheritance / etc.
In summary, all I'm sayun is that there's a bare-minimum I expect from stories to "make them work". If you want to have an OPMC, at least give me a good reason to believe he needs that much amount of power, rather than just give him that much amount of power....And try to find a reason what can be possibly do with it.
If you cannot agree on that much, I have no idea how to go forward here.
You're making a lot of assumptions, so I fail to really catch your drift here, so once again:
we're both reading a story that is actively using game-mechanics to drive the plot forward, and you're talking to me about poor writing practices? That's already way out of the window. At this point, I already accept these "shitty writing practices", and try to see how they can be used to make a reasonable story to read, at the bare minimum.
And from my POV, I'd like for a huge power to require a huge problem, and not the other way around.
That is to say -- If your power is "sensing where people are" -- I'd like you to unlock it while trying desperately to find your family in a burning building, rather than randomally gaining that power, and then trying to find a burning building to test it on.
And about macguffin,
I was wrong about the macguffin's definition, confused it with something else I am actually not sure how to call...
Essentially, how'd you define the narrative purpose of the radioactive-spider that bits Peter, thus giving him all of the powers that enable him to even be Spiderman?
That's the difference between "something that nonsensically resolves a plot-point", and -- "something that "nonsensically" starts the plot". Without the Spider, there'd be no Spiderman, just like without the "System", there'd be no Skele-bro, just as much as there'd be no "Wuxia protagonist" if he wouldn't have found that Magic Ring / Secret Scroll / Secret Inheritance / etc.
In summary, all I'm sayun is that there's a bare-minimum I expect from stories to "make them work". If you want to have an OPMC, at least give me a good reason to believe he needs that much amount of power, rather than just give him that much amount of power....And try to find a reason what can be possibly do with it.
If you cannot agree on that much, I have no idea how to go forward here.
@Solipsist
Game mechanics and good writing should not be mutually exclusive, even if isekai try to make it so. In fact game mechanics are usually not forgiving otherwise you end up with a broken game. You would know what I mean if you've played any competitive games - it's not about getting a huge advantage randomly and then winning without any actual skill, it's about efficiency. You actually get the opposite in such manga - the character is OP, sometimes given a lot more skills than he will ever need (to the point where some are forgotten), and then you see some mediocre use of those skills. If I were to make an analogy that's like playing a starcraft game and having infinite resources but still being totally inept at the game, and when you start losing the enemy supply self-destructs to even out the ods.
I guess my issue is that you're implying that somehow the story becomes 'reasonable to read' if the MC unlocks super powers in a dire situation. I fail to see the connection, he still gets OP, just in different circumstances.
That's the initial premise, not something that's supposed to happen at every turn. What we are discussing on the other hand is having the premise set, and then modifying the rules in order to drive the story. I would argue that a character getting super powers out of the blue, facing an obstacle he wouldn't have been able to deal with otherwise, is actually worse. Since it's just plot armour and obvious plot hole patching in order to avoid tragedy.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 2,105
@criver
I feel like you're deluding yourself when it comes to game-mechanics, at least regarding this story. The MC obviously has an unfair advantage over other people, whom has all to work hard on cultivating their abilities, when he can just "level up" and instantly acquire random skills. The MC also has potentially infinite lives and doesn't have to "fear" death in contrast to literally anyone else. Furthermore, he now has the ability to literally suck away skills without working for them. Is that such sophisticated writing? But I digress, the initial point only actually pointed to this:
I'm saying something extremely simple -- skele-MC is currently acquiring a lot of abilities one after another, and it's confusing as to what he's even going to do with them. In order to make his large arse growth seem 'reasonable', it's a lot better for him to have a reason standing in front of him that'd require that much power, rather than just literally let him stand still on a battlefield and then enjoy his sweet time by sucking away everyone's abilities and strength for no reason.
And in theory -- if you want your MC to grow real strong, real fast, it's optimal to present a reason big enough to warrant that sort of leap. That's literally it. I'm already past not-enjoying this conversation, so don't expect so much text from me next.
I feel like you're deluding yourself when it comes to game-mechanics, at least regarding this story. The MC obviously has an unfair advantage over other people, whom has all to work hard on cultivating their abilities, when he can just "level up" and instantly acquire random skills. The MC also has potentially infinite lives and doesn't have to "fear" death in contrast to literally anyone else. Furthermore, he now has the ability to literally suck away skills without working for them. Is that such sophisticated writing? But I digress, the initial point only actually pointed to this:
I'm saying something extremely simple -- skele-MC is currently acquiring a lot of abilities one after another, and it's confusing as to what he's even going to do with them. In order to make his large arse growth seem 'reasonable', it's a lot better for him to have a reason standing in front of him that'd require that much power, rather than just literally let him stand still on a battlefield and then enjoy his sweet time by sucking away everyone's abilities and strength for no reason.
And in theory -- if you want your MC to grow real strong, real fast, it's optimal to present a reason big enough to warrant that sort of leap. That's literally it. I'm already past not-enjoying this conversation, so don't expect so much text from me next.
@Solipsist
Did I ever imply it was? All of my points were challenging statements you made, which you then address as if I am talking about something else and not the assertions I quoted.
I keep trying to make you provide arguments as to why that would be 'a lot better'. There's no natural law stating that you're supposed to get a power-up if you face a hard situation (beyond what your body can normally provide for extreme situations). In my last reply I provided a reason as to why getting a power-up out of the blue just to resolve a challenge is in fact worse in terms of writing. What I would like you to do is provide an argument as to why it would be 'better'. I got your point - I didn't get on what you base that point, precisely I want you to explain why you believe this holds true:
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 2,105
@criver
Okay. So you're just here to talk theory, k.
Because otherwise you have Power -> problem. It puts the carriage in front of the horse.
I.E: A 'Problem' builds expectations of resolution within the audience ("douchebag nobles"), and the granted 'Power' is there to bring catharsis ("put them in their place").
If you mix the order of things, you get an over powered individual who's strong for no reason, which usually leads to the author trying to add things to the story to justify their newfound powers. You can claim "Power" builds up expectation of its use within the audience ("Gaining super powers"), and wait for "Problems" to show up so the MC can put them to use ("defeating super villains")...But, again, that's putting the carriage in front of the horse, and doesn't establish motives or points of interest what so ever in the MC.
If you're asking "why even have overwhelming power to begin with?" -- then you're stepping outside of the topic.
Okay. So you're just here to talk theory, k.
Because otherwise you have Power -> problem. It puts the carriage in front of the horse.
I.E: A 'Problem' builds expectations of resolution within the audience ("douchebag nobles"), and the granted 'Power' is there to bring catharsis ("put them in their place").
If you mix the order of things, you get an over powered individual who's strong for no reason, which usually leads to the author trying to add things to the story to justify their newfound powers. You can claim "Power" builds up expectation of its use within the audience ("Gaining super powers"), and wait for "Problems" to show up so the MC can put them to use ("defeating super villains")...But, again, that's putting the carriage in front of the horse, and doesn't establish motives or points of interest what so ever in the MC.
If you're asking "why even have overwhelming power to begin with?" -- then you're stepping outside of the topic.
@Solipsist
So are you implying that somehow a character getting power out of thin air in order to clear some obstacle makes more sense? I would argue that it's the opposite. And my argument would be that 'patching' the story with an unlikely power-up is just covering up a plot hole, while having a character that's established as strong and providing a challenge where he doesn't have to unrealistically gain such power doesn't count as a plot hole. In the latter case you're operating within the rules you have already established, in the former case you're bending said rules to accommodate your character's plot armour.
A power-up doesn't establish motives and points of interest in either case, so I do not get how this is relevant to your point. You keep repeating that it's putting the carriage before the horse but you have to provide evidence for this. Basically you need to substantiate your statements.
Double-page supporter
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2018
- Messages
- 3,134
@criver I also didn't like their implication that power shouldn't be handed out without reason, that eliminates the possibility of a proactive protagonist that drives the plot forward instead of a passive protagonist that moves where the plot demands, power is a means to an end, guns, nukes, magic, superpowers, etc, none of it should simply disappear in the absence of a goal or threat.
Dex-chan lover
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2018
- Messages
- 2,105
@criver
@gaigous
More often than not, "a power" is merely something meant to direct the protagonist towards their path. The essence of that statement lies in the Monomyth, which is about having humble beginnings, go on a journey, acquire a power, and accomplish a task. Star Wars is a basic example of this, while Harry Potter may as well be even more of a basic example, as the framing of "being a wizard" is to immediately escape his shitty life with his foster-parents, and the long-term framing of his newfound powers is to eventually face off against Voldemort, rather than just be a wizard boy wonder for no reason.
If you ever want to go: "Hey, you're Wizard / Jedi!" -- you better have a good reason for it lined up, unless you want to enter discovery-writing hell.
That's not the "opposite", that's something completely different and you're way stepping the bounds out of this conversation. I now understand why it was simply impossible to go anywhere with you.
If what I was talking about is "There's something to do, let's go find a power to deal with it", the opposite of that would be: "You gained a lot of power, let's go find something to do with it", which I repeatedly explained is potentially much, much worse than the former. But lo and behold you never even cared about that, but merely wanted to talk about the 3rd option that's outside the bounds of this conver:
"If you're asking "why even have overwhelming power to begin with?" -- then you're stepping outside of the topic."
^
P.S:
"A power-up doesn't establish motives and points of interest in either case, so I do not get how this is relevant to your point."
....Waht.
"A power demands a need". That's the motive. The Need. Someone killed your family and you want revenge. A random devil comes to you with a soul-contract, an alluring promise of power.
Get it? comprande? Because at this point I'm done with this conversation. Thanks for wasting both of our time by talking about something completely different.
If what I was talking about is "There's something to do, let's go find a power to deal with it", the opposite of that would be: "You gained a lot of power, let's go find something to do with it", which I repeatedly explained is potentially much, much worse than the former. But lo and behold you never even cared about that, but merely wanted to talk about the 3rd option that's outside the bounds of this conver:
"If you're asking "why even have overwhelming power to begin with?" -- then you're stepping outside of the topic."
^
P.S:
"A power-up doesn't establish motives and points of interest in either case, so I do not get how this is relevant to your point."
....Waht.
"A power demands a need". That's the motive. The Need. Someone killed your family and you want revenge. A random devil comes to you with a soul-contract, an alluring promise of power.
Get it? comprande? Because at this point I'm done with this conversation. Thanks for wasting both of our time by talking about something completely different.
@gaigous
More often than not, "a power" is merely something meant to direct the protagonist towards their path. The essence of that statement lies in the Monomyth, which is about having humble beginnings, go on a journey, acquire a power, and accomplish a task. Star Wars is a basic example of this, while Harry Potter may as well be even more of a basic example, as the framing of "being a wizard" is to immediately escape his shitty life with his foster-parents, and the long-term framing of his newfound powers is to eventually face off against Voldemort, rather than just be a wizard boy wonder for no reason.
If you ever want to go: "Hey, you're Wizard / Jedi!" -- you better have a good reason for it lined up, unless you want to enter discovery-writing hell.
@Solipsist
What an apt name for someone with their head so far up their backside that it forms a self contained loop.
What an apt name for someone with their head so far up their backside that it forms a self contained loop.
Similar threads
