The Unwomanly Face of War - Vol. 4 Ch. 19 - Cap 19

[MangaDex]

 

[sixfish11]

So fantastic. The author is such a real one for making this entire manga.

 

[SuperOniichan]

So fantastic. The author is such a real one for making this entire manga.

This is a manga adaptation of a non-fiction book by a Belarusian writer. The author only adapted her interview series into manga format. But if you wanted to praise his efforts in adaptation specifically, then yes, it's a good job.

 

[kuma]

it's need to be noted that most modern historian consider holodomor was not planned, at least initially. there are no record of such a thing ever discussed, let alone executed.

there were very cold year throughout 1927-1932 that make crops fail and and herders had their animals wiped out. however conflict between land owners and collectivization mess made everything worse. stalin paranoia also didn't help and thinking those report are coming from people trying undermine him.

it was affecting all across uni soviet equally initially with the government response was slow. however in later stage of famine, stalin definitely dislike helping ukraine and less discussed kazakh (percentage wise, kazakh lose even more people than ukraine) because stalin feels they have strong nationalist sentiment. not to mention stalin also didn't want to lose face that his program result in failure so he insist keep exporting grain even during peak famine thus making famine longer than it should be, killed way more people.

 

[nutjob]

@Lorhian
On page 9:
deth-by-hunger > death-by-hunger
golodomor > holodomor

 

[Ditte]

Okay, grandma, that joke made me laugh though. Bless your soul.

We have the similar stories or at least anecdotes from the time of communists purge in Indonesia. Those who were killed without questions, most likely weren't even party members. They were killed simply because their neighbor wanted their land. Too lazy or rather too kindhearted that they couldn't see the evil intention of those who were close to them.

 

[SuperOniichan]

it's need to be noted that most modern historian consider holodomor was not planned, at least initially. there are no record of such a thing ever discussed, let alone executed.

there were very cold year throughout 1927-1932 that make crops fail and and herders had their animals wiped out. however conflict between land owners and collectivization mess made everything worse. stalin paranoia also didn't help and thinking those report are coming from people trying undermine him.

it was affecting all across uni soviet equally initially with the government response was slow. however in later stage of famine, stalin definitely dislike helping ukraine and less discussed kazakh (percentage wise, kazakh lose even more people than ukraine) because stalin feels they have strong nationalist sentiment. not to mention stalin also didn't want to lose face that his program result in failure so he insist keep exporting grain even during peak famine thus making famine longer than it should be, killed way more people.

The problem with the Holodomor is that the issue was so terribly politicized that years later no one cares about its victims as such and the matter is purely political. If you look at the Wikipedia article about it, you will see that 90% of the countries that recognized it as genocide did so during the war in Ukraine, which immediately speaks to the true intentions of it. And now it will obviously be difficult for you to reconsider this, because even if you try to be neutral, it will be expected to be regarded as Ukrainophobia. The point is also that the Ukrainian economy of those years was entirely based on agriculture and we even called it the "all-Union granary". That is why these problems manifested themselves so strongly here.

But if you like to look for hidden meaning in this, trying to connect the general famine as a whole and Stalin's actions later, then you should also know that the Holodomor, like any historical event, was the result of a whole collection of facts. Starting from the horribly poor harvest years and ending with the absolutely delirious Soviet agricultural policy of those years. This can be compared with Chernobyl years later, also in Ukraine by the way, when ignoring an unusual defect in Soviet reactor technology and the desire to conduct an experiment at any cost led to another catastrophe. You can always expect dire consequences when important decisions are made by fanatics with blind faith in their own knowledge and decisions, even if they have no original bad intentions.

Okay, grandma, that joke made me laugh though. Bless your soul.

We have the similar stories or at least anecdotes from the time of communists purge in Indonesia. Those who were killed without questions, most likely weren't even party members. They were killed simply because their neighbor wanted their land. Too lazy or rather too kindhearted that they couldn't see the evil intention of those who were close to them.

Terror or repression will always lead to such situations, because people tend to adapt even to the most terrible things. For example, during the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, many of the people killed were never actually Protestants, but were simply declared so by their enemies and rivals to resolve a conflict with them under the guise of massacring the Huguenots. I'm not even talking about the original example of this with the ancient Roman proscriptions, when you could add people to your enemies' lists for money to get the bonus you "deserved" for killing them.

 

[Suzuran]

"Ugh; Why did the author have to get ~political~?"

 

[SuperOniichan]

"Ugh; Why did the author have to get ~political~?"

What? No one criticizes the author for being political, you can't write a non-fiction book about WWII and not be political.

 

[kuma]

The problem with the Holodomor is that the issue was so terribly politicized that years later no one cares about its victims as such and the matter is purely political. If you look at the Wikipedia article about it, you will see that 90% of the countries that recognized it as genocide did so during the war in Ukraine, which immediately speaks to the true intentions of it. And now it will obviously be difficult for you to reconsider this, because even if you try to be neutral, it will be expected to be regarded as Ukrainophobia. The point is also that the Ukrainian economy of those years was entirely based on agriculture and we even called it the "all-Union granary". That is why these problems manifested themselves so strongly here.

i don't know why you quoting me. what i write is literally same. it was started all of uni soviet equally. the situation only continued being bad for much longer than it should've been because stalin want to safe face and inaction. not some sort evil mastermind. for the rest of Uni soviet except ukraine, kazakh, and caucasus, the famine already relived by late 1932 while it went for another year for the ukraine. for kazakh, volga, and ural, the famine even went for another year after ukraine, they lose half of their population because of it. which is WAY worse than ukraine. Ukraine however just have big population and the refuge went to neighborhood country which give them more exposure.

 

[SuperOniichan]

i don't know why you quoting me. what i write is literally same. it was started all of uni soviet equally. the situation only continued being bad for much longer than it should've been because stalin want to safe face and inaction. not some sort evil mastermind. for the rest of Uni soviet except ukraine, kazakh, and caucasus, the famine already relived by late 1932 while it went for another year for the ukraine. for kazakh, volga, and ural, the famine even went for another year after ukraine, they lose half of their population because of it. which is WAY worse than ukraine. Ukraine however just have big population and the refuge went to neighborhood country which give them more exposure.

I quoted you because you mentioned the political discourse around the Holodomor. Stalin was indeed a rather intolerant person, just remember the infamous Doctors' Plot, which was used to hit the Soviet Jewish intelligentsia. Even the part that was definitely pro-Soviet, which is why even my ultra-communist Jewish grandmother hated Stalin. But in this case it's more of a classic "don't look for great treachery where great stupidity has occurred." In Russia there is still an idiom "to help the starving Volga region", reflecting the memory of the famine in Russian regions. But many people now think that the famine occurred exclusively in Ukraine, almost on direct orders from the evil Stalin, which is caused, to put it mildly, by the peculiarity of information about the Holodomor in our days.

 

[Suzuran]

What? No one criticizes the author for being political, you can't write a non-fiction book about WWII and not be political.

(I was mocking the denialists, or at least intended to be.)

 

[SuperOniichan]

(I was mocking the denialists, or at least intended to be.)

People are discussing the politicization of the Holodomor study, not the political nature of the topic as a whole. Which would be quite impossible, given that it is a controversial moment in history. Besides, the word "denialists" clearly does not apply to this case, since as you can see, no one denies the fact of the famine itself, the discussions are only about its causes and context.

 

[Suzuran]

Okay, grandma, that joke made me laugh though. Bless your soul.

Oh, if you liked that one, there's several other jokes along the same lines, my favorite of which goes something like this:

A traveller on a long trip books into a shared room to get some sleep. Unfortunately for him, his roommates are a group of inebriated men who are telling political jokes and loudly carrying on. Annoyed, the traveller surreptitiously sneaks out and goes to the housekeeper. "Here are twenty kopek", he says, "In fifteen minutes, please bring a glass of tea to the room." He then returns to the room unnoticed by the other men. He waits about ten minutes before calmly walking over to the table the other men are sitting at, reaching up for the light fixture over it, and holding it so as to speak into the light bulb, he says "Comrade Major, please have a glass of tea sent to the room." He then returns to his bed as the men stare at him. Sure enough, five minutes later, there is a knock at the door and the housekeeper presents him with the requested glass of tea. The merry-making ends immediately and the traveller finally gets his sleep.

He awakens the next morning to find himself alone, the door smashed in, and the room in complete disarray. He rushes downstairs to the housekeeper and asks "What happened? It looks like a disaster in there!" She is as surprised as he is: "You slept through all of that? The KGB were here! They took those other men away. They said to tell you not to worry, though - Comrade Major was greatly amused by your prank!"

 

[SuperOniichan]

Oh, if you liked that one, there's several other jokes along the same lines, my favorite of which goes something like this:

A traveller on a long trip books into a shared room to get some sleep. Unfortunately for him, his roommates are a group of inebriated men who are telling political jokes and loudly carrying on. Annoyed, the traveller surreptitiously sneaks out and goes to the housekeeper. "Here are twenty kopek", he says, "In fifteen minutes, please bring a glass of tea to the room." He then returns to the room unnoticed by the other men. He waits about ten minutes before calmly walking over to the table the other men are sitting at, reaching up for the light fixture over it, and holding it so as to speak into the light bulb, he says "Comrade Major, please have a glass of tea sent to the room." He then returns to his bed as the men stare at him. Sure enough, five minutes later, there is a knock at the door and the housekeeper presents him with the requested glass of tea. The merry-making ends immediately and the traveller finally gets his sleep.

He awakens the next morning to find himself alone, the door smashed in, and the room in complete disarray. He rushes downstairs to the housekeeper and asks "What happened? It looks like a disaster in there!" She is as surprised as he is: "You slept through all of that? The KGB were here! They took those other men away. They said to tell you not to worry, though - Comrade Major was greatly amused by your prank!"

Hah, that reminded me of an old joke on a similar topic.

A guy is riding on a crowded bus and says to his neighbor:

• Do you know why the KGB now goes among ordinary citizens in threes?
• No, why?
• One listens to what people say and tells the second one so that he can tell the third one how to write it down.
• I see!

Here his interlocutor turns around and asks the other one:
- Major Petrov, have you figured out what to tell Ivanov to record?

 

[Suzuran]

Hah, that reminded me of an old joke on a similar topic.

A guy is riding on a crowded bus and says to his neighbor:

• Do you know why the KGB now goes among ordinary citizens in threes?
• No, why?
• One listens to what people say and tells the second one so that he can tell the third one how to write it down.
• I see!

Here his interlocutor turns around and asks the other one:
- Major Petrov, have you figured out what to tell Ivanov to record?

I have heard this one too, but with the explanation "The first can read, the second can write, and the third is to keep watch over the two intelligentsia"

 

[SuperOniichan]

I have heard this one too, but with the explanation "The first can read, the second can write, and the third is to keep watch over the two intelligentsia"

This is also works, but without the unexpected punchline. Also, how do you like it?

• Comrade judge, why are you laughing so cheerfully?!
• I was just told an incredibly funny and clever joke!
• Wow, tell me too?
• Fool, I just wrote out a sentence of 10 years in the camps for this!

 

[Suzuran]

This is also works, but without the unexpected punchline. Also, how do you like it?

• Comrade judge, why are you laughing so cheerfully?!
• I was just told an incredibly funny and clever joke!
• Wow, tell me too?
• Fool, I just wrote out a sentence of 10 years in the camps for this!

"Comrade General Secretary, I am told you have a hobby?"
"Yes, I collect political anecdotes."
"How many have you collected so far?"
"Three and a half labor camps."

 

[SuperOniichan]

"Comrade General Secretary, I am told you have a hobby?"
"Yes, I collect political anecdotes."
"How many have you collected so far?"
"Three and a half labor camps."

What is the hearse race on Red Square? Answer: a series of general secretaries between Andropov and Gorbachev, who were very old and quickly left office due to death from illness.

 

[kuma]

I quoted you because you mentioned the political discourse around the Holodomor. Stalin was indeed a rather intolerant person, just remember the infamous Doctors' Plot, which was used to hit the Soviet Jewish intelligentsia. Even the part that was definitely pro-Soviet, which is why even my ultra-communist Jewish grandmother hated Stalin. But in this case it's more of a classic "don't look for great treachery where great stupidity has occurred." In Russia there is still an idiom "to help the starving Volga region", reflecting the memory of the famine in Russian regions. But many people now think that the famine occurred exclusively in Ukraine, almost on direct orders from the evil Stalin, which is caused, to put it mildly, by the peculiarity of information about the Holodomor in our days.

holodomor still very remembered in kazakh. it made them very paranoia for anything soviet and russia. they were compliance at the surface while seek safety measure. it made them minority in their own country while large chunk of northern part of country flooded by immigrant from the rest of uni soviet (mostly russian). there is reason after russian 2022 invasion of ukraine, kazakh immedietly seek security guarantor with china and sold most of it mineral exploration rights to chinese state companies. they also give unrestrictive visas to chinese nationals. some of northern city in kazakh especially in resource rich area now has sizeable chinese immigrant. it's put russia and china at odds and kazakh use it to extract concession at maximum. hence they can ditch russian language and cyrilic writing as official with no problem.