Trigger warnings
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@PantsMan
@Yautja This is MangaDex, not Baka Updates. Why should I open another site to potentially get spoiled by very specific tags? I'd much rather read umbrella terms or surf the comments.
@BestBoy
I'd definitely appreciate a warning for these. I'm the type of guy who handles gore well, but I'm not willing to read some random manga I just found while browsing in public only to have fifty pounds of guts spilling out in the first page and my parents looking at me weirdly.
Again, we covered this. We only want umbrella terms to avoid fifty thousand different tags. Thus why we reject domestic violence as physical abuse would cover that and more.
@Yautja This is MangaDex, not Baka Updates. Why should I open another site to potentially get spoiled by very specific tags? I'd much rather read umbrella terms or surf the comments.
@BestBoy
What the fk are you reading lol. Anyways, while these three examples can definitely be fetishised, I think this fits more to physical violence (and psychological?), along with gore, considering that these sound more torturous than sexy. Haven't read the manga so correct me if I'm wrong.
I'd definitely appreciate a warning for these. I'm the type of guy who handles gore well, but I'm not willing to read some random manga I just found while browsing in public only to have fifty pounds of guts spilling out in the first page and my parents looking at me weirdly.
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@Vofuro
Nah man, it's fine, I just this it's a little reductionist and inaccurate to say "I may have a point" and I pointed that out. Though I strongly disagree with the devs saying this is not the place to discuss the concept, because the accuracy of the concept does affect whether or not there is merit introducing such a change. Especially since they do something similar when discussing likes / dislikes.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
Because the change suggested is unnecessary both from a practical and conceptual point. It's already accomplished by all the tags present, is very, very subjective in what qualifies as a trigger, and BU, which is linked right on the manga's page has any possible tag that may be necessary, because while they're not trigger warnings, they cover an exceptional amount of content that story covers. It's not like you have to find the page yourself, it's right there, next to MAL and other external sites. And you can't have "trigger warnings" without what you seem to be calling "spoilers". That's literally what this suggestion is, very specific tags on things that may "trigger" people. I don't know if you've used BU, but BU has exactly that in its categories and surely isn't specific plot spoilers or what I'd generally call spoilers. You can't have your cake and eat it. What you're asking for and supporting is seemingly very contradictory; specific trigger tags, that don't "spoil" and are umbrella terms. Go to a random BU page and tell me it's got spoilers or anymore than any relevant trigger warning would.
@BestBoy
Oh please. Let's see your formal criticism of a Harvard done study by two Harvard PhD Psychology students and a prof. Cuz considering your summary, I'm not sure you understood it very well. I can't find a single credible source saying they're effective or discrediting that study, and a lot of places, even those like Slate agree with the results of that study and those like it.
Nah man, it's fine, I just this it's a little reductionist and inaccurate to say "I may have a point" and I pointed that out. Though I strongly disagree with the devs saying this is not the place to discuss the concept, because the accuracy of the concept does affect whether or not there is merit introducing such a change. Especially since they do something similar when discussing likes / dislikes.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
Because the change suggested is unnecessary both from a practical and conceptual point. It's already accomplished by all the tags present, is very, very subjective in what qualifies as a trigger, and BU, which is linked right on the manga's page has any possible tag that may be necessary, because while they're not trigger warnings, they cover an exceptional amount of content that story covers. It's not like you have to find the page yourself, it's right there, next to MAL and other external sites. And you can't have "trigger warnings" without what you seem to be calling "spoilers". That's literally what this suggestion is, very specific tags on things that may "trigger" people. I don't know if you've used BU, but BU has exactly that in its categories and surely isn't specific plot spoilers or what I'd generally call spoilers. You can't have your cake and eat it. What you're asking for and supporting is seemingly very contradictory; specific trigger tags, that don't "spoil" and are umbrella terms. Go to a random BU page and tell me it's got spoilers or anymore than any relevant trigger warning would.
@BestBoy
Oh please. Let's see your formal criticism of a Harvard done study by two Harvard PhD Psychology students and a prof. Cuz considering your summary, I'm not sure you understood it very well. I can't find a single credible source saying they're effective or discrediting that study, and a lot of places, even those like Slate agree with the results of that study and those like it.
@Vofuro
I don't think tagging things based on whether they will trigger people is a good idea.
It's not our place to police people and tell them what's "SAFE" and what's "NOT SAFE" for them.
We're not Nannys, we shouldn't babysit people and make decisions for them.
Besides, Tags are basically spoilers, the more tags you put on something, the more spoilers you are stuffing onto it, a lot of people don't like that.
I don't think tagging things based on whether they will trigger people is a good idea.
It's not our place to police people and tell them what's "SAFE" and what's "NOT SAFE" for them.
We're not Nannys, we shouldn't babysit people and make decisions for them.
Besides, Tags are basically spoilers, the more tags you put on something, the more spoilers you are stuffing onto it, a lot of people don't like that.
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@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN Steam has an ability to add custom tags, and yes, they can be used for trolling. They have a moderation team moderating tags, also. But in practice most of the time you use one of the existing pre-approved tags: https://steamdb.info/tags/. So it kinda works okay.
But the proposal is not to make open tag system, but rather cherry-pick some good tags steam already have and add content description section on the work page.
But the proposal is not to make open tag system, but rather cherry-pick some good tags steam already have and add content description section on the work page.
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The use/repurposing of the "Tragedy" tag as a possible warning, as has been suggested in some posts, would lead to some issues as Tragedy is also a genre in the Shakespearian sense.
Similarly with "Psychological" which is largely used to describe series people deem to be cerebal in some way.
So if any such tag were to be added I'd rather it be a new and distinct.
@Yautja
On the use of trigger warnings I'll have to look through the full study you linked at a later date but going through the abstract it seems the issue is largely the way content warnings are applied, rather than the concept of content warnings themselves.
(edit: a big issue with applying this study here is that the study researched the use of trigger warnings before reading a potentially disturbing passage. This situation would not be the case in this site as people can simply choose not to read a series after being warned; going even further, any such series would not even show up on the homepage or search results when users have such content blacklisted. The use of content warnings here is therefore significantly different than was tested in this study)
Additionally, the use-case for content warnings is not solely trauma victims. People like me, who thankfully haven't suffered from any specific traumas, might still use them simply because they're not necessarily interested in such content or are say, at work, or literal children. I don't think many people are triggered by smut, but they'd still like to be informed of certain content.
As for their subjectiveness, obviously this would be handled on a tag by tag basis, and still be up for review, but this thread has already come up with concrete examples of some holes in the current tags. This seems to contradict your statement that everything is already covered by the current system.
Similarly with "Psychological" which is largely used to describe series people deem to be cerebal in some way.
So if any such tag were to be added I'd rather it be a new and distinct.
@Yautja
On the use of trigger warnings I'll have to look through the full study you linked at a later date but going through the abstract it seems the issue is largely the way content warnings are applied, rather than the concept of content warnings themselves.
(edit: a big issue with applying this study here is that the study researched the use of trigger warnings before reading a potentially disturbing passage. This situation would not be the case in this site as people can simply choose not to read a series after being warned; going even further, any such series would not even show up on the homepage or search results when users have such content blacklisted. The use of content warnings here is therefore significantly different than was tested in this study)
Additionally, the use-case for content warnings is not solely trauma victims. People like me, who thankfully haven't suffered from any specific traumas, might still use them simply because they're not necessarily interested in such content or are say, at work, or literal children. I don't think many people are triggered by smut, but they'd still like to be informed of certain content.
As for their subjectiveness, obviously this would be handled on a tag by tag basis, and still be up for review, but this thread has already come up with concrete examples of some holes in the current tags. This seems to contradict your statement that everything is already covered by the current system.
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Not really, because there are other reasons to add a couple of content warning tags than just the idea of avoiding being triggered, such as just a general distaste for such subjects (or taste, for that matter). To be clear, I'm not necessarily in a disagreement with your point, I just don't see it as relevant. We already have tags and we already have the system to allow for excluding whatever tags you like. I don't see the point in allowing people to filter out Isekai but refuse to allow people to filter out Physical Abuse on the grounds that it's arguably sometimes healthy for people who don't want to see it.
Probably not since they're actual genre descriptors.
Good thing nobody's asking that that should be done and I guarantee that nothing like it is going to happen, regardless of the result of this thread.
@crazybars
yeah, no, we are not making the decisions for them, that's the point. But are tags like "physical violence", "psychological violence"and possibly "substance abuse" truly spoilers? Because then genres are even more of a spoiler, too, especially the tragedy one.
I still would like a tag for child abuse like the one in Switch Witch, because as it is - it's just a really long, really brutal description of what was done to that one girl. And I mean really nasty from the POV of the abusive father, who implied a lot of the abuse. And I'm not sure it counts as either physical violence nor sexual violence, as neither were shown. Those acts against children are not any less brutal because they are not shown, I remember another manga where there was sexual assault against a young boy, another against a teenager. Neither was graphical in any way, but still brutal. Can you consider them as "sexual violence" or "physical violence" if nothing is shown?
@Yautja
what I meant with "you may have a point" is that studys tend to be questionable. See above, where someone took the time to point out said flaws. Whether I believe it's accurate or not is pointless, I'm not a psychologist and neither are you. So that's why your opinion may be right, it might be not, but the point stands: Each person still has the right to decide when or even whether he or she wants to face it.
yeah, no, we are not making the decisions for them, that's the point. But are tags like "physical violence", "psychological violence"and possibly "substance abuse" truly spoilers? Because then genres are even more of a spoiler, too, especially the tragedy one.
I still would like a tag for child abuse like the one in Switch Witch, because as it is - it's just a really long, really brutal description of what was done to that one girl. And I mean really nasty from the POV of the abusive father, who implied a lot of the abuse. And I'm not sure it counts as either physical violence nor sexual violence, as neither were shown. Those acts against children are not any less brutal because they are not shown, I remember another manga where there was sexual assault against a young boy, another against a teenager. Neither was graphical in any way, but still brutal. Can you consider them as "sexual violence" or "physical violence" if nothing is shown?
@Yautja
what I meant with "you may have a point" is that studys tend to be questionable. See above, where someone took the time to point out said flaws. Whether I believe it's accurate or not is pointless, I'm not a psychologist and neither are you. So that's why your opinion may be right, it might be not, but the point stands: Each person still has the right to decide when or even whether he or she wants to face it.
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@Teasday So will you just be adding those same genre tags to the Content section? Or do you think their inclusion in the Genre section is enough to warn readers about certain content? Personally, I feel like its easy to overlook certain tags when you've got Demographic, Genre, and Theme all right next to each other. It's much harder to ignore them when they're set apart and in orange. You could just add Psychological Abuse and Physical Abuse to the Content section and call it a day. I think most people would be satisfied with that.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN I think it's all definitely physical abuse, but it's hard to say whether or not the genital kicking is sexual abuse. I'd say it is, but I'm not an expert. As for psychological abuse, that is also prevalent in the manga, but it's harder for me to generalize it. I think the entire motive for the antagonists is psychological abuse on the main character.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN I think it's all definitely physical abuse, but it's hard to say whether or not the genital kicking is sexual abuse. I'd say it is, but I'm not an expert. As for psychological abuse, that is also prevalent in the manga, but it's harder for me to generalize it. I think the entire motive for the antagonists is psychological abuse on the main character.
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@Vofuro
I get what you mean with the difference between like rape and sexual abuse, but I don't know if having multiple tags involving sexual misconduct is really helpful.
So then you're telling about renaming the current tag to a bigger umbrella term which is difficult because there's not really a catch-all one (sexual misconduct "only" describes everything up to sexual assault in most countries for example).
It's certainly difficult but I feel that the current "Sexual violence" is at least clear, people know what it means without getting a dictionary out, and would be fine to use in the case you mention in my view as not all violence is necessarily physical.
I get what you mean with the difference between like rape and sexual abuse, but I don't know if having multiple tags involving sexual misconduct is really helpful.
So then you're telling about renaming the current tag to a bigger umbrella term which is difficult because there's not really a catch-all one (sexual misconduct "only" describes everything up to sexual assault in most countries for example).
It's certainly difficult but I feel that the current "Sexual violence" is at least clear, people know what it means without getting a dictionary out, and would be fine to use in the case you mention in my view as not all violence is necessarily physical.
@MadeOfMagicAndWires
well yes, the rape thing went out of the window someone reminded me of that tag xD best just read the last couple of posts, it's more about possibly expanding the existing themes right now than anything else.
well yes, the rape thing went out of the window someone reminded me of that tag xD best just read the last couple of posts, it's more about possibly expanding the existing themes right now than anything else.
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Wow, this thread has exploded!
Well, I'm someone completely the opposite. I'm quite a fan of gore and the like, so I get baited by those trigger tags. But I get disappointed when people tag violence and gore and the like when there is nearly nothing to see...
So, I'm actually more scared that people would misuse the tags rather than provide information... Well, misuse might be the wrong term, but maybe overreact too much?
You know, I understand a gore tag in Offal Island where people literally swim in guts to avoid to get killed by some maniac or in Children where children slaughter humans and cannibalize them or in Pumpkin Night where a JK brutally kills his classmates in many ways, but sometimes I see that gore tag in a manga where there is only a bit of blood splattered...
Speaking of which, the whole Higurashi series is not tagged gore because the tags didn't exist yet when it was uploaded, that one kinda deserve the gore tags
Well, I'm someone completely the opposite. I'm quite a fan of gore and the like, so I get baited by those trigger tags. But I get disappointed when people tag violence and gore and the like when there is nearly nothing to see...
So, I'm actually more scared that people would misuse the tags rather than provide information... Well, misuse might be the wrong term, but maybe overreact too much?
You know, I understand a gore tag in Offal Island where people literally swim in guts to avoid to get killed by some maniac or in Children where children slaughter humans and cannibalize them or in Pumpkin Night where a JK brutally kills his classmates in many ways, but sometimes I see that gore tag in a manga where there is only a bit of blood splattered...
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Boy this thread sure is super active.
@Yautja Others already said this. The tags are there just to warn people, not necessarily the epilepsy warnings equavalent of PTSD.
@Vofuro
-Backstory of a main character (as it will probably be brought back later in the series for character development, making it recurrent and nonredundant) [tangent]
-The settings a main character regularly faces (for example "drug abuse" in a detective manga??)
And the following are examples when not to use the tag:
-Backstory of secondary character who probably won't be developed
-Short term consequences (eg. if a character barely escapes being raped it's not recurrent enough to warrant sexual violence tag)
Maybe, I'm not sure:
-Theme around a single arc but not the overall story (eg. a fantasy drug makes magic more powerful, introduced in first arc, forgotten the rest of the story, brought up again only at the final chapter) Don't do this, this is bad writing.
-Backstory of an unimportant character that turns out to have an important role in the story (eg. the fantasy drug is introduced by a side character overdosing)
@Pika Nah don't worry. Mistags will be complained so much to the point that it's unbearable to ignore the people's request. Trust the internet in this one.
@Yautja Others already said this. The tags are there just to warn people, not necessarily the epilepsy warnings equavalent of PTSD.
@Vofuro
Great point. This is where the plot point vs theme line gets blurred. Here are a few lines that could maybe warrant a tag?
-Backstory of a main character (as it will probably be brought back later in the series for character development, making it recurrent and nonredundant) [tangent]
Backstories should have the "show, don't tell" rule of worldbuilding. If the author does indeed show, it'll obviously warrant the tag. But what if the author doesn't show it out of either bad writing or just writing style, or maybe even concealing information for the sake of a plot twist? Then I'd move this down to Maybe rather than Yes.
And the following are examples when not to use the tag:
-Backstory of secondary character who probably won't be developed
-Short term consequences (eg. if a character barely escapes being raped it's not recurrent enough to warrant sexual violence tag)
Maybe, I'm not sure:
-Theme around a single arc but not the overall story (eg. a fantasy drug makes magic more powerful, introduced in first arc, forgotten the rest of the story, brought up again only at the final chapter) Don't do this, this is bad writing.
-Backstory of an unimportant character that turns out to have an important role in the story (eg. the fantasy drug is introduced by a side character overdosing)
@Pika Nah don't worry. Mistags will be complained so much to the point that it's unbearable to ignore the people's request. Trust the internet in this one.
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@MadeOfMagicAndWires
No, it's the concept. There are multiple other studies and many articles that reach the same conclusion. Trigger warnings fail or even have negative effects.
That's what a trigger warning is suppose to do, warn people so they can brace for sensitive topics. Trigger warnings aren't meant to be used to avoid triggering stuff, but as braces to help alleviate distress. The study addresses that, as does this article based on the study. As does several others. The tl;dr of those articles is, trigger warnings when used to avoid triggering topics is not healthy as it increases anxiety, has negative long term effects, and isn't proven as to whether or not actual triggering topics are avoided, just things with trigger warnings. It's a multi lose scenario, and no wins. Applying that study is certainly not incorrect or an issue for those reasons.
Simply put, trigger warnings are not effective before reading "triggering" content, and they are not healthy or effective when used to avoid material as it increases anxiety, has negative long term affects (helps real trauma fester and makes people avoid certain things by association), and is not proven in avoiding actual triggering content (things that would cause panic attacks), but just things which such labels.
That's covered by existing tags. There's no reason to call them trigger warnings. Berserk for example covers that it has Gore, Sexual Violence, Horror, Tragedy, Psychological, etc. And manga such as Nande Koki Ni Sensei Ga have a smut tag. And Baka Updates is right there, every single time, with a more comprehensive list of content than MD could reasonably reach. It's a pointless reinvention of the wheel and or ineffective and or a semantic error.
Well I sure don't see any that aren't reasonably covered by MD or Baka. And if you're referring to "cat death" trigger warnings or what not, you need to grow up. And yea, since it is entirely subjective, any given chapter could be listed as triggering one way or another. Someone actually said a cat death is triggering, and I think anyone who thinks pet death is triggering is a moron. What do we do? Is it triggering or not? It's impractical as listed by numerous people and largely obsolete considering MD's existing tags and Baka being linked. It's also counterproductive on a psychological basis.
As far as I can tell, most people in support of this post either are just using the wrong words to justify a debatable change (more tags) or are supporting pointless change with a faulty reason (trigger warning flags). The change being recommended here as I see it could be reduced to adding more comprehensive tags to help find or remove specific topics. Saying we should add "trigger warnings" to either suggest adding a flag next to chapters, or add more tags is semantically incorrect and or a bad idea because:
A) trigger warnings as used to brace people are ineffective.
B) trigger warnings as used to avoid things that cause panic attacks are not proven to be effective.
C) avoiding things that trigger you / things with trigger warnings has been proven to be counter productive and harmful in the long run.
D) Adding a specific trigger warning tag or list is pointless because of how subjective that is.
Whether or not we should add more tags or more specific tags gets into a clutter argument, something which I'm not interested in as of yet because of how fucking long this comment is and since we're not on the same page as of yet. And I want to make it clear, avoiding "triggering content" is not the same thing as avoiding things you dislike. One is unhealthy, the other is preference.
@Teasday
I think we're talking past each other. OP asks for trigger warnings. Trigger warnings are indications meant to be used to brace people for potentially triggering topics. Trigger warnings used in that domain are proven to be useless. What triggers someone is entirely subjective and thus a specific trigger warning (a flag next to a chapter, or manga) would be nonsensical as everything would end up tagged with that flag. There is no point in adding trigger warnings for those reasons. Thus, the point of hiding from triggers, or trigger warnings being effective is certainly relevant to whether or not we should add trigger warnings.
Adding more comprehensive tags is not at all what I'm talking about or what trigger warnings are. If we're going to talk about more effective black-listing or more specific tags, that's an entirely different argument than trigger warnings.
TL;DR: As I read it, OP wanted a flag next chapters or manga that indicates something is triggering (and possibly what the trigger is: Rape, etc), and that is absolutely useless since studies have proven such warnings do not reduce anxiety or have any proven effects at helping people avoid being "triggered". There is far more, and far too much detail, in my response to the guy above which covers this. Also, why would you add something that is harmful? Adding more tags is more contentious and not the same thing and not what I'm talking about.
@Vofuro
That someone hasn't read the study considering the summary he listed is not what the study does. And it's not my opinion, it's the findings of actual psychologists from Harvard. And I've listed several more studies in this post for good measure. You don't get to dismiss studies because "they tend to be questionable", a claim with very little merit mind you. I could use that same sort of logic to dismiss everything you've just said or anything anyone has used to reinforce your position. You have to point out what is incorrect about the study, either the people creating it, the methods used, the publisher, etc. or list actual studies that support the value of trigger warnings, specifically ones that come after the studies I list or counter it in name. None of which you or the other guy have done.
If you're going to suggest a change based on an idea that is proven false in several studies, and not proven effective by any studies, I'm not the one who "may have a point" or am putting out an opinion. It's you who is doing that. As things stand, while I may not be a psychologist, I have listed several studies by psychologists and articles on those studies, and yes, what I've said is accurate, regardless of your pointless beliefs.My opinion the facts are likely "right" considering I'm now up to a dozen or so articles and studies which all report the same things. You don't need to be a psychologist to understand their finds. The point and fact being, trigger warnings are useless.
And each person can do so with the existing tags or Baka Updates.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
Read the above. Good luck, it's long.
tl;dr of this fucking nightmare post: Semantics are important.
No, it's the concept. There are multiple other studies and many articles that reach the same conclusion. Trigger warnings fail or even have negative effects.
That's what a trigger warning is suppose to do, warn people so they can brace for sensitive topics. Trigger warnings aren't meant to be used to avoid triggering stuff, but as braces to help alleviate distress. The study addresses that, as does this article based on the study. As does several others. The tl;dr of those articles is, trigger warnings when used to avoid triggering topics is not healthy as it increases anxiety, has negative long term effects, and isn't proven as to whether or not actual triggering topics are avoided, just things with trigger warnings. It's a multi lose scenario, and no wins. Applying that study is certainly not incorrect or an issue for those reasons.
Simply put, trigger warnings are not effective before reading "triggering" content, and they are not healthy or effective when used to avoid material as it increases anxiety, has negative long term affects (helps real trauma fester and makes people avoid certain things by association), and is not proven in avoiding actual triggering content (things that would cause panic attacks), but just things which such labels.
That's covered by existing tags. There's no reason to call them trigger warnings. Berserk for example covers that it has Gore, Sexual Violence, Horror, Tragedy, Psychological, etc. And manga such as Nande Koki Ni Sensei Ga have a smut tag. And Baka Updates is right there, every single time, with a more comprehensive list of content than MD could reasonably reach. It's a pointless reinvention of the wheel and or ineffective and or a semantic error.
Well I sure don't see any that aren't reasonably covered by MD or Baka. And if you're referring to "cat death" trigger warnings or what not, you need to grow up. And yea, since it is entirely subjective, any given chapter could be listed as triggering one way or another. Someone actually said a cat death is triggering, and I think anyone who thinks pet death is triggering is a moron. What do we do? Is it triggering or not? It's impractical as listed by numerous people and largely obsolete considering MD's existing tags and Baka being linked. It's also counterproductive on a psychological basis.
As far as I can tell, most people in support of this post either are just using the wrong words to justify a debatable change (more tags) or are supporting pointless change with a faulty reason (trigger warning flags). The change being recommended here as I see it could be reduced to adding more comprehensive tags to help find or remove specific topics. Saying we should add "trigger warnings" to either suggest adding a flag next to chapters, or add more tags is semantically incorrect and or a bad idea because:
A) trigger warnings as used to brace people are ineffective.
B) trigger warnings as used to avoid things that cause panic attacks are not proven to be effective.
C) avoiding things that trigger you / things with trigger warnings has been proven to be counter productive and harmful in the long run.
D) Adding a specific trigger warning tag or list is pointless because of how subjective that is.
Whether or not we should add more tags or more specific tags gets into a clutter argument, something which I'm not interested in as of yet because of how fucking long this comment is and since we're not on the same page as of yet. And I want to make it clear, avoiding "triggering content" is not the same thing as avoiding things you dislike. One is unhealthy, the other is preference.
@Teasday
I think we're talking past each other. OP asks for trigger warnings. Trigger warnings are indications meant to be used to brace people for potentially triggering topics. Trigger warnings used in that domain are proven to be useless. What triggers someone is entirely subjective and thus a specific trigger warning (a flag next to a chapter, or manga) would be nonsensical as everything would end up tagged with that flag. There is no point in adding trigger warnings for those reasons. Thus, the point of hiding from triggers, or trigger warnings being effective is certainly relevant to whether or not we should add trigger warnings.
Adding more comprehensive tags is not at all what I'm talking about or what trigger warnings are. If we're going to talk about more effective black-listing or more specific tags, that's an entirely different argument than trigger warnings.
TL;DR: As I read it, OP wanted a flag next chapters or manga that indicates something is triggering (and possibly what the trigger is: Rape, etc), and that is absolutely useless since studies have proven such warnings do not reduce anxiety or have any proven effects at helping people avoid being "triggered". There is far more, and far too much detail, in my response to the guy above which covers this. Also, why would you add something that is harmful? Adding more tags is more contentious and not the same thing and not what I'm talking about.
@Vofuro
That someone hasn't read the study considering the summary he listed is not what the study does. And it's not my opinion, it's the findings of actual psychologists from Harvard. And I've listed several more studies in this post for good measure. You don't get to dismiss studies because "they tend to be questionable", a claim with very little merit mind you. I could use that same sort of logic to dismiss everything you've just said or anything anyone has used to reinforce your position. You have to point out what is incorrect about the study, either the people creating it, the methods used, the publisher, etc. or list actual studies that support the value of trigger warnings, specifically ones that come after the studies I list or counter it in name. None of which you or the other guy have done.
If you're going to suggest a change based on an idea that is proven false in several studies, and not proven effective by any studies, I'm not the one who "may have a point" or am putting out an opinion. It's you who is doing that. As things stand, while I may not be a psychologist, I have listed several studies by psychologists and articles on those studies, and yes, what I've said is accurate, regardless of your pointless beliefs.
And each person can do so with the existing tags or Baka Updates.
@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
Read the above. Good luck, it's long.
tl;dr of this fucking nightmare post: Semantics are important.
@Vofuro
@Teasday
Hmmmm,
Do you guys just wanna add more generic content tags like, Extreme Humiliation, Extreme Abuse tag or Torture tags instead then and call it a day? Those are pretty descriptive enough tag while being vague enough to know you're in for extreme content if you choose to read the work.
I think we could just shove them into the content tag alongside Gore and Smut as needed.
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Though, the tagging system is already very subjective so it's gonna be spotty either way and dependent on the guy in charge of the Title listing page anyways. For example
--> https://mangadex.org/title/31554/switch-witch
This example you gave me should probably have had the Gore tag because from what I can see, It's bascially a manga about monster human bunnies murdering Teenage children for excuse plot.
--> https://mangadex.org/title/18289/shibito-no-koe-wo-kiku-ga-yoi
Where as Shibito no Koe has torture scenes where various characters get tortured in a few chapters. Thing is though, this is a horror manga, like there's a lot of 80-90's horror movie homages to stuff like Friday the 13th, Vampires and Gore etc. Do we add a torture tag? Or does the Horror tag cover it?
@Teasday
Hmmmm,
Do you guys just wanna add more generic content tags like, Extreme Humiliation, Extreme Abuse tag or Torture tags instead then and call it a day? Those are pretty descriptive enough tag while being vague enough to know you're in for extreme content if you choose to read the work.
I think we could just shove them into the content tag alongside Gore and Smut as needed.
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Though, the tagging system is already very subjective so it's gonna be spotty either way and dependent on the guy in charge of the Title listing page anyways. For example
--> https://mangadex.org/title/31554/switch-witch
This example you gave me should probably have had the Gore tag because from what I can see, It's bascially a manga about monster human bunnies murdering Teenage children for excuse plot.
--> https://mangadex.org/title/18289/shibito-no-koe-wo-kiku-ga-yoi
Where as Shibito no Koe has torture scenes where various characters get tortured in a few chapters. Thing is though, this is a horror manga, like there's a lot of 80-90's horror movie homages to stuff like Friday the 13th, Vampires and Gore etc. Do we add a torture tag? Or does the Horror tag cover it?
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Is there anyone NOT from first world countries here who's in support of this suggestion?
I'm just curious since this suggestion reeks first world problem a lot.
I'm just curious since this suggestion reeks first world problem a lot.
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It doesn't really matter what the OP wants (or rather wanted originally). I've already stated that we're not going to implement any new features to accomodate this stuff, especially since the Content tag category was created essentially exactly for this reason. Yes, the argument is different now. It's about what tags to add. The discussion already moved to that direction pages ago.
I don't know how many times I'm going to have to repeat this. You could give me a study proving beyond the shadow of a doubt that homophobes reading yaoi leads to world peace and we still wouldn't remove the tag or make it impossible to exclude yaoi manga.
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