Until I Become Me - Vol. 3 Ch. 39

[Astra_Starwalker]

No, it’s people who think that men’s rights need advocacy on any level.
People who say things like “men don’t come forward as often as women, because people believe women” which is just wild, or even say that women accusing men of rape is a problem.
Like, what kind of jackass would say that?

The kind of jackass that actually has seen articles and heard news and personal stories about exactly these types of things happening.

 

[Thrembs]

The kind of jackass that actually has seen articles and heard news and personal stories about exactly these types of things happening.

Anecdotal evidence does not speak to a trend.
Statistics say this is not a severe problem in comparison.

I said victim blaming is a problem on both sides, but for different reasons.

Statistically men commit assault more often due to a culture of misogyny and object that leads to poor expectations of oneself and of women.
Similarly, there’s an expectation of men to always say yes and to be stronger than women, but that isn’t going to lead to being not believed, but more likely shamed for not being masculine enough to stand up to a woman.

Fix the culture, fix both problems, but the statistics don’t lie, and women have been shamed, disgraced, and told not to report things since time immemorial AND STILL HAVE HIGHER RATES OF BEING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.
Women have been treated as “evil temptresses” since biblical times, and so get blamed for their own assaults and sometimes get treated as though they were assaulted… and still have higher rates of assault, spousal abuse/rape etc.

”Here are a few examples of something really fucked up happening“ yeah, well here’s way more of the other on any legal records of any country ever.

To look at all the evidence, with thousands of years of men so in charge they bought and sold women and say “men have it worse” is so obtuse its nearly 180°

Know how many times I was catcalled and cornered or even hit on when I was under the impression I was or was basically a man? Like 7 In 35 years, three were men. Was assaulted by a female teacher as a child (System swept it under the rug, parents went along with it because they’re awful), and pressured into a relationship with a woman (second person I ever dated because shit’s confusing). I was also assaulted by a man in that time. I didn’t report that because of pure shame and being raised to not talk about such things.

In 4.5 years living as a woman I was harassed by multiple men, stared at by A LOT and cornered by one more (luckily he was all talk and thought he was being smooth. When I just showed annoyance he left after a few minutes of “hollerin”) I wouldn’t even put myself in “very good looking“ camp. It was just when I was dressed for warm weather or anything at all revealing. “I see boobs or legs. I’m gonna say I want access to them, in public.”

I know how the systems and expectations screw things up both ways, but When it went from 4 bad experiences in 35 years to many more than that in just a few… yeah. Even anecdotally it plays out the same numbers.

I dress more modestly these days, but thats for religious reasons. My choice.
Almost everything stopped. Women shouldn’t have to dress like a middle-aged Jewish mom (which I am, but that’s not the point) in order to get men to stop trying to or saying they want access to their bodies.

I know both sides of the problem. The statistics still don’t lie.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

Anecdotal evidence does not speak to a trend.
Statistics say this is not a severe problem in comparison.

I said victim blaming is a problem on both sides, but for different reasons.

Statistically men commit assault more often due to a culture of misogyny and object that leads to poor expectations of oneself and of women.
Similarly, there’s an expectation of men to always say yes and to be stronger than women, but that isn’t going to lead to being not believed, but more likely shamed for not being masculine enough to stand up to a woman.

Fix the culture, fix both problems, but the statistics don’t lie, and women have been shamed, disgraced, and told not to report things since time immemorial AND STILL HAVE HIGHER RATES OF BEING SEXUALLY ASSAULTED.
Women have been treated as “evil temptresses” since biblical times, and so get blamed for their own assaults and sometimes get treated as though they were assaulted… and still have higher rates of assault, spousal abuse/rape etc.

”Here are a few examples of something really fucked up happening“ yeah, well here’s way more of the other on any legal records of any country ever.

To look at all the evidence, with thousands of years of men so in charge they bought and sold women and say “men have it worse” is so obtuse its nearly 180°

Who is saying men has it worse?

 

[Thrembs]

However, I did spot something about "statistics for sexual assault," so I'm going to assume you are trying to claim that women experience sexual assault far more than men experience sexual assault, and while that may be somewhat true, there are also far more men out there who have experienced sexual assault but do not report it to the police than there are women.

…where it is very easy for a woman to accuse a man of sexually assaulting her even though the man is actually innocent, only for the judge and/or he jury to take the woman's side because people are still more willing to believe the woman than the man.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

I ask again, who is saying men has it worse?
What you just quoted says nothing of the sort.

 

[Thrembs]

Who is saying men has it worse?

you

However, I did spot something about "statistics for sexual assault," so I'm going to assume you are trying to claim that women experience sexual assault far more than men experience sexual assault, and while that may be somewhat true, there are also far more men out there who have experienced sexual assault but do not report it to the police than there are women

…where it is very easy for a woman to accuse a man of sexually assaulting her even though the man is actually innocent, only for the judge and/or he jury to take the w
oman's side because people are still more willing to believe the woman than the man.

Emphasis mine.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

you

Again, I ask again, who is saying men has it worse?
What you just quoted says nothing of the sort.

 

[Thrembs]

Again, I ask again, who is saying men has it worse?
What you just quoted says nothing of the sort.

…it literally does. I even put things in italics.
You said more men don’t report it than women, and that women have it easier in the legal system.
No evidence for either is even out there, let alone given.

I wouldn’t even know where to start with evidence for my statements. They’re on every legal record of every country ever.

You’re amazingly delusional. I added more context to something above in an edit.
Know how many unreported rapes I’ve heard about from other women in my life? 6 at least.
Men? 1. By another man.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

…it literally does. I even put things in italics.
You said more men don’t report it than women, and that women have it easier in the legal system.
No evidence for either is even out there, let alone given.

I wouldn’t even know where to start with evidence for my statements. They’re on every legal record of every country ever.

You’re amazingly delusional. I added more context to something above in an edit.
Know how many unreported rapes I’ve heard about from other women in my life? 6 at least.
Men? 1. By another man.

Less men reporting experiences that they have had than one might think:
Underreporting among males likely due to gender-based stigma
https://marquettewire.org/3988006/news/underreporting-among-males-likely-due-to-gender-based-stigma/

When Men Are Raped
A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators.
https://slate.com/human-interest/20...ually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

Look, I don't really understand why we are even doing this...
It's a fact that both men and women experience sexual assault in their life, and sexual harassment, too.
Disregarding men's experiences simply because they are men is a very dangerous view to have, and their experiences shouldn't be made fun of any more than the experiences of women.
In fact, if we really want to get down into it, it is often more dangerous for a man to experience sexual harassment or assault than women.

This is because women have a significantly wider and better range of sources for support after the fact than men have.
Men will often rather choose to keep everything secret, for fear that they will be viewed as weak, or a liar because the assaulting person was a woman, and if they do come out to their friends about their experience, they might risk being mocked or teased because they wouldn't be believed, only to then be left with very few options for support.

This is not to say that the experiences of women aren't as traumatizing as - or more so than - men's experiences, just that women have a higher likelihood of being able to work their way through the trauma in a proper and safe manner than what a man would be able to.

 

[Thrembs]

Less men reporting experiences that they have had than one might think:
Underreporting among males likely due to gender-based stigma
https://marquettewire.org/3988006/news/underreporting-among-males-likely-due-to-gender-based-stigma/

When Men Are Raped
A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators.
https://slate.com/human-interest/20...ually-assaulted-almost-as-often-as-women.html

Look, I don't really understand why we are even doing this...
It's a fact that both men and women experience sexual assault in their life, and sexual harassment, too.
Disregarding men's experiences simply because they are men is a very dangerous view to have, and their experiences shouldn't be made fun of any more than the experiences of women.
In fact, if we really want to get down into it, it is often more dangerous for a man to experience sexual harassment or assault than women.

This is because women have a significantly wider and better range of sources for support after the fact than men have.
Men will often rather choose to keep everything secret, for fear that they will be viewed as weak, or a liar because the assaulting person was a woman, and if they do come out to their friends about their experience, they might risk being mocked or teased because they wouldn't be believed, only to then be left with very few options for support.

This is not to say that the experiences of women aren't as traumatizing as - or more so than - men's experiences, just that women have a higher likelihood of being able to work their way through the trauma in a proper and safe manner than what a man would be able to.

😐
We’re doing this because I made a joke trying to lighten the mood a bit about THE SUBJECT OF THE CHAPTER, and you said “you always have to tell both versions of a story if different groups experience the same thing.”

I know exactly about the mental health resources. I thought that was pretty dang obvious based on what I’ve already said.
Men are still more dangerous than women, on average. Statistics are real.

and you’re still saying “men have it worse.” Over and over. You keep going harder on that.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

and you’re still saying “men have it worse.” Over and over. You keep going harder on that.

You keep claiming I am saying "Men have it worse," I keep asking where you got that from, and you keep quoting or referring to something that doesn't say "men have it worse," can you please stop doing that, and finally show me where I have ever actually said men have it worse?

 

[Thrembs]

You keep claiming I am saying "Men have it worse," I keep asking where you got that from, and you keep quoting or referring to something that doesn't say "men have it worse," can you please stop doing that, and finally show me where I have ever actually said men have it worse?

Ok, you’re trolling. You have to be.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

Ok, you’re trolling. You have to be.

No, I am absolutely not.
What I am doing is trying to make you realize that you are twisting my words to suit your agenda.
I never once said that men have it worse than women.
Even if less men than women report their sexual assault experiences, that doesn't at all mean that men have it worse than women.
However, as I did mention, one aspect of sexual assault where men actually do have it worse is what comes after the sexual assault. That's simply because there are far more resources for women to look to for working through the trauma that the sexual assault caused them, than there are the same type of resources for men.

But that doesn't mean that men have it worse than women during the sexual assault.
And it's even very hard to determine whether men have it worse than women or women have it worse than men in this case, because you never provided a context for what constituted "having it worse."

 

[JayJay_Tracer]

I never once said that men have it worse than women.

Yes you did. And she quoted you explicitly saying that.

You're a massive dumbass doing a whataboutism all over this thread.

You think "men must not have it any better", because then all the resentment many women feel towards men would be justified.

Men get believed more than women. Look at the Johnny Depp case. He was proven to be an abuser, but people really wanted to believe that he didn't do anything and that it was actually the woman who was the abuser that they gaslit themselves into forgetting all the evidence of his abuse. The American legal system being fucked sure didn't help either.

 

[Astra_Starwalker]

Yes you did. And she quoted you explicitly saying that.

You're a massive dumbass doing a whataboutism all over this thread.

You think "men must not have it any better", because then all the resentment many women feel towards men would be justified.

Men get believed more than women. Look at the Johnny Depp case. He was proven to be an abuser, but people really wanted to believe that he didn't do anything and that it was actually the woman who was the abuser that they gaslit themselves into forgetting all the evidence of his abuse. The American legal system being fucked sure didn't help either.

Feel free to read whatever you wish from what I wrote, it won't make you right, but I won't stop you, I just won't respond past this comment because I am already finished with it all, and I advice you to move on, too.

 

[Hmph_]

It was fun reading the arguments in this comment section. Please continue the pointless discussion in the other chapters as well.

 

[Trevoga]

Sometimes these forums amaze me.

 

[WhiteHalo2196]

I’ve been Jewish for years.

imagine thinking you have the right to criticise anyone when you follow a religion that endorses genital mutilation.

 

[Thrembs]

imagine thinking you have the right to criticise anyone when you follow a religion that endorses genital mutilation.

It causes no harm and reduces the chance of STIs and UTIs.
3000 years and we’ve been fine, pro sex-for-pleasure, increasingly egalitarian and queer-accepting.


And we are still here while every group of antisemites (hi there!) that’s come after us is gone.
But sure, removing a little useless little skin makes us terrible.

Imma ignore you, now. So that’s two reasons you’re a not-see.

 

[ariel_haymarket]

antisemitism

What in the g-d-damn hell is (1) your point (2) wrong with you?

{Skyler, if you're using a VPN to harass people about this, you're not being smart}