Useless Ponko - Vol. 6 Ch. 40 - Ponpoko Ponko

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@Betony same. that page of ponko looking around for help and realizing she was on her own broke my heart...

re: grandpa pushover, i think its more of a plot device than anything. it needed to happen so ponko could grow. if he protected her she wouldn't have said "no". shitty of gen, but think of it as the author needing to do it to progress the plot.
 
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One chapter and we have a character on the same level of hate as Melty. Fucking hell man. Fuck her. Hope she gets eaten by a bear or something
 
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@Oeconomist
man this interface is a pain.
let`s cut down some branches

you started with a statement on the authors moral character.
Unfortunately, in other manga, this mangaka has exhibited a broken moral compass; so I am not hopeful about a a proper resolution, though I certainly don't expect overt tragedy.

I asked for clarification on this.
In what sense?

and your explanation for this was a reference to the first chapter, and noting that another work was "quite cruel" with out much detail
The comment to which you responded refers to other manga, but in this manga, I would note as an example Ponko literally having to beg not to be destroyed in the first episode. (Just how rotten would Yoshioka have to be for it to get to that point?) For an example of the other manga to which I referred, see Koishikawa-san Is a Carnivore, which is quite cruel.

I find this insufficient to make the judgement that the author has a broken moral character.

@TrueGoddessReincarnation
I wil keep that in mind.
 
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@RanaRana
I asked for clarification on this.
In what sense?
and your explanation for this was a reference to the first chapter, and noting that another work was "quite cruel" with out much detai
No. When you asked for a clarification, my answer was in the comment in reply:
Then you asked
Can you name specifics?
Been a while since I read this.
Now, how long it had been since you'd read any part of this manga had no direct bearing on my original statement, which referred to “other manga”. So I gave you the specific
For an example of the other manga to which I referred, see Koishikawa-san Is a Carnivore, which is quite cruel.
But also noted the cruelty in chapter 1 of this manga.
with out much detail
And, even without my going into much detail, you've responded to cause this discussion to mushroom.
I find this insufficient to make the judgement that the author has a broken moral character.
If sufficient cause for such a judgment were what you had wanted in the first place, then that's what you should have requested in the first place. I might have attempted it at the outset, had you done so, though now, judging by your getting multiple simple issues about plain matters of fact wrong, I don't think that a discussion with you about morality would be constructive. It really seems that you
and were simply trying in bad faith to bait me. *shrug*
 
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Welp, I expected there to be whining over the character of the mother, instead we have complaints over morality in comedy.
@Oeconomist, from your comments it seems you've misunderstood a central feature of the source of the comedy in this title. Ponko is a robot. Robots do not have moral agency, and are not entitled to moral consideration. To a rational person in-universe, Ponko should have the moral agency of a toothbrush. The fact that she is a moral agent with dreams and whims is in itself comedy, and in fact this chapter she even experiences envy and selfishness which is absurd for a robot maid.
Also, the fact that an old man intent on not being sentimental, *even towards his grief for his late wife*, finds himself feel morally obligated at all to keep a clearly "defective" robot is in itself comedy, and so too is his obvious sentimentality towards her. The fact that Yoshioka struggles in this regard constantly, and stubbornly reverts to his grumpy state is comedy. The fact that in this chapter he can't sacrifice his pride to defend his broken mechanical maid, *despite clearly wanting to*, is comedy.
 
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ok, i went back to check:

in chapter five, gen learns from ponko's evaluation form that chiaki was the one who contracted ponko.

he calls his son who says "we don't know the details, we just know mom said that 'she would be perfect for you'."

so yes. gen knows chiaki wanted ponko to live with him, but i don't believe he knows where ponko and chiaki met, because when he asked her, she couldn't remember.

edit: in chapter 17 he looks at chiaki's portrait and says "thats ... the robot you chose"
 
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I understand Yuuna being so browbeaten by her mom that she has trouble standing up to her, but it seems like grandpa could have stepped up for Ponko a little more.
 
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@gronkle
Robots do not have moral agency, and are not entitled to moral consideration.
That thesis begs a central question. There are people perfectly sure that human beings also cannot be moral agents, for much the same reasons that some are sure that robots cannot be. That is to say that they believe that a human being is, ipso facto, an assembly of physical processes that are merely mindlessly stochastic if-and-when they are not every bit as deterministic as machines are normally conceived to be.
The fact that she is a moral agent with dreams and whims is in itself comedy, and in fact this chapter she even experiences envy and selfishness which is absurd for a robot maid.
For the aforementioned people who reject the possible moral agency of human beings, the idea of any human being who were a moral agent might likewise be comedy. In any case, while if one holds fast to the notion that IRL robots cannot have moral agency then one might find comedy in the notion of a robot with moral agency, that doesn't obviate the point that, within the framework of the story, we have a moral agent threatened with destruction, and another moral agent who maintains that threat when he should not. Some of the relevant moral judgments are likewise to be made on the presumption that this robot is a moral agent.

So, nope. This matter isn't one of my misunderstanding sources of comedy.
 
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@Oeconomist if you are sure that conscious beings as a class cannot be moral agents, then you probably do not understand the inherent comedy I am referring to, and I excuse you from my expectation of understanding it. That's that. However, the philosophical framework at play here is not difficult to understand, and is very common.

If, within a universe where self-guided behaviour within a robot was deemed defective, and one ascribed that to "personality", that would be one thing. However, it has been clear that the earlier incarnations, of which Ponko is one, were susceptible to freedom of thought, and that was deemed unwanted. Not that freedom of thought is not wanted, but that it is likely that moral agency in a mechanical being is unethical.
Ponko *should not be* a moral agent. She is like a clock given sentience. And yet it is her inherent imperfections that give her character and the illusion or determinants of moral agency. Her *actual* moral agency is always up for debate, because she is not alive. The fact that an old grumpy man gives her that agency despite that is a central theme.
 
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@gronkle
if you are sure that conscious beings as a class cannot be moral agents
At issue wasn't what I believe with certainty, but the basis for the certainty of some that robots cannot have consciousness. Typically, that basis is exactly the same as the basis that some have for believing that the apparent consciousness of human beings doesn't have the character that others impute to it.

Your earlier claim was
Robots do not have moral agency, and are not entitled to moral consideration.
And, as I said, this begged a central question. Now you write
Her *actual* moral agency is always up for debate, because she is not alive.
Even with this far weaker claim, you are still at least tolerating a begging of the question. Again, there are people who will insist that the distinction between things that we classify as biologic and machines isn't based on an objectively essential distinction, that organisms and machines are reducible to the same fundamental components and processes. And there will be those who insist that robots may have all the relevant properties of whatever is meant by “alive” and that Ponko is to that extent alive.

In any case, whatever may be the real-world limitations of electronic artificial intelligence, the intention is that the audience see Ponko as a person, even if one sees it as comedic that personhood should arise in such a form.
The fact that an old grumpy man gives her that agency despite that is a central theme.
More accurately put, the theme is that he increasing adopts such an imputation. (There are many analogous works of science fiction in which one of two lifeforms increasingly adopts such an imputation about the other. And there is no small number of works outside of science fiction about persons of one ethnic group increasingly imputing personhood to a member of another.) But that point is in no sense a refutation of my earlier remarks, nor otherwise a substantiation of your initial claim that I've somehow misunderstood this story.
 
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So grandpa ends up being a mushy pushover, after all; how disappointing. What is so god-awfully embarrassing about singing and dancing? Is the family part of some elite caste whom are not allowed to participate in local festivals? The mother character is a type that is so irritating: they are so stupid that they don't understand that pushing their kids to the brink of depression through isolation and intense study only breeds resentment once the child grows up or breaks away. Will the kid grow up and get a good job? Maybe, if they don't end up hating everything or feeling like they've wasted their youth away. It is a completely selfish personality that I cannot abide, regardless of what 'good intentions' are implied.
 

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