Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Vol. 2 Ch. 10

[BobTheSkrull]

You say this decision doesn't affect other but the presence of biological male in woman sports says otherwise. Or how about that one time an actual man went into the woman changing room in Planet Fitness claiming to identify as a woman? And the worst part is, the actual woman that reported it is the one who got her membership revoked as if she's the one in wrong for wanting privacy and safety. How about the Tickle vs Giggle case? A biological male (which isn't supposed to be related to someone self identity) suing a woman for creating an app for biological male.

So tell me again how their "self identity" doesn't affect anyone else. And shout-out to @ErikTheRed , @Andigo and @BobTheSkrull . Here's another comment you can react as you seethe in anger lol. Especially you Bob. Outed yourself as a misogynist and got so angry you blamed me for it

Edit: sorry I forgot about you @ArcadeAcedia . Don't blame me, you never presented any points like a mature adult would lol.

Oh neat, I don't get notifications for user mentions.

I'm not sure if I've ever seen someone make the claim of "you must be mad haha" that wasn't just projecting or highly inept at reading people. My entire last reply to you was dripping in sarcasm, so it could really be either here. If I was pissed, I'd revert to cyberstalking like I do with that French fuck from the Danmachi fandom that is an actual misogynist. Me using reactions is more just general disapproval of someone I know I can't convince.

Like, I figured you were just some altright douche at first, because there's no way someone with an ideology that descends directly from second wave feminism would ever have an avatar from MonMuso. An altright guy I can potentially convince, as it's possible they're just misinformed/never did any science past high school biology. A terf is a lost cause.

Feel free to explain to me why forcing trans men to play in women's sports is preferable to trans women, though.

 

[Sonaldo]

Oh neat, I don't get notifications for user mentions.

Oh hey mr misogynist is here. Another question, does a sex toy that arouse your sexual instinct counts as woman?

I'm not sure if I've ever seen someone make the claim of "you must be mad haha" that wasn't just projecting or highly inept at reading people. My entire last reply to you was dripping in sarcasm, so it could really be either here. If I was pissed, I'd revert to cyberstalking like I do with that French fuck from the Danmachi fandom that is an actual misogynist.

Bro is yapping random nonsense 💀

Me using reactions is more just general disapproval of someone I know I can't convince.

Oh dont worry. I'm convinced you're a misogynist that sees woman only as sexual outlet 👍

Like, I figured you were just some altright douche at first, because there's no way someone with an ideology that descends directly from second wave feminism would ever have an avatar from MonMuso.

Blud think my manga reader profile picture means anything 💀.

An altright guy I can potentially convince, as it's possible they're just misinformed/never did any science past high school biology. A terf is a lost cause.

A terf is a thousand times better than a misogynist that thinks woman are just sexual outlets 😉

Feel free to explain to me why forcing trans men to play in women's sports is preferable to trans women, though.

Because they're woman. Does that answer your question? And no, just because you're not sexually attracted to them doesn't mean they're not woman. We're not going by your misogynist definitions here buddy.

 

[Sonaldo]

Tread on thee, but not on me. It's their mantra.

Do you want examples of those decisions affecting other people?

 

[BobTheSkrull]

Oh hey mr misogynist is here. Another question, does a sex toy that arouse your sexual instinct counts as woman?

Bro is yapping random nonsense 💀

Oh dont worry. I'm convinced you're a misogynist that sees woman only as sexual outlet 👍

Blud think my manga reader profile picture means anything 💀.

A terf is a thousand times better than a misogynist that thinks woman are just sexual outlets 😉

Because they're woman. Does that answer your question? And no, just because you're not sexually attracted to them doesn't mean they're not woman. We're not going by your misogynist definitions here buddy.

I figured you'd ignore most of what I said, so let's focus on the point you're trying to dance around.

Can you detect any potential issues that would result from making someone on TRT, which is already enough to make them competitive in men's sports, compete in women's sports?

 

[omae_Is_You]

Feel free to explain to me why forcing trans men to play in women's sports is preferable to trans women, though.

The thing is, nobody is forcing trans "men" to play in women's sports. They were outright banned from the division for being drugged-up females (testosterone is considered a performance enhancer, not to mention that there are testosterone regulations/limits in women's athletics). That said, the reason men's sports athletes don't mind female trans presence in their division is because men don't find the female trans presence as a threat in the competition.

In contrast, people are against having trans "women" in women's sports because they still have the male baseline physical advantages (bigger & higher baseline bone density, broader shoulder which led to better pushing and pulling actions using the arms and trunk, stronger ligament that give advantages in throwing, kicking and hitting) over actual women despite already being on HRT. The advantages male trans have led the general public to conclude it's unfair to pit biological women against them.

Clearly, the best way to solve this issue is by strictly limiting women's sports to biological women. The trans either have to compete in men's sports or make their own division.

 

[Sonaldo]

The thing is, nobody is forcing trans "men" to play in women's sports. They were outright banned from the division for being drugged-up females (testosterone is considered a performance enhancer, not to mention that there are testosterone regulations/limits in women's athletics). That said, the reason men's sports athletes don't mind female trans presence in their division is because men don't find the female trans presence as a threat in the competition.

In contrast, people are against having trans "women" in women's sports because they still have the male baseline physical advantages (bigger & higher baseline bone density, broader shoulder which led to better pushing and pulling actions using the arms and trunk, stronger ligament that give advantages in throwing, kicking and hitting) over actual women despite already being on HRT. The advantages male trans have led the general public to conclude it's unfair to pit biological women against them.

Clearly, the best way to solve this issue is by strictly limiting women's sports to biological women. The trans either have to compete in men's sports or make their own division.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received

Remember this? It's crazy that society has regressed to this illogical state. The men division is actually an open division. Literally any gender can enter it.

 

[Sonaldo]

I figured you'd ignore most of what I said, so let's focus on the point you're trying to dance around.

I didn't ignore anything. I gave a straight answer. How typical for a misogynist to disregard something because it doesn't fit their views lol

Can you detect any potential issues that would result from making someone on TRT, which is already enough to make them competitive in men's sports, compete in women's sports?

No because they're still woman. Not to mention the number of transmen competing in the man division is abysmally small to begin with making your point about transmen competitive in men's sport illogical. Genuinely asking, name one major,well known transmen athlete please

Also, why are you talking about this? We're talking about transwoman in woman sports lol.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

The thing is, nobody is forcing trans "men" to play in women's sports. They were outright banned from the division for being drugged-up females (testosterone is considered a performance enhancer, not to mention that there are testosterone regulations/limits in women's athletics). That said, the reason men's sports athletes don't mind female trans presence in their division is because men don't find the female trans presence as a threat in the competition.

In contrast, people are against having trans "women" in women's sports because they still have the male baseline physical advantages (bigger & higher baseline bone density, broader shoulder which led to better pushing and pulling actions using the arms and trunk, stronger ligament that give advantages in throwing, kicking and hitting) over actual women despite already being on HRT. The advantages male trans have led the general public to conclude it's unfair to pit biological women against them.

Correct, cis men don't feel threatened by trans men, which is why my point is how little of these fears are based in reality. If they were, cis men would be just as concerned, given that the physical scores of trans men and women hold the same increases and decreases from the physical scores of cis men and women.

(this is the follow-up study to the one usually cited, Roberts TA, 2021)

You'd think that cis men would be more concerned about this.

But hey, let's pretend that they are concerned about this, and we go more in your proposed direction. Because trans men are clearly just using steroids, let's say they only compete with cis women pre-transition. Surely there's no issues there, right?

I lied. Yeah, as it turns out, trans men tend to already perform significantly better than cis women, even before starting treatment.

Damn, I guess the only way to address this, in accordance with your beliefs, is to be far more liberal with the use of puberty blockers from a young age, to prevent these advantages from manifesting.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

I didn't ignore anything. I gave a straight answer. How typical for a misogynist to disregard something because it doesn't fit their views lol

No because they're still woman. Not to mention the number of transmen competing in the man division is abysmally small to begin with making your point about transmen competitive in men's sport illogical. Genuinely asking, name one major,well known transmen athlete please

Also, why are you talking about this? We're talking about transwoman in woman sports lol.

Iszac Henig. AKA the trans man that, before he transitioned, beat out Lia Thomas (the one y'all always bring up), after she transitioned.

I bring this up because it's the consequence of your preferred actions. If you don't believe that trans women should participate in women's sports, then that means you believe trans men should participate in women's sports, despite outperforming cis women at every turn (graphs linked in my comment to @omae_Is_You, who I'll give credit for at least pretending to engage with the question).

 

[Sonaldo]

Iszac Henig. AKA the trans man that, before he transitioned, beat out Lia Thomas (the one y'all always bring up), after she transitioned.

This is literally the first time I've read that name. What competition did he win? Not to mention that's literally just one name lol. Genuinely asking, is that your only example? Because if it is, you just proven my point. The number of transmen in man sports is abysmally low compared to transwoman in woman sports. Thank you I guess mr misogynist

I bring this up because it's the consequence of your preferred actions. If you don't believe that trans women should participate in women's sports, then that means you believe trans men should participate in women's sports, despite outperforming cis women at every turn (graphs linked in my comment to @omae_Is_You, who I'll give credit for at least pretending to engage with the question).

A few cherrypicked study isn't proof lol. The "graphs" you posted is also so weird from a technical standpoint. Like what exactly does the y-axis represent? It literally looks like something someone can do in excel in like 5 minutes lol. How are the datas even collected? Genuinely asking, that's supposed to be from a peer reviewed study?

Real life example. Another one.

Also like I said, we're talking about transwoman in woman sports so stop bringing up transman in men sports. Fun fact, the man division is actually an open one. Woman, transwoman, transman, non binary or whatever stuff you people can come up with can enter it.

Edit: I found out the "study" and it's worse than I thought. Actual excerpt from it,

"29 transmen and 46 transwomen who started gender affirming hormones while in the United States Air Force"

Lol. If you actually think that's supposed to proof your point, I genuinely don't think there's no point convincing you. Tbf, I should've given up on it after you unironically defined woman based on how sexually attractive they are to you lol 😂.

 

[omae_Is_You]

(this is the follow-up study to the one usually cited, Roberts TA, 2021)

Care to share the link to the source of the study?

Damn, I guess the only way to address this, in accordance with your beliefs, is to be far more liberal with the use of puberty blockers from a young age, to prevent these advantages from manifesting.

People already point out that the trans competing in the men's divisions is already enough to eliminate the issue and yet, you still think drugging children will be the one to solve the problem. How fitting.

 

[Sonaldo]

Care to share the link to the source of the study?


People already point out that the trans competing in the men's divisions is already enough to eliminate the issue and yet, you still think drugging children will be the one to solve the problem. How fitting.

Like I said in my comment, the study is far worse than I thought. Here. Very small sample size and not at all representative of the general population nor an athlete.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

People already point out that the trans competing in the men's divisions is already enough to eliminate the issue and yet, you still think drugging children will be the one to solve the problem. How fitting.

I think if children can be helped with medication, then they should take that medication. If you're so worried about puberty related changes, why wouldn't you want this?

 

[BobTheSkrull]

This is literally the first time I've read that name. What competition did he win? Not to mention that's literally just one name lol. Genuinely asking, is that your only example? Because if it is, you just proven my point.

Genuinely asking, name one major,well known transmen athlete please

Been genuinely thinking you're more of a troll than a terf for a bit now, but in any case, here's his record: https://yalebulldogs.com/sports/womens-swimming-and-diving/roster/iszac-henig/17380

There's also Mack Beggs, who went 57-0 one year and 32-0 another year because Texas law forced him into the women's wrestling league. Before you ask, he was on hormone blockers, so any advantage he must have had was purely from whatever differences there are between cis women and trans men.

The number of transmen in man sports is abysmally low compared to transwoman in woman sports. Thank you I guess mr misogynist

https://web.archive.org/web/2020080...wnloadpdf/journals/jpah/17/6/article-p650.pdf I know, a sample size of 212 isn't much, but it'll have to do.

A few cherrypicked study isn't proof lol. The "graphs" you posted is also so weird from a technical standpoint. Like what exactly does the y-axis represent? It literally looks like something someone can do in excel in like 5 minutes lol. How are the datas even collected? Genuinely asking, that's supposed to be from a peer reviewed study?

Real life example. Another one.

Also like I said, we're talking about transwoman in woman sports so stop bringing up transman in men sports. Fun fact, the man division is actually an open one. Woman, transwoman, transman, non binary or whatever stuff you people can come up with can enter it.

Edit: I found out the "study" and it's worse than I thought. Actual excerpt from it,

"29 transmen and 46 transwomen who started gender affirming hormones while in the United States Air Force"

Lol. If you actually think that's supposed to proof your point, I genuinely don't think there's no point convincing you. Tbf, I should've given up on it after you unironically defined woman based on how sexually attractive they are to you lol 😂.

It's almost as though it's such a small subset of the population that it's difficult to get proper sample sizes for. Still, I'll take my sample size of 75 in physical conditioning tests covering several different areas over your sample size of 1 in boxing and 5 in soccer.

In any case, I think I've made my point well enough. Not to you, but that was never the goal. It's always been about convincing the audience.

Have a good one, and my recommendation for convincing people you're a terf and not a troll in the future would be to swap your avatar for something from Revolutionary Girl Utena or Omae Gotoki. Picking something that seems to be in direct opposition to second wave feminism doesn't really help your case.

 

[LewynMartell]

She didn't say anything transphobic though? She stated facts bluntly, nothing else.

Maybe it's a translation or language thing, but trying to paint womanhood as being unachievable when you were born as a male is pretty transphobic. Of course, your body won't be the "same" as that of a cis woman but that was no way to put it. Cutting off her penis, getting surgeries and hormone replacement would leave her feeling like a woman. That argument was not well put at all even from a "we're talking only facts here" point of view. If you want to discuss the challenges a trans woman faces, that is another conversation that they weren't having because the mom just shot that down with "that wouldn't be the same".

Ultimately, I think it was extremely needed to have the character thinking about their new body as something else than just something to get rid of (as I said.. I want her to keep being a guy with a female/male mind). It is worth saying that she is being hasty with the decision. But she started that conversation in a pretty transphobic way. Again: I'm the one that wants the character to blur the lines between masculine and feminine, but if she was adamant to being just a girl, that is perfectly achievable and she would not be less of a girl because she had to get it artificially.

 

[omae_Is_You]

I think if children can be helped with medication, then they should take that medication. If you're so worried about puberty related changes, why wouldn't you want this?

Didn't the use of those drugs affect the growth of their genitals and may outright sterilize them if overused? Isn't there one of those trans kids having trouble with the bottom surgery because his penis is too small to perform vaginoplasty? Hell, even the UK chose to ban those drugs because not enough evidence they are safe or effective.

And I could see why you refused to share the source of study you gave.

 

[Sonaldo]

Maybe it's a translation or language thing, but trying to paint womanhood as being unachievable when you were born as a male is pretty transphobic.

So telling the truth is transphobic now?

Of course, your body won't be the "same" as that of a cis woman but that was no way to put it.

That's literally the only way to put it.

Cutting off her penis, getting surgeries and hormone replacement would leave her feeling like a woman.

No it wont. What exactly is feeling like a woman? I've asked so many tras and transwoman but literally none of them can answer it. Maybe you'll be the one to do it?

but if she was adamant to being just a girl, that is perfectly achievable and she would not be less of a girl because she had to get it artificially.

No it's not. Being a girl means having a female biological body. Cutting off her penis or using hormones blocker isn't gonna do it. It's literally impossible for her to a girl again unless she's struck with the same condition

 

[Sonaldo]

Been genuinely thinking you're more of a troll than a terf for a bit now, but in any case, here's his record: https://yalebulldogs.com/sports/womens-swimming-and-diving/roster/iszac-henig/17380

Seriously? College level competition?

There's also Mack Beggs, who went 57-0 one year and 32-0 another year because Texas law forced him into the women's wrestling league. Before you ask, he was on hormone blockers, so any advantage he must have had was purely from whatever differences there are between cis women and trans men.

I'm genuinely asking, do you really think the world means USA only? Because college level competition in your country means jackshit lol

https://web.archive.org/web/2020080...wnloadpdf/journals/jpah/17/6/article-p650.pdf I know, a sample size of 212 isn't much, but it'll have to do.

So you're literally admitting that this study is bollocks?

It's almost as though it's such a small subset of the population that it's difficult to get proper sample sizes for.

Exactly. So why are you using it as an absolute proof?

Still, I'll take my sample size of 75 in physical conditioning tests covering several different areas

Lmfao. Then you're an idiot because that number is far too small to prove anything and is subject to scrutinization .

over your sample size of 1 in boxing and 5 in soccer

You want more example of transwoman in woman sports?

In any case, I think I've made my point well enough. Not to you, but that was never the goal. It's always been about convincing the audience.

Oh yes. You definitely proved your a misogynist bastard that defined woman with how sexually attractive they are to you. Now you've proven you're also an idiot that doesn't know how statistics work

Have a good one, and my recommendation for convincing people you're a terf and not a troll in the future would be to swap your avatar for something from Revolutionary Girl Utena or Omae Gotoki. Picking something that seems to be in direct opposition to second wave feminism doesn't really help your case.

Bro we're in a manga reading website . You genuinely think that avatar picture has some kind of deep meaning or something? I literally picked that profile picture by random and too lazy to change it. Omfg this is so hilarious ngl.

 

[Sonaldo]

Didn't the use of those drugs affect the growth of their genitals and may outright sterilize them if overused? Isn't there one of those trans kids having trouble with the bottom surgery because his penis is too small to perform vaginoplasty? Hell, even the UK chose to ban those drugs because not enough evidence they are safe or effective.

https://segm.org/Sweden_ends_use_of_Dutch_protocol

Sweden also banned them as well. Puberty blocker is harmful and don't let these people convince you it's not.

 

[Madbunny]

Man, if I ever get around to translate the next chapter, it's going to be even more of a shitshow comment section.

Go for it and translate it, don't give a fuck about the seething. I'm laughing my ass off here hahahaha.