Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Vol. 2 Ch. 10

[mcdumbface]

i hope author-sensei can cook up something cause i don't see an out for poor rinko here

 

[Rhodynit]

Playing Devil's Advocate Here... She's not that wrong, well it's a big decision, a lot of the things she had before won't be the same, so yes, no matter how much shit her mother was in that part, she's not wrong , the desire to want it has to come from Rinko herself, and I'm sure that the person she likes would accept it the way it is, since they went through the same thing before too

 

[Barro27]

Maybe it's a translation or language thing, but trying to paint womanhood as being unachievable when you were born as a male is pretty transphobic. Of course, your body won't be the "same" as that of a cis woman but that was no way to put it. Cutting off her penis, getting surgeries and hormone replacement would leave her feeling like a woman. That argument was not well put at all even from a "we're talking only facts here" point of view. If you want to discuss the challenges a trans woman faces, that is another conversation that they weren't having because the mom just shot that down with "that wouldn't be the same".

Ultimately, I think it was extremely needed to have the character thinking about their new body as something else than just something to get rid of (as I said.. I want her to keep being a guy with a female/male mind). It is worth saying that she is being hasty with the decision. But she started that conversation in a pretty transphobic way. Again: I'm the one that wants the character to blur the lines between masculine and feminine, but if she was adamant to being just a girl, that is perfectly achievable and she would not be less of a girl because she had to get it artificially.

No, it wouldn't necessarily make her feel like a woman. Women often feel like their womanhood is degraded "merely" by getting a breast chopped off due to cancer. It's not transphobic, it's just not "transphilic" because it exposes a valid and common way to experience loss of function that doesn't support your point of view.

Similarly, ask 100 men who lost their genitals in an accident if a phalloplasty makes them feel like they regained their manhood and you might be telling us almost all of them are transphobic.

Nothing transphobic in describing the experience of never being able to regain fully the functions your body had and the feeling of loss that comes with it. On the contrary there is something evil in trying to silence these voices that are expressing legitimate concerns.

 

[MagicalSatori]

I lost braincells reading some of these transphobic threats.

I can sleep safe at night knowing that the toilet forcefield will always protect all the people inside if you have a male id.

 

[LewynMartell]

No, it wouldn't necessarily make her feel like a woman. Women often feel like their womanhood is degraded "merely" by getting a breast chopped off due to cancer. It's not transphobic, it's just not "transphilic" because it exposes a valid and common way to experience loss of function that doesn't support your point of view.

Similarly, ask 100 men who lost their genitals in an accident if a phalloplasty makes them feel like they regained their manhood and you might be telling us almost all of them are transphobic.

Nothing transphobic in describing the experience of never being able to regain fully the functions your body had and the feeling of loss that comes with it. On the contrary there is something evil in trying to silence these voices that are expressing legitimate concerns.

hello 🙋 don't you think you might be coming from a non-helpful perspective for the situation at hand in the long term? genuinely think about it: what you are describing is women who were born with female body parts and men who were born with male body parts who lost the parts that they understood to be instrinsically tied to their gender and not being fullfilled with the artificial reconstruction. are the women, in reality, lesser women and the men lesser men because of it? do you think it's possible for them to reconcile that trauma in their heads with the fact that at the end of the day they don't want to turn into a man/turn into a woman? to live as anything else than the person they feel they are?

you say that it wouldn't necessarily make her feel like a woman but the other side of the coin is that there is a big, BIG chance that it would. and we can attest that from the millions of trans women who go through this process and are happier and more satisfied than if they stayed in the body of a man. the thing is: the thing that made her lose the "og parts" already happened. it's already gone and as far as we know there is no coming back. the whole transgender-like process is steps towards a solution that verifiably works

and i hope you didn't misunderstand me! i'm not trying to be evil by "silencing the voices who express this concern" hahaha least of all in a harmless piece of fiction. as i said in my answer, there is legitimate talk to be had about the situations and challenges trans women face. but i think the mom character built it onto a false foundation. i don't think this would ultimately do any good for her child, especially, as you said, the trauma from these bodily experiences matter. i agree with that! and i also urge you to consider the possibility that the women who got their boobs reconstructed and the men who got phalloplasty were left feeling BETTER than they would have been if they hadn't done these surgeries.

i hope i was able to convey my thoughts. cheers 😁

 

[Sonaldo]

you say that it wouldn't necessarily make her feel like a woman but the other side of the coin is that there is a big, BIG chance that it would.

And there's a chance that it wouldn't. What happens then? We can't regrow the penis. We can't reverse the side effects of the puberty blockers.

and we can attest that from the millions of trans women who go through this process and are happier and more satisfied than if they stayed in the body of a man.

Detransitioners exists too. They're a proof that those irreversible treatments isn't guaranteed to work. Not to mention that a large number of transpeople still commit suicide.

the thing is: the thing that made her lose the "og parts" already happened. it's already gone and as far as we know there is no coming back. the whole transgender-like process is steps towards a solution that verifiably works

And there's still a chance it won't. Like do transitioning have a 100% success rate?

 

[disky01]

this is really interesting. the mother is like ,"you can never be a real woman" and like she was a real woman a week ago all thats changed is her endocrine system and bones, get her on estrogen she will go back to normal. the author is smoking something because this is such a great way to mix current trans issues with a genderbend story.

 

[Sonaldo]

this is really interesting. the mother is like ,"you can never be a real woman" and like she was a real woman a week ago all thats changed is her endocrine system and bones, get her on estrogen she will go back to normal. the author is smoking something because this is such a great way to mix current trans issues with a genderbend story.

What is normal? Will estrogen change her dick into a pussy?

 

[Nari]

Explain this. How is women using the changing room being protected from a clear male being there? And I can give you more example if you want. One of those include transwoman (which are biologically male) literally masturbating in a woman toilet. C'mon. Defend that please

Also, you calling me terfs does nothing lol. Do you think people really care about that slur?

Edit: fuck it I'm sharing that video anyway since none of you want to have a honest conversation anyway. Here. Guess what happened to a woman that shared these on Twitter to expose him. She's called a terfs. @Playerbase why don't you reply to this as well since you seems to think that male "self identity" which include masturbating in public spaces for woman won't affect anyone else. But let's be honest, both of you won't reply to this because you two doesn't want to confront the truth. Cmon, dumb react to all my other comments like the rest of you weirdos in this comment are doing.

you realize cis women do creepy shit in public too right? like surely your intelligent enough to realize gender has nothing to do with this right?


also for all the transphobes going "she will never become a woman again as being a girl is about biology" .... the fact yall are continuing to use she/her pronouns for her proves not even you take that argument seriously as you clearly still view her as a girl

 

[Barro27]

hello 🙋 don't you think you might be coming from a non-helpful perspective for the situation at hand in the long term?

On the contrary, thinking things through and weighting both benefits and risks based on existing data is what is helpful to the character here. It might not be to whoever is projecting too much in this impossible setting.

genuinely think about it: what you are describing is women who were born with female body parts and men who were born with male body parts who lost the parts that they understood to be instrinsically tied to their gender and not being fullfilled with the artificial reconstruction. are the women, in reality, lesser women and the men lesser men because of it? do you think it's possible for them to reconcile that trauma in their heads with the fact that at the end of the day they don't want to turn into a man/turn into a woman? to live as anything else than the person they feel they are?

Doesn't matter that much really. What matters is that it is replacing a set of issues with another and that the main character won't be able to revert to the previous one should they decide they like it less.

you say that it wouldn't necessarily make her feel like a woman but the other side of the coin is that there is a big, BIG chance that it would.

A minuscule one

and we can attest that from the millions of trans women who go through this process and are happier and more satisfied than if they stayed in the body of a man.

Even if i accept that there are indeed millions of people who were happier for having gone through this (i have no data so i would have to trust you on that). For these people there is only "gain" towards having a female looking body. They had none of it, they have more of it now.
In the case of the MC there is loss. From having it all to having none of it is a loss, but the operation would reduce this loss at best. At worst it would make it feel worse because the comparison between what she lost and what she has now would be even more direct.

the thing is: the thing that made her lose the "og parts" already happened. it's already gone and as far as we know there is no coming back. the whole transgender-like process is steps towards a solution that verifiably works

Once again, even if we assume it verifiably works, that's not how the human brain perceives loss. It's not a computer that's going to display a red downwards line and a green upwards one. Both states are going to be perceived as loss.

 

[Barro27]

you realize cis women do creepy shit in public too right? like surely your intelligent enough to realize gender has nothing to do with this right?


also for all the transphobes going "she will never become a woman again as being a girl is about biology" .... the fact yall are continuing to use she/her pronouns for her proves not even you take that argument seriously as you clearly still view her as a girl

Because she wasn't born a boy, lived most of her life a girl and for most intents and purposes is a girl who got an imaginary disease that made her a boy. I'm not switching to "him" either the day someone gets hirsutism or "her" the day someone gets gynecomastia.

Also, it feels like you expect people to use the pronoun of what they perceived the other to be rather than the one they are asked to. Should the people i called "she" at their request become "he" because my brain identifies them as men to appease you?

 

[Sonaldo]

you realize cis women do creepy shit in public too right?

And does any of that creepy shit equals to literally masturbating inside a toilet? Like I just don't get this argument. I'm actually showing you prove of transwoman with dick masturbating in a woman toilet. Are you actually defending this? Genuinely asking

like surely your intelligent enough to realize gender has nothing to do with this right?

You missed the point by a mile lol. So it's fine if I, a male masturbate in a public woman toilet? Like what actually is your point here? Do you not realize the problem with a male claiming to be a woman and using that to defile a woman private space? Can I say, hey you women do the same creepy thing so I'm not in the wrong here. Or maybe I can just say I identify as a woman and there's nothing wrong with that.

lso for all the transphobes going "she will never become a woman again as being a girl is about biology" .... the fact yall are continuing to use she/her pronouns for her proves not even you take that argument seriously as you clearly still view her as a girl

But she's not a girl. Do you want me to use he? Because the only reason I'm using she is to prevent my account from being blocked.

 

[LewynMartell]

On the contrary, thinking things through and weighting both benefits and risks based on existing data is what is helpful to the character here. It might not be to whoever is projecting too much in this impossible setting.


Doesn't matter that much really. What matters is that it is replacing a set of issues with another and that the main character won't be able to revert to the previous one should they decide they like it less.


A minuscule one


Even if i accept that there are indeed millions of people who were happier for having gone through this (i have no data so i would have to trust you on that). For these people there is only "gain" towards having a female looking body. They had none of it, they have more of it now.
In the case of the MC there is loss. From having it all to having none of it is a loss, but the operation would reduce this loss at best. At worst it would make it feel worse because the comparison between what she lost and what she has now would be even more direct.


Once again, even if we assume it verifiably works, that's not how the human brain perceives loss. It's not a computer that's going to display a red downwards line and a green upwards one. Both states are going to be perceived as loss.

i think we are definitely not coming into this from the same perspective and thus will not reach any middle ground whatsoever. i'm coming from the perspective that this loss you're referring to is already a reality that the character will have to deal no matter the path. and that it's not constructive to cruelly shoot down an entire valid option because of possible future regret or possible disappointment for not feeling the same. well, life happens. things outside your control happen and some things you can never get back. doesn't mean that taking the steps to reclaim back what you Can should be approached in such a pessimistic manner. this is my perspective.

from what i've read, you're coming from the perspective that since it all sucks the character should be constrained and limit herself to "it all sucks and will inevitably suck no matter what" and should be made to feel worse about it and lied to about the big (it's big, yes. not that you'd believe me i guess. maybe go on a transgender reddit and ask about people's experience if you want to check? idk, i'm sure you can work something out if you really want to know) possibility of feeling better after getting back what she lost (in a manner of speaking. oh and it's not switching one set of issues with the other by the way. it's all the same issue. crazy, huh.). most likely not feel 100% better (trans people also don't always feel 100% better. it's not only gain! there is already a loss imbued there) maybe it's just 80% better. but that counts for a LOT, you know.

but anyway, to each their own, i guess. agree to disagree. have a good one bro ✌️

 

[Barro27]

i think we are definitely not coming into this from the same perspective and thus will not reach any middle ground whatsoever. i'm coming from the perspective that this loss you're referring to is already a reality that the character will have to deal no matter the path.

If that was the case you wouldn't dismiss the option of accepting completely the loss and not having any medical or pharmaceutical procedure done.

and that it's not constructive to cruelly shoot down an entire valid option because of possible future regret or possible disappointment for not feeling the same. well, life happens. things outside your control happen and some things you can never get back. doesn't mean that taking the steps to reclaim back what you Can should be approached in such a pessimistic manner. this is my perspective.

What's cruel is depicting something that might not solve an issue as a likely solution. You set up your patient for extreme disappointment and suffering.

from what i've read, you're coming from the perspective that since it all sucks the character should be constrained and limit herself to "it all sucks and will inevitably suck no matter what" and should be made to feel worse about it and lied to about the big

I come from the perspective where you shouldn't depict one solution as better than it is just because you project yourself in a situation that's not yours. Because you will inevitably gloss over all the lifelong drawbacks of this kind of procedure for the sake of protecting your own opinion of it.

(it's big, yes. not that you'd believe me

I indeed believe independent data to make up my mind, not people who have interests one way or another in the data being one way or another.

i guess. maybe go on a transgender reddit and ask about people's experience if you want to check?

Reddit by definition is a place with an editorial line for each subreddit. You wouldn't suggest anyone to get their data from a detransition subreddit, hopefully. Because that would mean you would trick them by exposing them to a sampling bias.

idk, i'm sure you can work something out if you really want to know) possibility of feeling better after getting back what she lost (in a manner of speaking. oh and it's not switching one set of issues with the other by the way. it's all the same issue. crazy, huh.).

It is not, as i said. A biological man wanting to gain some feminity and a biological female wanting to get it back after experiencing it have two different sets of issues. Just like someone who was born completely blind would feel happier about seeing the world extremely blurred than someone who temporarily lost their sight after and accident and would recover 20% of it afterwards.

 

[SECTRE]

Mother is based. Surgery is permanent, don't go into it just for the sake of someone else's affirmation.

 

[Nami]

We can't reverse the side effects of the puberty blockers.

Spoken like someone who has literally no idea what they're talking about and learned everything they know on the topic from YouTube shorts.

 

[Sonaldo]

Spoken like someone who has literally no idea what they're talking about and learned everything they know on the topic from YouTube shorts.

Spoken like someone that has been brainwashed by the propaganda

 

[Nami]

Spoken like someone that has been brainwashed by the propaganda

Extreme projection.

 

[OmnipotentCheese]

Woof. That's some complicated transphobic stuff around surgery to unpack. I hope the author is doing okay. This is clearly coming from a place of deep personal enlightenment.

Like woof. Ouch.

It's too real. I'm having flashbacks. >.<

🏳️‍⚧️

 

[ryuumajin]

Mami... I mean MUMMY has a strong experience based on her... surrounding. She's a model, finding one or two people with that disease is not impossible and she might've learned something.

It can be seen that the sex-changing disease is like what it is, "disease" and perhaps the sex-change-surgery is seen as the "permanent solution", although I have this thought, who'd guarantee the disease won't happen twice?

The mother gives opinion in a right mind. She approves, but doing that one-way surgery in heat of the moment is too risky.
Then again, Rinko was basically a girl in mind, whose body reacted to the disease (Erection and all). The dysphoria of body and mind is real, after all. In her position, it's better to go back to girl because she's basically a girl. Having a surgery is more likely considered "going back home" with her body and mind wholeheartedly. It's not like she wants to be a boy when she's getting the disease.

So far, there's no cure for this fictional disease, so yeah...