Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Vol. 2 Ch. 13

[SuperOniichan]

This. So much this.

It's probably not going to happen but Rinko embracing being a boy after having sex with a girl would be hot ngl.

Why "possibly"? I don't know if she will end up being a boy or not, but the author is clearly trying to work with that while exploring the theme of Rinko's gender representation.

 

[Liar]

it's weird how it's so common for japanese protagonists to be like "I can't say this unless the conversation happens to flow into it perfectly" "oh no I lost my chance. now I can never say it"

like bruh if it's important just say it. so much drama stems from this weird inability to use words

I hope that's not what's about to happen here, but it sure looks like it's going there.

Having had Japanese friends who lived and experienced living in Japan for a number of years, it's a common problem that a lot aren't assertive enough to express a topic. Not everyone, of course, but just enough that it can be a noticeable problem and trait.

 

[Kirin-kun]

It's unclear if the one Mao was going out with in the past is Yuuki (whether male or female), because she wouldn't push Rinko in his arms when her own relationship was based on sex only. But then, she seems to be pining for Yuuki while also giving up on him. I don't get lesbian vibes from Mao. She doesn't seem to look at Rinko in a romantic way, but as a senpai eager to fulfil her role. The author keeps things really vague.

 

[Peachblink]

Well, I agree. I was mainly playing advocate for Kirin-kun, but I don't think anyone was claiming that this is proof of Mino's sexuality. I interpreted Kirin-kun to be making the claim that the way Mino worded it here adds on to the growing pile of (circumstantial) evidence that suggests that maybe she's not as straight as she thought she was, which was what I've been trying to argue here as well. We can't say anything definitively at the moment, but personally I think there's more evidence in favour of Mino having always liked women, in comparison to the amount of evidence for the contrary.

In reality, increased testosterone is not going to erase a sexual attraction to men (instead research shows that it would only increase it if anything), so if that's the explanation for Mino not feeling sexual attraction to Yuuki, then that would be a bit of a head scratcher for me, although it wouldn't be the first time I've seen that explanation used in genderbend manga. But with the themes that the manga has hinted towards being interested in exploring so far (e.g. Yuuki's "I was always disgusting" line) it seems like the manga would be much more thematically cohesive if it turned out that Rinko always liked women but never understood her sexuality until it threatened to burst out of her pants, so to speak.

Assuming we are treating Mino's gender change as something with parallels to HRT in terms of body and mind changes, expansion of sexuality is something that can and has been shown to happen to a number of people under HRT, although not necessarily a case where one person went from purely straight to purely gay (at least, not in the sense of, say, liking only girls as a man to liking only girls as a girl), rather, a person going from a purely straight/gay standpoint to a more fluid one, even if they retain a preference.

In my opinion, Mino was never 100% straight necessarily, but is not a 100% lesbian either necessarily (at least with the current information given, it is perfectly possible for it to go that way as well), they are just experiencing an expansion of their sexuality as new barriers are broken and pushed in directions that they weren't aware of. The most often given explanation to sexuality exploration post-HRT is due to said barriers being broken, and seeing things from different points of view because sexuality is not a binary on/off switch, but something that fluctuates heavily.

 

[TheLostLight]

Assuming we are treating Mino's gender change as something with parallels to HRT in terms of body and mind changes, expansion of sexuality is something that can and has been shown to happen to a number of people under HRT, although not necessarily a case where one person went from purely straight to purely gay (at least, not in the sense of, say, liking only girls as a man to liking only girls as a girl), rather, a person going from a purely straight/gay standpoint to a more fluid one, even if they retain a preference.

In my opinion, Mino was never 100% straight necessarily, but is not a 100% lesbian either necessarily (at least with the current information given, it is perfectly possible for it to go that way as well), they are just experiencing an expansion of their sexuality as new barriers are broken and pushed in directions that they weren't aware of. The most often given explanation to sexuality exploration post-HRT is due to said barriers being broken, and seeing things from different points of view because sexuality is not a binary on/off switch, but something that fluctuates heavily.

The keyword here is "expand" (it might be even more accurate to say 'expose' or 'reveal', but that's debatable), but as you point out if it changes at all, it should become more fluid, not less. Hormones is not enough to explain why she would constantly be getting hard-ons for all of the girls around her but feel nothing for her male crush if she really had felt sexual attraction towards men before. At least not if we're trying to be at all realistic, which this manga seems to be trying to do. You cannot "turn off" a sexual attraction towards a specific gender that you already possess. This is a well established fact that people have been trying their damnedest to disprove for decades without any success.

Anyways, as most of us seem to agree, we can't say anything definitively about Mino's sexuality at this time (other than she's currently attracted to women at the minimum). The main point I'm making here is that testosterone is not a "me like women" hormone, and estrogen is not a "me like men" hormone, and it has dangerous real world implications to mistakenly believe so, which many people do.

 

[REDRED]

JUST TELL HER!!!

thanks for the chapter.⭐

 

[SuperOniichan]

Assuming we are treating Mino's gender change as something with parallels to HRT in terms of body and mind changes, expansion of sexuality is something that can and has been shown to happen to a number of people under HRT, although not necessarily a case where one person went from purely straight to purely gay (at least, not in the sense of, say, liking only girls as a man to liking only girls as a girl), rather, a person going from a purely straight/gay standpoint to a more fluid one, even if they retain a preference.

In my opinion, Mino was never 100% straight necessarily, but is not a 100% lesbian either necessarily (at least with the current information given, it is perfectly possible for it to go that way as well), they are just experiencing an expansion of their sexuality as new barriers are broken and pushed in directions that they weren't aware of. The most often given explanation to sexuality exploration post-HRT is due to said barriers being broken, and seeing things from different points of view because sexuality is not a binary on/off switch, but something that fluctuates heavily.

You're missing one simple thing - Japanese culture tends to associate gender very strongly with sexuality, and therefore same-sex attraction is often perceived as androgynous behavior and tendencies. Ever notice Animanga’s fixation on the “masculine” behavior of queer women and the femininity of queer men? Yes, just like the old Western homophobic stereotypes. It's so ingrained that many queer male characters in anime and manga rationalize female gender representation as attraction to other men. There was even a dialogue about this in the Blue Period. Even the development of Class S and the subsequent idealization of "spiritual maidens" or the rise of bara manga with other hachimuchi couldn't kill it.

This manga does not repeat this prejudice in general, but it explores how the conventional "ordinary woman" perceived gender bender transformation into the conventional "ordinary man", especially without all these traditional yuri gender bender conventions about "saving a man's soul" and other self-insertion. Just imagine if yesterday you were a straight man who was literally disgusted by the sight of someone else’s penis, but today you woke up as a straight woman who is attracted to men above all. I understand that this may be difficult for Western readers immersed in Western gender studies and critical gender theory to understand (not to mention the seemingly clear desire to read her as a queer woman at all costs), but that's the way it is.

To be honest, I personally find this approach even more interesting, since it explores gender bender from a rather radically straightforward position, which is noticeably refreshingly different from the actual “I was reborn in another world as yuri queen bishoujo” trends.

 

[SuperOniichan]

It's unclear if the one Mao was going out with in the past is Yuuki (whether male or female), because she wouldn't push Rinko in his arms when her own relationship was based on sex only. But then, she seems to be pining for Yuuki while also giving up on him. I don't get lesbian vibes from Mao. She doesn't seem to look at Rinko in a romantic way, but as a senpai eager to fulfil her role. The author keeps things really vague.

Vague? Nothing is stated directly? Hah, just write everyone down as gay if you like and don't worry about it. Isn't that how all these "interpretations" and "analyses" with a predetermined conclusion work? At the very least, pretend this is a documentary about trans transition.

The keyword here is "expand" (it might be even more accurate to say 'expose' or 'reveal', but that's debatable), but as you point out if it changes at all, it should become more fluid, not less. Hormones is not enough to explain why she would constantly be getting hard-ons for all of the girls around her but feel nothing for her male crush if she really had felt sexual attraction towards men before. At least not if we're trying to be at all realistic, which this manga seems to be trying to do. You cannot "turn off" a sexual attraction towards a specific gender that you already possess. This is a well established fact that people have been trying their damnedest to disprove for decades without any success.

Anyways, as most of us seem to agree, we can't say anything definitively about Mino's sexuality at this time (other than she's currently attracted to women at the minimum). The main point I'm making here is that testosterone is not a "me like women" hormone, and estrogen is not a "me like men" hormone, and it has dangerous real world implications to mistakenly believe so, which many people do.

This manga is not the real world and it never tried to represent it. This is literally an attempt to conventionally “realistically” study gender bender outside of the fanservice-fetishistic setting. Like those "science" titles about monster girls. By trying to apply the laws of the real world to this in order to draw any serious conclusions about its content or the intentions of the author, not to mention the fact that these laws themselves require a separate scientific discussion, you are simply deceiving yourself. I don’t know why I have to repeat this once again, but the aforementioned scene with the doctor has already stated directly that a gender bender in this universe may well switch sexuality and behavior when changing gender.

 

[Andigo]

I understand that this may be difficult for Western readers immersed in Western gender studies and critical gender theory to understand (not to mention the seemingly clear desire to read her as a queer woman at all costs), but that's the way it is.

I'm sure you don't have bad intentions and are getting irked by disagreement, but that's needlessly patronizing and is deflecting to academic meme sensitivity more than what others are discussing. Folks saying "That's the way it is" to simplify and dismiss disagreements don't have a strong track record.

You mention cultural trends which can be background without being core truths in a work. And Blue Period which is great. We Are Former Girls is blatantly queer realism so appeal to normalcy fails. Given how heavily this story leans on transgender and gender-irrelevant lived experiences, it's obvious and interesting, and applicable, that people bring up more real sexuality and hormonal science than tropes.

I'm much more surprised you're still projecting a normative heterosexual frame onto it, with the bias (neutral sense) of reading into male-female interaction as a lot deeper than what's definitively proven, and underestimating how people are unreliable interpreters. A queerer frame gives a wider range of play for people being inconsistent and unreliable interpreters of their feelings, and emotional turbulence and variation that doesn't cleanly fit an arc. I'm not assuming your background, you're just strongly gravitating to a framework that falls apart in queerer stories, and is insufficient even for many schlock genderbender stories.

While I won't say you're wrong on all points, I don't think you're using the best tools or respecting tools others are bringing that may be your blind spot this time. It's been a good discussion, you're more than welcome to keep going, but please try to understand where people are coming from. They're not summoning myths from scary academic terms.

 

[SuperOniichan]

I'm sure you don't have bad intentions and are getting irked by disagreement, but that's needlessly patronizing and is deflecting to academic meme sensitivity more than what others are discussing. Folks saying "That's the way it is" to simplify and dismiss disagreements don't have a strong track record.

You mention cultural trends which can be background without being core truths in a work. And Blue Period which is great. We Are Former Girls is blatantly queer realism so appeal to normalcy fails. Given how heavily this story leans on transgender and gender-irrelevant lived experiences, it's obvious and interesting, and applicable, that people bring up more real sexuality and hormonal science than tropes.

I'm much more surprised you're still projecting a normative heterosexual frame onto it, with the bias (neutral sense) of reading into male-female interaction as a lot deeper than what's definitively proven, and underestimating how people are unreliable interpreters. A queerer frame gives a wider range of play for people being inconsistent and unreliable interpreters of their feelings, and emotional turbulence and variation that doesn't cleanly fit an arc. I'm not assuming your background, you're just strongly gravitating to a framework that falls apart in queerer stories, and is insufficient even for many schlock genderbender stories.

While I won't say you're wrong on all points, I don't think you're using the best tools or respecting tools others are bringing that may be your blind spot this time. It's been a good discussion, you're more than welcome to keep going, but please try to understand where people are coming from. They're not summoning myths from scary academic terms.

I completely understand that queer people want to read things as queer, especially if they see them as having similar experiences. Like any person of any sexual or gender identity. It's part of human nature and there's nothing wrong with it. But at the same time, I am accustomed to primarily valuing neutrality and objectivity in a dispute. Even just their ideal, since for the same reason we can never be completely neutral and unbiased. That’s why I quickly get tired when I see people trying to apply the laws of the real world to an obviously full of conventions gender bender or strenuously trying to read the MC as gay by retroactively selecting “scientific facts” for a thesis already accepted as a fact. It is difficult to think of more serious errors in conducting an experiment or proving theories. However, we are all just trying to conduct a scientific debate, but not conducting one.

My or your identity has nothing to do with this, I would just as easily challenge someone to claim that Yuuki was just a "very affectionate girl". What's really sad is that while in pursuit of the sensational "she was a lesbian all along!11" (keeping in mind also that in many ways this fan theory is an attempt to mirror Yuuki's subplot onto her) people completely lose sight of the fact that saving her crush, the MC could actually be considered a bisexual man at this point. Even after I probably already paid attention to it 2-3 times. Maybe people here are simply not interested in the queer experience itself in one form or another, but in the desire to place a certain label on the MC?

P.S. But if you think that I have objectively insulted you or someone else somewhere, do not hesitate to tell me directly about it. I can always apologize if this was the case.

 

[Peachblink]

The keyword here is "expand" (it might be even more accurate to say 'expose' or 'reveal', but that's debatable), but as you point out if it changes at all, it should become more fluid, not less. Hormones is not enough to explain why she would constantly be getting hard-ons for all of the girls around her but feel nothing for her male crush if she really had felt sexual attraction towards men before. At least not if we're trying to be at all realistic, which this manga seems to be trying to do. You cannot "turn off" a sexual attraction towards a specific gender that you already possess. This is a well established fact that people have been trying their damnedest to disprove for decades without any success.

Anyways, as most of us seem to agree, we can't say anything definitively about Mino's sexuality at this time (other than she's currently attracted to women at the minimum). The main point I'm making here is that testosterone is not a "me like women" hormone, and estrogen is not a "me like men" hormone, and it has dangerous real world implications to mistakenly believe so, which many people do.

I think that something that really doesn't help is that we both have a lot of information from some angles, yet, at the same time, not enough information from other angles. There are some details from the story (Did Mino feel attraction that didn't develop into a crush towards other men beforehand? Was there any part during their life where that happened with a woman? Assuming either question is answered, is Mino truly honest?) that would explain everything all of sudden, yet their non-presence means that this is a mystery where half the pieces are missing.

That said, I am not trying to paint it as testosterone changing her sexuality necessarily, but reading about real life stories of people transitioning shows that it is a mess to say exactly if sexuality changing or not is "What normally happens". Fluctuation of sexuality post-transition IRL is just one of the most inconsistent parts of transitioning from one gender to another, because it has stories of people that didn't feel any real changes in their sexual desires, while also having stories of people that felt hard 180s on their sexual desires, while also also having stories of people that just expanded their sexual desires in general, and there's outright no clear standard to follow in that regard. That said, it never really becomes simply "turning off" an attraction, and it definitely is never caused by testosterone/estrogen by itself, there's always some other factor at hand (Comp het? A new perspective? Just seeing them as the opposite gender? Some trans people have even mentioned scents as well? There's even stories of gender envy being misplaced as romantic interest?), and that seems to be the part that would explain a lot, yet, again, is missing.

 

[zeruupi]

I smell gay 😀

 

[milleniumbug]

Why is no one talking about the mouthfeel?

 

[traplolihunter]

What I took out of this chapter is that:

• Mao dated someone, but it turned out badly because it was about sex only.
• Mao maybe knows that Yuuki is a former girl, seeing her reaction to Rinko's offhand comment.
• Rinko was attracted to Yuuki mainly because of his somewhat feminine behavior, so maybe s/he's always been attracted t

What I took out of this chapter is that:

• Mao dated someone, but it turned out badly because it was about sex only.
• Mao maybe knows that Yuuki is a former girl, seeing her reaction to Rinko's offhand comment.
• Rinko was attracted to Yuuki mainly because of his somewhat feminine behavior, so maybe s/he's always been attracted to girls.

Mao and the guy(girl) person had sex right

 

[traplolihunter]

My current theory is that Mao and Yuuki were dating before Yuuki's sex change. Yuuki went through the sudden sex change and Mao felt obligated to stay with him at the time. Yuuki became more aggressively sexual (in reference to Mao's 'it became all about sex' line) and Mao wasn't into it (explaining Yuuki's imagining or possibly even flashbacking to Mao calling him disgusting while they're doing it) because Mao likes girls. Now, Mao likes Mino and Mino prettty clearly likes Mao, but the same thing that Mao perceives as ruining her first relationship is now happening to her current crush. Spicy if true.

You sir have just answered me question

 

[zerio]

Re: second point, I went back and skimmed through a bit (since it's been so long), but my guess is Mao doesn't just know Yuuki was a girl. I'm pretty sure Mao and Yuuki had a history based on everything so far. My feeling is that this is probably also related to the first point.

I'll also say this: It feels like Mao is more interested in being with girls than being with guys...

It's been telegraphed that she likes Mino, so I think Mao senpai has more pain than a plan. Mao doesn't come across as trying to set up Yuuki with Mino. Even Mino's sexuality confusion cues were just recast as prefering sensitive boys, which only leaves Mao to support her. If Mao was to crack and lash out, she seems to recall Yuuki's birth sex and the simplest move is to bring it up in the transphobic kind of way. I doubt she's near that point but it would start a good conflict and forgiveness subplot.

Wow, I totally missed the possibility that Mao liked girls.

I was about to complain about her. She was worrying that Mino and Yuuki were hiding something, but she herself seemed to be hiding things and not open. But I guess if the reason is that she actually likes Mino, it can kinda explain her secretive behavior.
That said, it seems like she has a twin brother (based on previous chapter), and she's hiding that fact. So, there's probably more to her and her secret.