Lilim Holic - Vol. 1 Ch. 5 - Infirmary Crisis

[Gatelian]

Either you're the biggest moron in the world, An extreme sexist, or just a troll. There is a difference between someone being seduced and raping their paralyzed body. And once again I have to bring up the tone of the series. This series so far has been very serious and so if the act of sexual assault goes completely unpunished and is hand waved that goes against the entire internal logic of the series so far.

How about you learn some respect first, you ignorant piece of shit? Better think twice before going ad-hominem with me
Read the wikipedia link I gave you and shut the fuck up.

 

[essensue]

Feel free to educate yourself, I'm done with this pointless exchange
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succubus

The problem isn't that we don't know what a succubus is. The problem is that if THOSE fantasy succubi (rape monsters) existed in the world posited by this manga so far, humanity would have been right to make them extinct.

We're told that succubi operate on the same logic and emotions as humans, respect consent, are integrated fully into society, and held to the same (or stricter) legal standards as humans. A rapist is a rapist, succubus or human.

So if that's all true (no reason not to believe it) then it's pretty disappointing to have our second succubus character immediately try to rape the main character.

 

[GreenDude1]

How about you learn some respect first, you ignorant piece of shit? Better think twice before going ad-hominem with me
Read the wikipedia link I gave you and shut the fuck up.

Why the fuck would I ever respect you? Did you graduate top of your class in the Navy Seals?

 

[Gatelian]

The problem isn't that we don't know what a succubus is. The problem is that if THOSE fantasy succubi (rape monsters) existed in the world posited by this manga so far, humanity would have been right to make them extinct.

We're missing information on how it works but I would assume they compromised somehow and restrain themselves to live in human society and it would not be weird that a jealous teenager would disregard these rules. To be honest I would not be surprised if there's a faction trying to exterminate succubi in this setting, it's a valid interpretation.

 

[UdenEmpati]

Translation's a little awkward this time, but wow, the series' lore just adopted a whole bunch of stupid implications. We went from inclusion to ranking men and scientific sexism and some kind of poorly-defined sex juju?

It turns out her motive is... just spite? That drove her so crazy that she's going to commit a for-real serious-ass felony and rape this guy she isn't into?

And what the fuck is up with this depiction of rape? Unless there's even more succubus magic at play, somebody sucking your fingers when you ain't feeling it is somewhere between gross and hilarious. Having your ears nibbled by someone you're repelled by just tickles and makes you think "ew, I have spit on me." He's put his "this is fucked up and I'm scared" on hold to marvel at how sexy being assaulted is?

What a fucking embarrassing chapter of a manga.
Goddamn.

well - we know she's a succubus, and traditionally they have powers that would turn the actions you're citing into something much more sexually charged than they would be if this were just some "conventional" hot girl assaulting a boy that one of her contemporaries likes.

To you first paragraph, I'm of the opinion that what we're seeing is effectively the "progressive/conservative political dichotomy" but played out with yokai/supernatural beings. You have the platform pushing for forward-thinking ideals and ideologies where everyone lives in harmony and overcomes whatever "innate characteristics" would prevent a cohesive intermixing of peoples into society; and you have the counterpart--those saying "this is our nature and to deny it is to deny ourselves". Emu effectively belongs to the former, and Rinka represents the latter (at least going by the person she's talking to in the flashback, and her seeming disdain for Emu's way of going about things).

That's not to say that it's pleasant, but we also have that one classmate who's shamelessly going after Emu all the time--saying things like "she's a succubus; you can't help but dream". So as I remember you saying last chapter, there's a definite chance that we're being shown a much more gritty version of the reality at play in this setting, and not just some silly fluffy romcom between an otaku succubus and a boy who is overly-thoughtful about how he comes across in his crush on said succubus.

And if we're being honest--this is sort of what I would expect out of an entity that literally survives on sexual energy, placed in a modern setting where she's told "you can't just do that to people", coupled with the jealousy of adolescence and watching someone "appearing to be winning on easy mode".
I could write something about "they're not human, so expecting human norms and morals is folly", but I realize that's a slippery slope to go down that excuses just about anything and so I won't touch on that until the author drags us across that line.

I honestly am just impressed that the author went there, and didn't have either Emu walk in before Rinka did anything, or just have her pull back at the last second getting flustered.

 

[TotallyNotAFed]

Announcer after the fallout: First Blood!

 

[BobBob]

Okay, so blondie's just sticking it to Emu. I wonder what Emu's reaction will be.

 

[REMasher]

Nah, she's still convinced he doesn't like lewd stuff, so she'll probably try to help him.

 

[Ovaeron]

that’s just rape

 

[essensue]

well - we know she's a succubus, and traditionally they have powers that would turn the actions you're citing into something much more sexually charged than they would be if this were just some "conventional" hot girl assaulting a boy that one of her contemporaries likes.

To you first paragraph, I'm of the opinion that what we're seeing is effectively the "progressive/conservative political dichotomy" but played out with yokai/supernatural beings. You have the platform pushing for forward-thinking ideals and ideologies where everyone lives in harmony and overcomes whatever "innate characteristics" would prevent a cohesive intermixing of peoples into society; and you have the counterpart--those saying "this is our nature and to deny it is to deny ourselves". Emu effectively belongs to the former, and Rinka represents the latter (at least going by the person she's talking to in the flashback, and her seeming disdain for Emu's way of going about things).

That's not to say that it's pleasant, but we also have that one classmate who's shamelessly going after Emu all the time--saying things like "she's a succubus; you can't help but dream". So as I remember you saying last chapter, there's a definite chance that we're being shown a much more gritty version of the reality at play in this setting, and not just some silly fluffy romcom between an otaku succubus and a boy who is overly-thoughtful about how he comes across in his crush on said succubus.

And if we're being honest--this is sort of what I would expect out of an entity that literally survives on sexual energy, placed in a modern setting where she's told "you can't just do that to people", coupled with the jealousy of adolescence and watching someone "appearing to be winning on easy mode".
I could write something about "they're not human, so expecting human norms and morals is folly", but I realize that's a slippery slope to go down that excuses just about anything and so I won't touch on that until the author drags us across that line.

I honestly am just impressed that the author went there, and didn't have either Emu walk in before Rinka did anything, or just have her pull back at the last second getting flustered.

At a certain point I'm going to get "fuck this"-frustrated by the lousy job this series is doing in explaining its lore. Maybe the next chapter will fix it or something. But you can't just say "succubi are more attracted to men" and leave it there, because that's nothing. Wow, they're super-heterosexual? They have lower standards when it comes to men? They have stronger sexual urges? Lower sexual self-control?

I'm already pissed that we had a whole introduction in the first chapter that made it seem like succubi were just another human-like species that operated according to biology as we currently understand it. And then several chapters in you suddenly go "Hey check this shit out: MAGIC!!" at us? And we still don't know the extent of the magic powers they have? Or whether it's magic at all?

Why DON'T we know the political landscape? There have been plenty of places to mention it, like when they briefly mentioned restrictions on succubi in the sex trade. If there is a tradsucc faction, you probably want to introduce the concept before having one assault the MC.

What is sexual energy? What's a "good relationship" - an extended or romantic one? Are there adverse effects on the man? What makes a "good man" for a succubus? Does it coincidentally align with desirable traits in japanese culture of like, tall, well educated, rich, good family, nice face? If so, why?

All of these questions could have been answered easily in a single page in the first chapter. They're things the main character should know. And knowing the answers would strongly influence how we as the audience view what we're seeing unfold.

I'm not like, surprised that a succubus is assaulting a human boy. I'm also not demanding she face consequences, because haha holy shit c'mon, a manga dealing with rape in a considered, realistic, or "good" way? As a medium, it regards rape with about the same care and importance as it regards throwing car batteries into the ocean. And I'm pretty sure that up until recently, a woman couldn't even legally commit the crime of rape against a man in Japan. Like, "three years ago" recently.

No, I'm just pissed that I got excited for what seemed like a smart, well-thought-out, well-built and -integrated world that was going to talk about social issues by reconciling fantasy and reality, and then this is where we wind up.

In fact, I'm disappointed that there's nothing succubus-exclusive about this assault in its motivation or execution beyond some kind of horn-powered stun gun being subbed in for an electric one, blackmail, drugs, etc. It's boringly human and something we've seen in manga where it's played out exactly like this dozens of times - right down to having Emu burst into the room just before things get really serious.

I thought maybe the series aspired to greatness, despite the (admittedly a little funny) T gag. Instead it seems pretty content in the muck of cliche.

 

[FloorRoof]

The author is cooking something but it's hard to tell what just by looking at the ingredients. Right from the start the mood was all over the place, character motivations were vague, and there's just a bunch of odd mysteries. Then a scene like this comes up and it's hard to pinpoint what the author expected the reader to feel.
Also, wow, these chapters have been rapidly getting shorter.

 

[RollOmega]

Kyubey Did Nothing Wrong 2026: The Manga

 

[Rockdrop]

Succubus being lewd in my christian succubus manga? DROPPED!

 

[UdenEmpati]

At a certain point I'm going to get "fuck this"-frustrated by the lousy job this series is doing in explaining its lore. Maybe the next chapter will fix it or something. But you can't just say "succubi are more attracted to men" and leave it there, because that's nothing. Wow, they're super-heterosexual? They have lower standards when it comes to men? They have stronger sexual urges? Lower sexual self-control?

I'm already pissed that we had a whole introduction in the first chapter that made it seem like succubi were just another human-like species that operated according to biology as we currently understand it. And then several chapters in you suddenly go "Hey check this shit out: MAGIC!!" at us? And we still don't know the extent of the magic powers they have? Or whether it's magic at all?

Why DON'T we know the political landscape? There have been plenty of places to mention it, like when they briefly mentioned restrictions on succubi in the sex trade. If there is a tradsucc faction, you probably want to introduce the concept before having one assault the MC.

What is sexual energy? What's a "good relationship" - an extended or romantic one? Are there adverse effects on the man? What makes a "good man" for a succubus? Does it coincidentally align with desirable traits in japanese culture of like, tall, well educated, rich, good family, nice face? If so, why?

All of these questions could have been answered easily in a single page in the first chapter. They're things the main character should know. And knowing the answers would strongly influence how we as the audience view what we're seeing unfold.

I'm not like, surprised that a succubus is assaulting a human boy. I'm also not demanding she face consequences, because haha holy shit c'mon, a manga dealing with rape in a considered, realistic, or "good" way? As a medium, it regards rape with about the same care and importance as it regards throwing car batteries into the ocean. And I'm pretty sure that up until recently, a woman couldn't even legally commit the crime of rape against a man in Japan. Like, "three years ago" recently.

No, I'm just pissed that I got excited for what seemed like a smart, well-thought-out, well-built and -integrated world that was going to talk about social issues by reconciling fantasy and reality, and then this is where we wind up.

In fact, I'm disappointed that there's nothing succubus-exclusive about this assault in its motivation or execution beyond some kind of horn-powered stun gun being subbed in for an electric one, blackmail, drugs, etc. It's boringly human and something we've seen in manga where it's played out exactly like this dozens of times - right down to having Emu burst into the room just before things get really serious.

I thought maybe the series aspired to greatness, despite the (admittedly a little funny) T gag. Instead it seems pretty content in the muck of cliche.

part of me wants to say "we're all of five chapters in and maybe this is drip feeding the lore so that we don't just have walls of text/exposition overloading the reader right from the get-go", because extensive dumping of world-building is an art if you don't want to just overload a reader into being glassy-eyed and burned out before even getting to whatever the plot between the main cast is supposed to be".

But I do get your point and your frustrations. I think this series wants to be too many things all at once, and as of right now, it's not really committing enough in any one direction to effectively sell it. I could see it still going the direction you described as being desirable previously, but this particular chapter makes it feel like it has to be done through extreme drama and tension, when prior to this point it was just a very lighthearted romcom with supernatural window-dressing.

I think the next chapter will make or break the series, if I'm honest. I personally see a path through this that lets the author retain the stakes introduced, and allowing the characters themselves to relate more of the lore behind succubi and their historical place in human society, in a manner that doesn't halt the narrative with pages of walls of text. I think it'll depend on what Emu does in reaction to walking in on this scene, and what Rinka does if/when she's stopped (and depending on who stops her), and what Yui does upon finding out that there are succubi out there that clearly are content to flout the laws put in place to supposedly prevent this sort of thing.

If next chapter addresses this stuff in an internally coherent way that doesn't hand-wave the assault, doesn't pull its punches with the fallout for Rinka, doesn't just ignore what happened and switch tones back toward "goofy shy otaku floundering around a mutual crush", then I think I can give it another.

If it doesn't address anything and just rug-pulls the consequences of Rinka's actions here, then I will be joining you in the "fuck this" sentiment and just letting this one go.

I'm all for serious topics and issues and even things that are uncomfortable, even when shoved into what initially looked like a low-stakes goofy toned story. But I think you and I are aligned in wanting it to make coherent sense.

 

[Seyclops]

There's lore in this? Pharaoh, you'll gonna love this.

 

[ActuallyArma]

That's what you want to see, maybe the author agrees and you get what you want. Maybe you don't. We will find out next chapter for sure.

I feel as though you're the one seeing what you want to see. Yes, we're well aware of what a succubus is. They were even explained in Chapter 1 for those who didn't know. However, in Chapter 1 it's also noted that certain succubus actions have been "Established under regulations prohibiting non-consensual acts". Nothing she's done has been consensual.

She's shown stalking the two out of curiosity, she takes it upon herself to visit their school, gets him to take her to Emu, feigns illness in the hallway to get them secluded in the infirmary, she takes advantage of him trying to help her, telling him how unguarded and easy he is, she then paralyzes him, we get a whole 7 page internal monologue rant about how envious she is of Emu for what she has without trying while she's tried and failed numerous times, how unfair it is and how Emu doesn't get to have him. Tells him that he's at her mercy and can't resist anything she does, when he does attempts to resist after noticing it's just from the neck down she laughs at his "pointless resistance" being cute, wondering how long he can cling to reason, all the while she's nibbling his ears, feeling his chest, sucking on his fingers and starts undressing shortly after.


Meanwhile, not once does he make a move to her. He doesn't check her out, doesn't sling any pick up lines, he tells her to get off him when she pushes him down, does what he can to avoid her advances and turns his head away from a kiss.

In your defense, sure. She could stop before the line and play it off and "technically" be in the clear, but let's not pretend.

Also, your baby rage and lashing out at unrelated comments is peak comedy. Heatwave had me annoyed, your tantrum made my day.

https://imgur.com/21TLFNj

 

[Gatelian]

Might be wise to add a sexual violence tag to this manga so we can avoid these ridiculous displays of virtue signaling in future threads.

[...]

Law of equivalent exchange.
Good to see you trying to actually engage in discussion instead of just trying to "downvote" all my posts but I've already decided I do not care about whatever you have to say, therefore did not read and will not read.

 

[timcal2136]

Might be wise to add a sexual violence tag to this manga so we can avoid these ridiculous displays of virtue signaling in future threads.


Law of equivalent exchange.
Good to see you trying to actually engage in discussion instead of just trying to "downvote" all my posts but I've already decided I do not care about whatever you have to say, therefore did not read and will not read.

I disliked your comments on this thread, and you went to basically every comment ive made on any manga and disliked it? You are an abject loser lol

 

[Gatelian]

I disliked your comments on this thread, and you went to basically every comment ive made on any manga and disliked it? You are an abject loser lol

You disliked my comments instead of talking to me so I recripocated, I'm not new to the internet so I know your type quite well. Since I said something you did not like you try to play down my opinion instead of typing a message to make it easier for others to do the same. Another user directly insulted me in this very thread but at least took time to write, you were unable to even do that much.

 

[odannyc85]

seamen demon doing seamen demon things, I'm not shocked nor would I ever be in that situation.