Choose one: shoujou/shounen-ai or yuri/yaoi. Change my mind.

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

(Reason to create this thread)

Spoiler

This is my attempt to making "change my mind" threads a trend. It's also a response to @Drifter telling me that I was playing on "easy mode" the last time. I also decided to take the bolder approach of criticizing the tagging of MangaDex's mangas directly by putting it under the Suggestions section instead of Literature. I was also inspired from this thread right here. I'm going to be using the same format and rules as I did last time.

Mods, don't take this seriously cause I'm just fishing for debates. But please don't outright reject this thread cause no one would click it then. Maybe the results of the discussion would be something worth thinking about, you never know.

There has often been multiple arguments about the use of shoujou/shounen-ai with yuri/yaoi; some even classify them under the umbrella term GL/BL. MangaDex uses the prior, avoiding umbrella terms where necessary. Thus arises a recent debate if wether this decision is wise, however I am here to argue otherwise.

We shouldn't mix shoujou/shounen-ai with yuri/yaoi. The prior and the latter are two different genres; albeit similar in themes but still different in contents. (These terms will be refered to as "SH" and "Y" as their acronyms for ease of writing.) As most seem to agree in the argument, SH features romance that are rather shy in their sexual innuendoes. Y, however, go full throttle. Note that I consider the various sexual innuendoes as a spectrum and not as yes or no; further explained later.

For most of the GL/BL mangas I've come across, it seems that their scanlators picked either SH or Y, however, I have been seeing plenty tagging both genres. I argue that, not only that these two genres are different, they also cannot be mixed. As I stated in the previous paragraph.

@Drifter How about this for a challenge? I've made plenty of points that are very arguable. I'm not playing on "easy mode" anymore, don't you think?

(My argument on why SH and Y are different genres in more detail)

Spoiler

As you can already infer from said paragraph, I think that the difference between SH and Y all boils down to the amount of sexual innuendoes. We will need to be able to have a definitive guide in order to tell what is what. So, what does count as a sexual innuendo and where is the line between SH and Y in that case?


What is a sexual innuendo?
I will rely upon Google to define these subject in order to abide with rule 3.

Sexual
"Relating to the instincts, physiological processes, and activities connected with physical attraction or intimate physical contact between individuals."

innuendo
"An allusive or oblique remark or hint, typically a suggestive or disparaging one."

Combining these two terms will give us the following:
"A suggestive remark where two people initiate intimate contact."

Remember these three definitions as they will prove useful.


Where is the line drawn?

Previously, I mentioned that this matter is a spectrum and not binary. Here is what I meant:

-SH: slight teasing, cheerful mood overall, basically almost zero sexual innuendoes.
-Ecchi SH: obviously tons of sexual innuendoes but they never reach smut.
-Y: Smut level over 9000

This is what I meant. There is an obvious spectrum ranging from SH, ecchi SH, and eventually Y.


Wait a minute, smut is just sex and no sexual innuendoes!!

I'd argue against that. Smut uses sexual innuendoes for its foreshadowing before they show actual sex. The usage and severity of sexual innuendo all contribute towards its placement in the spectrum.

(Why SH and Y cannot be mixed as genres)

Spoiler

If you have read the above hidden text which explains how I differentiate SH and Y, you should get it now. They are in a spectrum of sexual innuendoes, and those furthest towards the right are Y.

==========================
=SH - - - - - - - Ecchi SH - - - - - - - Y=
==========================
=No - - - - - - - - - light - - - - - - - - - f=
==========================
^{f means foreshadowing, I ran out of space}

This took ten minutes... appreciate my masterpiece...

(How I plan to make this a thing)

Spoiler

I wouldn't go as far as to tell the admins to straight up ban any users who commits this act, right? hahaha...

TL;DR
I plan to force it into the habits of the community. It is possible. Everyone just has to accept it as a taboo. A couple anecdotes down below to serve as living evidence of my plan to be plausible.

I am "active" in another online community where forum threads do not have pages and would eventually grow super long. Not only that, they also can't be locked. As a, almost instinctive, response, the community developed a negative response towards "gravedigging", an act where someone comments on a thread in which 30 days has passed since the last reply. In this state, the thread is deemed "dead" and when new users who are unaware of this taboo decides to gravedig, they are warned by the active members. This tradition has been going on ever since I joined this community, about three years. In fact, the community has such a negative impulse towards gravedigging that the admins have decided that purposefully gravedigging threads on multiple occasions is a bannable offense.

(Yeah, I'm pretty much advertising at this point. If you want to, help this site out. It's called Story Wars and it isn't in its most healthy state right now and I'm ironically spending more time on MangaDex with the same energy I had back when I first visited Story Wars, to which I am losing right now.

(This is a writing community that has a lot of passion for... well, writing. The premise of this site is that you would write the first chapter of your story and other people can submit drafts for the following chapter. After a voting round, the winning draft will officially become the next chapter and the cycle will repeat until you obtain a story made by multiple authors.

(The community itself is very cheerful and open-minded. Everyone knows each other well and disrespectful trolls are very hard to spot (at least the way I used to remember it).

(Currently, the only person who is developing SW is inactive due to personal reasons. Its active members count are also dropping. More forum threads are being made than actual successful stories. It'd be nice if you guys could join and help out. Plus, I'm the only weeb there. Help me infect that community with waifus and body pillows.

(Sorry for the plugin. Back to your regularly scheduled debate.)

The above shows that it is possible to have such an abnormal tradition to be done in an online community. There's also this thing called "monkey see, monkey do."

Back in my high school days (which is six months ago ) we shared a canteen with the elementary students. Every so often, someone would cause a chair to fall down. Due to the heavy material, it would make a loud sound when it fell.

I used to watch some science TV shows (back in my inferior, pre-youtube days) and they tested the "monkey see, monkey do" thing. Their hypothesis was that if at least five people were to do it, almost everyone would do the same. In their show, it worked. In my observation of at least five, immature kids to start clapping, the whole canteen clapped as well.


My hypothesis is that if at least one out of five people would point out on a manga that uses both SH and Y in their tags that it's wrong and use my argument for their defense, the whole site eventually will carry on this tradition.

I don't provide a poll because I'm challenging all of you to prove me wrong. Until I admit defeat, I will assume victory. Fight me using words and logic, I dare you.

(Some tags to summon peeps to catalyze the argument while simultaneously being annoying

Spoiler

@firefish5000 @Sleeper @421cookies @Pika @ununseti @cervidae @MooPoint @JKTV @Pokari @Keinritt @kiraidesu @Subscribe to Pewdiepie @ma_ko @kronix @monkey123 @ABCsOfLife @boag @Hoanghoiham @siddrasam @Tiipo @Fox @scripted @What are you doing? Subscribe to Pewdiepie already!! @Nightwolf @BlackGeneral @plsnobully @RedInACup @WolvenWorks @josephgomes619
@BadWithNames @Amduscas @CoolOtamegane @Alraisen @Garmr_Eluternal
@everyone

Edit: someone actually made "everyone" as their username lol

(Rules)

Spoiler

I updated it from the last time.

1. Every reply that is directed to oppose my original idea must be replied with the intent of opposing that reply.
2. Any reply that is just meant as a comment or what I dismiss as opinion does not have to be responded.
3. Try to keep the values of facts true by avoiding cherrypicking examples as well as not polluting said facts with opinions. Use an outside, credible source if you have to.
4.1. If someone has successfully changed part of my opinion, I must strikethrough the changed opinion in this first post and state the change right after the strikethrough.
4.2. If at least 50% of the participants, excluding myself, plus one person consider said opinion change to be major enough that it qualifies as "I have changed my mind", then I will surrender and "admit defeat". Basically, democracy to decide wether I have been fully or only partially defeated.
5. Any edits must be noted in the edit log, even minor ones.

(Opinion changes log)

Spoiler

-Still zero. Try harder.

(Edit log)

Spoiler

Edit 1: Fixed wording, grammar, spelling, formatting errors + tagged the whole world

I'm going to bed, c ya

 

[boag]

it is my understanding that the terms shounen-ai and shoujo-ai came about from western influences and have no roots in japanese culture, feel free to correct me on this, but stablishing where the terms arised from would go a long way to changing my own mind about it.

 

[FireFish5000]

(Some tags to summon peeps to catalyze the argument

Is this part of your master plan to take over the forums and, eventually, the world!? #BathLoliNation

while simultaneously being annoying

So it WAS intentional!

it is my understanding that the terms shounen-ai and shoujo-ai came about from western influences and have no roots in japanese culture, feel free to correct me on this, but stablishing where the terms arised from would go a long way to changing my own mind about it.

So yuri is part of Japanese culture.... this is strangely pleasing to know. Are all those women bath scenes taken from daily life?

Well, I don't have much of an opinion on this matter myself. But I will say that even if they are mutually exclusive scene wise, the story can probably contain both elements. Most likely, a good yuri would morph out of a shojou-ai series. Although, I cannot think of many authors that are willing to depict such progress in a series(not my main genre anymore though). Even if you argue that once it morphs, it is no longer shojou-ai, we will still have the tag since it was already there. Not to mention failing to describe the first half of the series would not yield much benefit for us.

That said, the tags may be misused. Not much that can be done about that other than giving good examples/descriptions in title(mouseover) text. Even then, it is up to us to read and understand it.

 

[Pika]

I have never really minded categorizing wrongly if it's about shounen-ai/shoujo-ai and yaoi/yuri.
But with my extensive *cough* research, I have seen shounen-ai and shoujo-ai tags (or BL/GL) when the manga/doujin has even a slight hint of romance between the same gender
I sometimes see people using the tag BL even if we just see 2 guys holding hands in pixiv

But for yaoi and yuri, they are most likely having sex and the genitalia are censored (if you call that black bar, that hides nearly nothing, censoring)

 

[FireFish5000]

@Pika Well, it censors it enough for them to use it on real porn, put the image on the front cover, and then put the magizens(with said covers) at the exit of a convenience store chain (in-?)appropriately named "Family Mart" (or was it Lawson... I think all stores were like that tbh). That said, I have only read 1-2 non-hentai yuri where sex was implied.

 

[plsnobully]

The tag shounen/shoujo-ai applies in both cases, whether they go all the way or just hinting of same gender romance, yuri/yaoi should apply only where they go full on smut. I wouldn't mind if they were used exclusive to each other, it would make whatever you're looking for easier to find

 

[Tiipo]

Hey why the hell was I tagged. I’ll just get straight to the point I dont really care much for the genres themselves as long as they don’t bother me with my reading and as long as they’re not represented in an “In your face” manner sort of thing. Everyone has a genre they prefer and I really won’t say anything as long as it’s not bothering me or anything. (Damn I suck at these)
Ps. I don’t wanna get into an argument since I suck at them so please be open minded to what I just typed down

 

[Pokari]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

I'm not sure this belongs in the suggestions forum as it stands, but I'm game for a just-'cause debate every once in a while.

---

First off, to preface everything else I'm going to say, I have a very important point I want to make.

In practice, on Mangadex and it's tagging predecessors, shounen-ai and yaoi have a crystal-clear dividing line. Is there on-screen-sex? If you answered "yes", it's yaoi, if you answered "no", it's shounen-ai. Done. (The borderline cases that people disagree on, that I know of, I can count on one hand.) This means some reasonably raunchy stuff gets classified as shounen-ai, FYI (no bedroom scenes, no yaoi). Having said that, some stuff is tagged both. In these cases, it's understood to be yaoi.

In constast, on the same sites, shoujo-ai and yuri have a very blurry wishy-washy dividing line. The only thing you can say for sure is that anything that would be yaoi (if it were men) will have a yuri tag: Explicit sex is one end of where people draw the line—but it's the far end. I've seen it claimed that, "it's yuri if they kiss more than once," "it's yuri if the story goes on past a confession," even "it's yuri if there's any romance, and therefore shoujo-ai is for pure subtext". (I've almost never heard anyone argue that BL subtext counts as shounen-ai, FYI; in boy-boy-land, subtext is subtext).

---

Now, some issues I have with your definitions:

I think that the difference between SH and Y all boils down to the amount of sexual innuendoes.

Where there is already a clear distinction (shounen-ai, yaoi), this is wrong; the difference is whether it's sexually explicit; "innuendo", as you've said, is merely suggestive material.

Wait a minute, smut is just sex and no sexual innuendoes!!

I'd argue against that. Smut uses sexual innuendoes for its foreshadowing before they show actual sex. The usage and severity of sexual innuendo all contribute towards its placement in the spectrum.

"Smut" to me (and most tagging I've seen supports this) means (implicitly lowbrow) work where sexual content is approached in an unusually casual, leery, and/or contrived manner—the usual implication being that the story is in service to the sex, rather than the other way 'round, and it shows. It's not so much a "quantity of sexual content" so much as a "quality of sexual content" indicator. Innuendo is besides the point, a somewhat orthogonal concept.

---

With all that out of the way, towards your argument itself:

I argue that, not only that these two genres are different, they also cannot be mixed.

There are two clauses to your argument—that the genres are different, and that they cannot be mixed. Notably, the second clause is intrinsically dependent on the first clause (one cannot argue separation of the genres if they are distinct).

With regards to the first clause—the idea that these sub-genres are distinct—I would like to emphasise [/i]we've been arguing about the details of for over half a decade at least[/i]. In particular, there is no consensus on where the shoujo-ai/yuri split should be despite much debate on the matter. There are entrenched factions that say various things (that they are distinct along the same lines as shounen-ai/yaoi, that there is a foggy difference between the two, or that shoujo-ai either overlaps yuri or doesn't exist at all, et-cetera).

And none of these opinions are particularly more valid than the other; this is not the realm of hard facts, so there cannot be a logically "best" way to describe the distinction. Either someone is going to have to make an arbitrary decision from on high to resolve it, or opinions will remain fragmented and we shall continue having no way to resolve the matter. Your idea of coming up with yet-another way we might define the difference doesn't help, at least pragmatically speaking, as the much more herculean task would be to get others to agree.

Another problem of this being opinion-based is I can't logically refute the validity of your proposed separation, because it's just as arbitrary as any other such proposal. The only semi-"factual" statements we can make about the tags are A) word-of-god (what the admins of this site, or failing that the sites that the tags came from, have said) which in this particular case turns out not to be especially helpful, and B) actual usage history of the tags, which as aforementioned is inconclusive (for GL, anyway). In a real pure-facts debate, there's just nothing to work with.

---

So in practice I feel that sort of renders your second clause kind of irrelevant, because we can't settle the first clause (through debate, anyway).

Nonetheless, as a purely cerebral exercise, possible issues with the idea of enforcing your SH/Y exclusion clause, assuming we could agree on the border (I'm going to use the clear existing shounen-ai/yaoi border for this thought exercise, instead of your proposed one), are:

A) It's not really worth the effort:

[ul]- As with shounen-ai/yaoi, the presence of the latter tag supersedes the former tag in significance; works tagged both are unambiguously yaoi. As such, there isn't much of a problem; you know what you're getting into.
- Food for thought: Somewhat like when there's both a "drama" and a "tragedy" tag on a work.[/ul]
B) Many works would logically merit both; one could also use both in certain borderline cases:

[ul]- Anthologies
- Works where one pair of characters is engaged in one type of relationship and another in the other, and both couples are front and center—especially if there's prominent contrast between the two
- Doubly so if the "more-innocent" couple is the centerpiece of the story instead, and the side-characters are the ones tasked with releasing the sexual tension of the work (I hate this trope but it's certainly a thing I've seen before)[/ul]

 

[Keinritt]

It's not my job to change your mind or your views nor am I interested in it. You made a poll/discussion before and I've already stated my views and I'm not going to repeat it. Take it or leave it. Happy year ends~!

Just noticed that it was different OP and we had a similar views on it. I'm still staying with my views on it though.

Also imo, there no need to specifically adopt how they classify it unless it is displeasing the authors themselves. Language is arbitrary, what doesn't work in east could work in the west.

 

[kaza_hesto]

Not here to change minds, just giving comment.

I generally agree with SH and Y being two different genres and avoid tagging stuff as both. I do recall some things I've read though where the whole series would be solidly SH, then in the extra chapter a bedroom scene was added. I think I tagged it as both in this case, as sort of an indicator that the series was mostly SH, with a bit of Y at the end not adding to the story. How effective this tagging was at conveying what I meant I have no idea.

On another note, has someone been vandalising tags? I'm looking at my recent uploads and everything has both SH and Y tagged.

 

[ununseti]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN Some examples of anthologies where it might be reasonable to have both tags: Hirari, Tsubomi, Parfait, etc.

 

[kaza_hesto]

@boag That's my understanding as well. From Boys Love Manga and Beyond: History, Culture, and Community in Japan:

shōnen’ai—This term combines “boy” (shōnen) and “love” (ai) and has been most widely used in reference to commercially published shōjo manga from the 1970s into the 1980s. It is sometimes used retrospectively today to describe these works, but the term, now more closely associated in popular discourse with pedophilia, has largely fallen out of favor.
...
yaoi—An acronym for yama nashi, ochi nashi, imi nashi (which might be translated as “no climax, no point, no meaning”), this self-mocking label was coined in 1979 and disseminated by an influential dōjinshicircle. It became popularized in the 1980s in reference to BL works that have not been published commercially, but it is sometimes used to encompass both commercial and non-commercial works.
boys love—Pronounced “bōizu rabu” and usually written in the katakana script, this term first appeared in the commercial BL sphere at the beginning of the 1990s. It is most frequently used as a label for commercially published manga and light novels, but it can also be used as a label for non-commercial works. It is often abbreviated “BL.”

In addition to their overlapping usage in Japan, note as well that the common use of “shōnen’ai,” “yaoi,” and “boys love” in English and other languages among fans outside Japan often differs from the meanings given above.

EDIT: Added quote tags

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Holy crap, these are more replies than I predicted. Tagging does work after all...

As I can't really handle all of these at once, I'll split my reply into two parts: the first is going to reply to everyone except Pokari and the second is especially for Pokari.



@boag

it is my understanding that the terms shounen-ai and shoujo-ai came about from western influences and have no roots in japanese culture,

I agree.


@firefish5000

Is this part of your master plan to take over the forums and, eventually, the world!? #BathLoliNation

Um... no??? _{(Frantically shifts eyes around)}

So it WAS intentional!

_{(Eye shifting intensifies)}

Most likely, a good yuri would morph out of a shojou-ai series. Although, I cannot think of many authors that are willing to depict such progress in a series(not my main genre anymore though). Even if you argue that once it morphs, it is no longer shojou-ai, we will still have the tag since it was already there.

Basically, any SH story can be morphed into a Y one and since the tags are already there, why fix what's not broken? I disagree.

First of all, as someone who writes for a hobby, I doubt that any good series will change their themes whose finale differ so much from the beginning, unless you are talking about Madoka Magica. Spoiler alert.

Spoiler

It started out so innocent and ended up something like Death Note and this shifting in themes unironically works.

Aside from Madoka Magica, examples for such drastic theme shifts are so rare that I'd argue your point is so unlikely that it is ignorable.

But, it is still possible. For the sake of the argument, let us assume that a shoujou-ai manga had their main couple to have sex as the finale for season one, and at season two finale everyone had sex. I'd argue that this series has turned into yuri.

My argument is that Y contains SH whilst vice-versa does not. at this point, the series is no longer shoujou-ai as it now features sex more than once; it is no longer just intimacy. But, without a quote from a credible site, I am breaking rule 3 since this is just my opinion. There are, however, no official definitions for these terms, instead there are just commonly-accepted gists. What better place to quote commonly-accepted gosts than Wikipedia? Here are quotes from Wiktionary:

Shounen-ai
Noun. shounen ai (plural shounen ai) (slang, anime, manga) A narrative or visual work featuring a romance or non-sexual relationship between two or more males, primarily intended for a female audience.

Yaoi
(slang, anime, manga) A narrative or visual work featuring a romance or sexual relationship between two or more males, primarily intended for a female audience.

Note: apparantly there's no definition for shoujo-ai in Wiktionary so we'll have to make do eith the male counterparts. In my argument, the gender is interchangeable since we're discussing about severity.

Even if you argue that once it morphs, it is no longer shojou-ai, we will still have the tag since it was already there. Not to mention failing to describe the first half of the series would not yield much benefit for us.

Yuri, by definition, is basically shoujo-ai + sex. Omitting shoujo-ai will not misrepresent the series because yuri got it covered.
_____________
| . . . . . ___ . . . .|
|Sex . .|GL| . . . |
|____________|

This is a venn diagram. The outside circle represents yuri while the inner circle represents shoujo-ai.

This took five minutes. Appreciate my masterpiece.


@Pika

But for yaoi and yuri, they are most likely having sex and the genitalia are censored (if you call that black bar, that hides nearly nothing, censoring)

Pika agrees with me.


@plsnobully

The tag shounen/shoujo-ai applies in both cases, whether they go all the way or just hinting of same gender romance, yuri/yaoi should apply only where they go full on smut. I wouldn't mind if they were used exclusive to each other, it would make whatever you're looking for easier to find

Yuri and yaoi is shoujo/shounen-ai with sex.
Shoujo/shounen-ai without sex is not yuri/yaoi.
Y already has SH in them thus making SH tag unnecessary.


<sub><sup>Tiipo does not wanna get into the argument so...


keinritt neither</sup></sub>


@ununseti

Some examples of anthologies where it might be reasonable to have both tags: Hirari, Tsubomi, Parfait, etc.

I'd argue that anthologies are the exception to the "separate SH and Y" rule as they are a collection of different stories; some SH, some Y; and this is one of the cases where using both tags together makes sense.


@kaza_hesto I just realized that I could've used your quotation in my argument with firefish5000 buuuut I'm not gonna because I'm lazy.


_{@Pokari wait for your reply until tomorrow please.}


Btw, _{today ^{I learned that the sub and sup formats can overlap...}}

 

[FireFish5000]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN
A good romance yuri would give a good reason for them to fall in love with each other. Starting off with innocent characters, strangers even, is not unheard of. Rather, in a romance genre, it would be unnatural for yuri to pop up without shojou-ai occurring beforehand. Not every author is capable of depicting progress, but doing so does not significantly change themes. And, even if it did, following a theme is not the goal of every author.

That said, romance and yuri are not my main genre, and I have no examples of that genre to back up my claim. However, if you could just pretend the MC is a girl, Kimi no Iru Machi is a great example of how a relationship could naturally develop. It starts off innocent^{(i think, its been a while, and its far too long for me to re-read to verify)}, and becomes something more over time. If he were a girl, the first half would be shojou-ai, and second half yuri.
_{and this was rated quite high back in bato.to days. I wonder what happened....}
And again, I doubt misrepresenting the first ~100 chapters would do us any good here. Rather, someone without patience or care for the shoujou-ai would have a hard time even starting this series. It takes forever for things to take off.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@firefish5000 Oh wow the comments on that manga is savage.

Back to the debate, you're just repeating yourself. My point is that, even with their differences, yuri already contain shoujo-ai. This is comparable to saying that you need to eat both bread and carbohydrates to be healthy. Bread is already carbohydrate, so eat the frickin bread already.

 

[Tiipo]

Let’s just end it with a no homo (joke)

 

[plsnobully]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN like you said Y does have SH in it, so technically it isn't wrong to include it in the tags. But using them exclusively makes it easier to find exactly what you're searching for , so I'm for the change.

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

I have successfully changed someone else's mind while doing a challenge to change my mind.

 

[scripted]

Well much have been said has been said and yes SH and Y have clear distinction. What I've experience for the long time I used to search homo romance with SH then go smutty with Y. Well too tired but you get the gist.

 

[cervidae]

i'm lazy so i skimmed what you wrote; still disagree. i mean if sexual innuendos are all that differentiate yuri from shojo ai then like. there's a general smut tag that can be used. all works that heavily focus on same sex relationships could be listed under gl or bl / yuri or yaoi and the 18+ ones also marked as well. 18+ y'know