Concerning the US Protests and Our Rules

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@firelight
I was answering to another user and their complaints where they used HK protests as a poor example. What was your point?
 
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note: sorry for the wall of text, i don't tend to re-read what i write, bad habit i know...

@Tamerlane yeah, i came to the concclusion that good and bad don't really eaxist either, i'm just tired and pissed off that people can't see anything with a critical eye: confirmation bias, prejudices, social bubbles,etc... perhaps the reason i gravitate so much towards grey morals stories is exactly because i like figuring out which characters are intelligent enought to know that the situation they're dealing with is stupidly complex and which have tunnel vision, these days, it appears that the only people without tunnel vision are the ones who don't talk about these matters at all.

personally, i only perceive egoism and altruism these days, yet neither means the other is bad, egoism can perfectly be acceptable and right while altruism can be poisonous and dangerous, it all depends on the context, but in my view? everyone is a bad person right now in the world, myself included, still, that's a comprehension that i don't expect most people to reach and it just saddens me.
it would be nice if the world was as simple as "evil bad, good nice" which is how it seems to me most people on the two main sides of this matter see the world, but no, that is not the case at allbut i'm as moderate as they come and have also baiscally given up on life and humanity since years ago, so who cares in the end.

what drives the world nowadays are likes and being relatable to big labeled communities, not trying to take in mind the best interests for everything or keeping care of what fairness and justice actually means, as long as you have a sensible idea, push it to radical extremes and find the right leverage, you'll be granted a following, the way i see it, nobody actuallycares about anything that's going on now unless it directly affects them, and honestly, i'm pretty sure not even 10% of the people who sport the blm tag knows what it actually means to be opprossed, to be a minority, to be stripped of rights, to kow what it feels like to strive for you own survival and not to be forgotten in the sands of time.

hell, i don't even know it myself if not under some very faint shades of that what with my mental and social condition, but that's exactly why i don't go aorund taking a political stance for people that aren't myself, all that i say, i say based on what i personally see, on what i personally feel... most people instead, at least on twitter, seem to go the other way around taking gladly the issues of other people upon themeselves without even realizing what those issues actually are.

something i find particularly... "odd"(as "funny" might be misinterpreted) is how some people defend the burning and destroyal of structures and building as if people's lives don't depend on them, as if disabled and poor people won't need those buildings, and when they do aknoeldge that's not the case, almost as if it was a joke they say "that will be repaired, after all this is over, the city will cover all the losses"
the city is the government, the police is the government, and people are expecting the government to cover for all the damage being done? lmao.
i understand now why theywant to donate to X foundations, but considering how the situation is complicated, i can't see anything good coming out of al of this when into my eyes neither of the two groups are doing what they say they're supposedly doing, the police is doing the oppositeof their motto, and blm protesters/rioters are doing the opposite of what they've set out to do... however, of course, that'snot everyone in these groups, there's peaceful protests and fair cops, but that is just getting swept under the rug, didn't see a single video or article about the black people being killed due to riots/looting(whether directly or indirectly) and those who need special assistence being denied it or having their lives made a hundred times harder from the riots on my twitter tl, but there are those, those articles and events exist, like the cop who got killed over a tv a couple days ago from a looter; but police mis-management and brutality gets spotlight... which is fine, if what gets done of bad on the other side didn't get completely ignored.


basically what i'm saying is: there's a lack of consciousness in the decisions people are making these days and i have yet to see someone take any responsability for all the destruction and all the poeple getting hurt from either side, from my outsider's perspective, it all feel like senseless violence from cops and senseless destructionfrom the rioters, i'm glad for the peaceful protesters and the politicians and cops who are actually trying to have civil discourse and taking proper measures to defend civilians, but when the vocal minority drowns the injustice from one side while emphasizing to extreme levels the injustice from the other, i can't really feel empathy.

i just hope people will learn to take responsibilites and this will all get fixed, but by how things are going, the opposite seems more likely as in the last decade or so being an extremist of either side has become very prelevant on social media compared to actually trying to see the world for how it is: a very complex thing in which, if you want to drive forward a singular idea you'll be met with sacrifices to be made, and as such, figuring out a middle ground is the only way to not create a divide which will result in senseless ocnflict such as what is happening now.
 
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I'm honestly pretty disappointed in Mangadex's stance here. I get that this site is used around the world and that not all readers care about American politics, but this is not a political issue. Racism is not a political issue, it's one of basic human rights.

I also understand wanting to give people a place to escape to, to escape all the troubling thoughts these protests and issues are raising. But as others have pointed out, there is no escape for the people who have to suffer through police violence, discrimination, and outright hatred. I'd ask everyone who's taking advantage of the escape that fiction provides to take a moment and think about what it would be like if you *couldn't* escape. Spend 1 minute thinking about what people are protesting for, and consider what you would do in their shoes. What if the discrimination was against weebs, and being one was always publicly visible? What if, whenever a manga reader was killed by police, people's first reaction was "well they smoked weed 10 years ago" or "it was obviously a setup, nothing wrong here"?

Just to close out my thoughts on this, I really wish Mangadex would be a bit stricter moderating its comment sections when it comes to racist content. 4chan (even /a/ or /jp/) is a wasteland of n-words and bigotry, and the site has a reputation to match (of fostering hate). I'd honestly hate if this site that we all love got the same reputation.
 
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Honestly, more moderation would be the worst thing you could do. @Ununoctium

Moderate in moderation, and only intervene when you have to. When you give people the most freedom and room to breathe, that is when they become the most successful. The best way I can describe it is with a quote from the Tao Te Ching. (I've been reading too much on Daoist literature, dammit.)

If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself.

The more prohibitions you have,
the less virtuous people will be.
The more weapons you have,
the less secure people will be.
The more subsidies you have,
the less self-reliant people will be.

Therefore the Master says:
I let go of the law,
and people become honest.
I let go of economics,
and people become prosperous.
I let go of religion,
and people become serene.
I let go of all desire for the common good,
and the good becomes common as grass.​
-Laozi, The Tao Te Ching, 57

Some of the things here may seem weird on the face of it, but Laozi's basically saying that usually the most effective route is one with minimal human interference and that expends the least amount of unneeded energy.

It's action through nonaction, as for every action there is an opposite reaction.

The more you censor, crackdown and try to preach and browbeat others, the more they will come to resent you and will do the opposite of what you want to spite you. If you instead talk to them and discuss with them in good faith, you can slowly undo any damage they have done.

Additionally, you appeal to empathy but you must acknowledge simultaneously that you must treat even those you most vehemently disagree with at the same level of respect, as if they have only voiced their opinion in a civil manner, then it shouldn't be cracked down on. I'm certain that any bigotry can easily be debunked or made to seem silly, as the best disinfection at the end of the day is sunlight.

Trying to surpress or to interfere with the spread of something will only lead to it getting more popular. It's the Streisand effect, the golden apple of forbidden knowledge everyone seeks to obtain.

The best thing you can do is leave people to their own devices and only interject when they have done something to harm others or that is clearly wrong.

Racism itself will die out if argued against naturally and if exposed for its many shortcomings. Try not to force it's eradication or you risk propelling it back into the public conscience again. (I'll also point out that 4chan more or less gets slandered a lot. Really the only board that is as bad as it's portrayed is /pol/.)
 
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The thing I'm the most worried about for a lot of people here is... is their apparent inability to understand why its so much worse when governmental enforcers (cops, troops) misbehave. Like, even if both sides are doing bad, one is supposed to be held to a higher standard.

"B-but what about looters" is in no way a defence to how american police has been shown to behave on live camera over and over in the last week. Some of you other non-americans should stop trying to speak for the rest of us, what happens in their great third world country ripples across a lot of the western world. I for once care about human life as much as is reasonable and would not like this kind of abuse to spread to my lands.

But hey, if trump gets away with putting the boot on the 1a, I look foward to him doing the same to the 2a right wingers and militia types laughing about cracking down on these protests. Because as soon as he doesnt need em he will.

Side note, cops with 3% tats are a riot, lol, talk about not understanding shit.
 
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in complete contrast to my previous post, i'll keep it short: ^this(tamerline's post, dunno if someone else wrote in the meanwhile)
(even though i can see it easily being misunerstood, i think i get what you're saying Tamerline, but i can imagine many just seeing your point as something far more extreme and ridiculous than what you're hinting at... aah, misunderstandings... how i loathe them...)
 
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@Firefly i don't think anyone has defended the police here though? maybe one guy, but in general it seemed to me after reading the whole thread that the generals entiment is that rioters are bad, but police are worse, yet just because there's something worse does't mean the less bad thing should be ignored.

eye for an eye and the world goes blind, just cause there's been hundreds of cases of police brutalities i don't see how that could validate other crimes, everyone should be held accountable for their crimes and going against the ideologies they themselves set out to hold in high regard, not just who is worse, or we fall into the war mentality of only the winners get to choose what's right and wrong.
 
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@Tamerlane you make a lot of good points. I do think one thing you said:

Racism itself will die out if argued against naturally and if exposed for its many shortcomings.

Isn't necessarily correct. In my experience, racists don't tend to argue in good faith, and any good-faith arguments quickly devolve into name-calling, or just ending the conversation with nobody's mind changed and everybody frustrated.

Overall though, you're right. Censorship isn't a good thing, but I'm not sure what the solution is. Unmoderated (or very loosely moderated) forums become perfect echo chambers for groupthink.
 
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@iota-09 I just spent over an hour reading a lot of it, a LOT of people in this thread were justifying the police actions in one way or another. Be they conspiracy theories, saying how the protests are unjustified or how those "veiled slur" brought the police response on themselves. Or just laughing about the misery, that to. Saying there is no need to make a big deal out of this is (imo) pretty much condoning their behaviour, albeit indirectly.

It's not just a racist issue to be sure, the american police seems both undertrained and lacking in ethics in a lot of areas, this is bad for all. However, mnorities and "low income" areas get it even worse and so that is the obvious flashpoint.
 
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@iota-09

Don't worry, I'm quite the blabbermouth myself at times.


I really gave up on morality the more I did my research into philosophy and how simplistic it is. For instance, Daoism rejects morality and only makes a distinction between those who are two caught up in themselves and those who are able to forgo such things and be a peace with the way things are. Typically others that preach in Daoism are scene as trying to force people into their state of mind more than anything.


The truth is that those who believe themselves to be the most moral, usually end up doing the worst things. Hitler believed he would unite the German people from the oppression and discrimination they were facing by the international community, but he always blamed the problems on others and kept trying to scapegoat until the point where only atrocities could come from it. It doesn't take much for good men to do bad things, it just takes the proper framing and ideological reinforcement, people who are power hungry to predate on people's good whims and good intentions to cause things to go wrong. Countless revolutions have turned into dystopian nightmares because they sought to enforce one ideological view point, and when they couldn't bring about the promised utopia, the power hungry rose and began to purge and discriminate against their ideological dissidents. You only need to see the USSR and China for those cases, let alone Cambodia and North Korea.

If I were to hypothesize, I think the concept of human morality is an evolutionary feature and is so human centric that it can't be used as objective in any real sense. We're dust in the cosmic wind living in this insanely absurd and unlikely world full of randomness and confusion due to a million variables and independent decisions all coming together to form a result. People want to cite a specific reason for things that have no order in them, and that leads them to trying to justify or explain things that don't have any order to them. Though, now I'm going to absurdism and that's a rabbit hole in and of itself.
 
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@Firefly i literally read through the whole thread, every single message one by one in a couple hours, and i'm pretty sure you could count all the people who had those views on one hand, also, bar a few who i think were trolling or just really very much unperceptive and possibly out of their mind for a variety of reasons, various other ones were either simply misunderstood or had a mix of good and bad points in their opinons... but not that it matters anyway, we're just weebs spewing random crap on a site that's barely or even fully illegal piracy depending on the case, i wonder how many of us actually support the artists of the mangas we read here even, but also that, doesn't really matter, though i definitely don't make anybody to be any less of a human being for having an opinion i may or may not disagree with(as long as they're capable of civil discourse)
 
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Let me clarify by "die-out."

There will always be people in the world who believe insane shit for seemingly no good reason. Hence why we still have people who think the earth is flat, the holocaust didn't happen and that we can trust politicians.

What naturally happens is that, even if we don't convince the person doing the arguing, the others who see or listen to the argument can form their own conclusions based on how well argued the points are and how others can verify their claims. Gradually, those set in their ways will begin to either have their minds eroded by those around them changing their minds. (Like how there's lots of stories of black men befriending klan members and slowly dissolving their groups as their world views are challenged) Or those so ideologically set in their beliefs will become such a minority that they can be ignored or simply mocked away. Their ideas will become so laughable on their own that they can be offhandedly dismissed in a satirical fashion.

I'd actually disagree with you on that last point. I think overly moderating forums tend to leading to echochambers more often than unmoderated or minimally moderated forums and different people from various perspectives can challenge one another without fearing recompense or that they'll be removed. However, people that try to remove any views that conflict with their own tend to form echochambers. If you remove all the dissidents, eventually what you end up with is a point of groupthink where everyone is trying to prove themselves to be the most pure devotees of their beliefs and principles, and outsiders that come in to criticize the group will be immediately shunted. Hence why I try to advocate for minimal regulations on discussion and only mod interference when it is absolutely necessary, as trying to silence those that you disagree with will lead the the free marketplace of ideas falling apart and people becoming polarized.

Hence why I tend to full in the method of a hands-off approach. Let things naturally resolve themselves and if action must be taken, let it present itself to you in its own way. Then again, I have been reading waayyyyyyyyy too much Daoist literature lately, so that may be coloring my point of view.
@Ununoctium


Thanks, though that's mostly because I'm extremely apathetic, and go by the philosophy of "live and let live" mostly. Probably because Jimi Hendrix has taught me a lot about not giving a fuck about what other people think and just going my own way.
@Midoriha Which is really ironic that I named myself after a man who killed 17 million people in an attempt to restore the Mongolian Empire but whatever.
 
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@iota-09 It's really hard to tell if they're trolling or just sharing their opinions in the guise of trolling you know? I read all if it to for better or worse.

Also for what its worth, being weebs trying to find stuff to read on the cheap really doesnt matter much in this context does it? Loving hentai really shouldn't change the value of ones opinion on things like this. I do love the guy saying gray zone scanlators wont find help among lefties tho... dunno if he ever met one, but most actual lefties are not that big on copyright laws lol!
 
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@Tamerline and your hypothesis, i bellieve to be correct: morality, law, phisophy and all those things are a construct of human society, you won't see animals calling out on other animals for not having abided by some weird roles imposed by somoene in their region or whatever, they just live for survival, all of these concepts are concepts humans created to hold a stable sociey and control as best as possible our proliferation and losses while keeping some semblance of sanity in the face of chaos and of complete anomalies(i.e. serial killers)

i can kinda see abit of that in some of the key passagges from "thus spoke Zarathustra", especially in the way of leading a free world... but that one is so easily misunderstood it kinda feels wrong to cite here right now, even though it's a staple for grey moralities.

anyway, to be honest, i'm not sure how much is there left to say you nailed down almost everything, and the rest was nailed down by others.

going back to the real goal of the thread, i don't think the first post did anything wrong, and the moderation itseslf wasn't too bad, it's just the motives of said moderation that felt a bit out of place at times(like, i didn't even know what "jogger" meant so to see such a strong response to term felt rather jarring) and the donation link... eh, i don't know, i don't really want to delve into the argument there, but keeping a place for peopllle to discuss while announcing it would be allowed in the mangas and manga discussions themselves is among the best choices the site could have made, even if likely not the actual best, but i'm definitely not one to say what would have been the truly best course of action.

p.s.: also about "live ad let live"... man, i'd love if that saying was used rightly like you seem to be doing, but most people just use it to excuse going against the rules, it's probably the most misused saying in history imho

@Firefly i know, that was actually my point, but it was also to exemplify how we're just a nieche inside a nieche, as tamerline put it, "We're dust in the cosmic wind living in this insanely absurd and unlikely world"
it's good for discourse, but ultimately, i doubt anyone here will change the world, i'd be surprised if anyone here even just changed their opinon after reading these 19 pages of comments
 
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@iota-09

It pays to be a huge fucking nerd sometimes.


I've been meaning to write a few books, some just a bunch of ramblings about my philosophical outlook and some meant as narrative pieces, but I mostly just do it between periods of study and other stuff. I write as stuff comes to me, and if something inspires me or if I get interested in an idea, I'll explore it.

Also, the person at the bottom of this page will be the 420th reply. Make it count, future person.
 
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