Genjitsushugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki - Vol. 4 Ch. 17 - The Battle at the Outskirts of Randel

[Nep]

@boag

Eh, you said "kill more braincells than shotgun to the head" so I assumed killing braincells was worse.

I wanted even worse than that.

And I don't deny losing my braincells. I felt it screaming in agony as they died a horrible death reading about that dumb strategist. So many of them died that I have found a new appreciation for terrible stories that don't cross a certain extremely abysmal level of idiocy that I cannot even begin to describe. Its like what you once thought was golden suddenly become legendary sacred treasures as trash became gold and this... new pile of trash... came out from god knows where.

Its like i have reached some sort of enlightenment... but lamer and dumber. It's fine if you can't find a better description to use though. Just thought i'd ask.

@Wolvenworks The only time i drank alcohol was during a taste test event during a group holiday (event chosen for my alcoholic family members) and the time where the only other choice was guava juice. Why do people even like bitter things :/

 

[Wolvenworks]

@boag i dunno. on one hand i only had that mango beer once, and i'm not a booze guy. on the other, this pops out a chapter once in a month-ish. i think i like both-ish

 

[Bireus]

She waved the death flag like its nothing

 

[Wolvenworks]

@Nep the same question to ask when people drink unsweetened coffee (i'm a tea guy)

 

[Nep]

@Wolvenworks

Fun fact, bitter fruits are bitter so that animals don't eat them. its a taste that's meant to be unenjoyable.

And here we are, enjoying the bitterness of life that is coffee, bittergourds and other foods and drinks.

Acquired taste be damned. More like acquired masochism.

Not that i have the right to say anything since I take spicy food. ACQUIRED MASOCHISM!

 

[yyluca]

Spoiler

there will be a heads rolling on the floor at the end of this arc, prepare your heart guys 😙

 

[Doodmandood]

@Yautja

Spoiler

As I said before, I agree with most of what you said, especially the part where there are holes in their plans. But I don't agree with you calling this criminally stupid that works because of sheer luck. Why? Because while there are holes, this was made with a detailed plan of action. There is no dumb luck when you have a detailed plan, only success and failure and maybe some disruptive elements unplanned for. But these disruptive elements can be dealt with by amending the plan, which they did. There is no luck when they are working hard to make the plan work, and that is exactly what is happening here.

Your example also doesn't describe what is truly happening here, as that one didn't seem to have any plan at all, just use brute force to force the opposition to follow.
While success and failure is not the sole factor in determining stupidity and genius, it does affect the perception of people on who is a genius or not. You can actually see it in our own past, several geniuses were not recognized during their time and were mocked instead. But now long after their death, when their ideas have been proven true, they are being praised as geniuses.
I have even read somewhere that some military strategies were deemed crazy and suicidal, but when it worked, they praised it nonstop. And I'm talking "Strategy" here, not your example which cannot even be considered a strategy.
Edit: Why am I talking about people's perception when it comes to genius? Because unlike a person's intelligence, strategies need validation and success in order to be considered genius.

 

[Yautja]

@Doodmandood

Spoiler

You can disagree all you want, and normally I don't do this, but you're plain fuckin' wrong. No shades of gray, not difference of opinion, nothing. Wrong, plain and simple. Detail doesn't implicitly make a plan better, certainly not in this case. The plan is fundamentally fucked. There is a shit ton of dumb luck going on here and unaccounted for variables that just magically disappear or are satisfied by dumb luck. "Working hard" doesn't mean no dumb luck is involved. Detail or effort doesn't nullify or remove luck from the equation. A detailed plan may reduce the influence of luck, but it never, ever removes it. There are always, and I literally mean always, unpredictable variables, unexpected changes, or random encounters. A detailed and rigid plan full of superfluous variables is shit compared to a flexible plan. If you work in software development you'd know exactly what word I'm thinking of right now, and why detail != good. And in this case, the details this guy cares about aren't the ones that'll save him from getting fucked. This is a basic false equivalence.

No example does, and that's not the point of it either, but it sure as hell paints a picture as to why you're wrong. Your defense of this "strategy" is exactly why I gave the examples I did, this isn't a strategy, it's autistic screeching painted as a plan. It's a stupid person's idea of a smart man's plan. The only reason this seems smart or worked isn't because the plan is good, it's because the author contrived it. And those geniuses who were praised after death were actually intelligent and ahead of their time, this fucking retard is just a retard who got lucky. Comparing this guy to a mocked genius who suffered in their time for their genius, such as Galileo, is laughable. This guy isn't a genius, by your own admission, and comparing him to them just highlights your inconsistency. Your defence of this bullshit plan hedges on two presumptions.

1) The plan is good, regardless of success
2) The success of the plan leads to the perception that it is good

Both of which are false. Wrong. Incorrect. Untrue. You're either not looking at the big picture or simply delusional if you think any decision this overgrown house-cat made was anything more than lethally stupid. Starting a civil war is never the fuckin' solution to test a ruler, nor bait out and group together bad actors, especially not when there are obvious better options on the table. Sorry, but you've said enough impressively stupid shit for me to realize I'm wasting my time. Shit like:
"There is no luck when they're are working hard to make the plan work"
"strategies need validation and success in order to be considered genius."
"There is a fine line between stupid and genius. If it succeeds, it's genius; if not then it's stupid."
"while there are holes, this was made with a detailed plan of action. There is no dumb luck when you have a detailed plan, only success and failure and maybe some disruptive elements unplanned for"
This shit is the ramblings of an idealistic child who knows precious little of the world and should never have been typed and if you don't see what's wrong with those sentences as generalizations, ironclad rules or occasional rules, I'd get more out of talking to a wall.

 

[youiri65]

all the discussion aside, is there someone who can point me to what section in hte LN is the recent chapter is in right now?

 

[Doodmandood]

@Yautja
Dude, I'm not disagreeing with everything you said, and now you're personally attacking me? English is my secondary language and I'm trying to express my take on this as best as I could, as politely as I could.
And remember that this is just a manga based on a web/light novel. Plot holes will be present, so this is actually as detailed a plan when it comes to web/light novel as you can possibly get, a proper novel will have better but this is not that. There is no need to be toxic, this is just for our enjoyment. If you actually think that this plan is so idiotically nonsensical, then it might be better if you just find a more detailed proper novel to read than this.

 

[Yautja]

@Doodmandood
I didn't say you are, so not relevant. I don't recall attacking your English, also I haven't seemed to have misunderstood what you've said, so clarity or English being your second language is also irrelevant.

You've said stupid shit, that's not a personal attack. Acknowledging and addressing that you have said extremely stupid shit is an unpleasant fact, not a personal attack. A personal attack is an ad hominem, an abusive remark that is not relevant to the claims or position of a person and used to deflect attention from their position and lack of a counter argument. This is hyperbolic but if I say "fuck the blacks" and someone says "you're a racist asshole" that's not an attack. I don't like it when people play the "You're attacking me" and "I'm the victim" card to avoid acknowledging valid criticism. Something you're performing excellently.

Thinking something is stupid doesn't mean I should ignore it, another simple fallacy.

Your justifications are just as hollow as the last. I'm not talking about the source material, I'm talking about this manga.

 

[Nep]

@youiri65

Its somewhere in volume 2 of the LN. Can't see the table of contents cos i can't find the translated chapters anymore (its being published by J- 'you can't find this shit in your country' novels.)

@Doodmandood @Yautja

Only a fucking idiot would engage into that kind of plan without express consent from the ruler¹, and even then, with consent from either the current, past or both king(s), that dumb ass plan seriously fractures trust and public perception of one or both of them². Not to mention causes a shit ton of national instability³, resentment, ⁴expends a great deal of money⁵, life⁶ and more. This Duke is a fucking retard⁷. There are much better ways to sniff out traitors and test a new king⁸ that don't involve gambling the entire livelihood of an entire country⁹.

Spoiler

I will have to agree with Doodmandood.

Let's go back to Yautja's initial post.

1. It was done WITH the express consent of the previous ruler. Hell, the guy pretty much ordered him to do it.
2. That's why its kept under wraps. Public perception would be 'King quells rebellion by corrupt nobles super fast'.
3. Actually restores stability because all the nobles were corrupt/spies/troublemakers. Gathering them in one spot and offing them is better than giving them the chance to escape and plot something else.
4. Resentment from who? The nobles? They already killed you once last time why care about them? The mercenaries? Thats why George gets executed. Its all kept under wraps as a failed rebellion.
5. Not much money is needed tbh. George wasn't planning on fighting. The biggest cost to the battle was the cannons which the nobles stole and the mercenaries which the nobles hired. One was unexpected expense, the other was uncontrollable expense. They are going to hire mercenaries to kill you either way.
6.Again, George wasn't planning on fighting. He didn't even move his troops. In other words, life lost = 0.
7. Maybe by modern standards. Please note that Mufasa here has no access to the internet and his neighbors (previous King/ Amidonia/ Dragon Duke) were pretty dumb. In-universe characters calling him a genius is well justified as they are all dumb.
8. Its not to sniff out corrupt nobles. Its not to test the new king (this is a ruse). It's a purge.
9 Its not really gambling when you have seen the hands before. Since you used gambling as an example, here is one. You are playing BlackJack. You see a future where you lose because you did not draw an additional card. So the only thing left to do is to draw a card and hopes the dealer deals bad card to your opponent.

[/spoiler]

Since you ridiculed Mufasa to be an idiot and called someone else delusional, I would like you to tell us your grand strategy that involves purging the nobles.

Also, you called him delusional. Thats an insult last i remember. English being his secondary language meaning he is being polite despite using a language he is not as familiar with and then you insulted him. A rude translation would roughly be "You rude arse. Please show some decency by not using personal attack"

 

[Doodmandood]

@Yautja
I never said you are attacking my English. I'm saying that despite English being my second language, I try my best to express my take on this.

"You can disagree all you want, and normally I don't do this, but you're plain fuckin' wrong."
Yes you did.

"You're either not looking at the big picture or simply delusional if you think any decision this overgrown house-cat made was anything more than lethally stupid."
There is no need to add that part, as this sentence would work without that.

"This shit is the ramblings of an idealistic child who knows precious little of the world and should never have been typed and if you don't see what's wrong with those sentences as generalizations, ironclad rules or occasional rules, I'd get more out of talking to a wall."
This is quite insulting, so I considered this as a personal attack on me. Instead of typing this, you could just counter what I typed with what you considered to be correct.

"Acknowledging and addressing the fact you said extremely stupid shit is an unpleasant fact, not a personal attack."
"Thinking something is stupid doesn't mean I should ignore it, another false equivalence."
Then counter it with what you considered to be correct and point out how they are wrong.

Edit:
"I don't like it when people play the "You're attacking me" and "I'm the victim" card to avoid acknowledging valid criticism. Something you're performing excellently."
How are insults valid criticism?

 

[Nep]

Seriously. Am i the only one who try seeing things from a character's point of view instead of the all-knowing Gods the readers are? There are plenty of stupid things that make so much more sense in context with the limited information a character from a story has.

 

[firosahoge]

Wow, major death flags. I could use some of MCs plot armor to extend to his friends right now.

 

[Xx_Itz_Jamez_xX]

Spoil me what happens next please.

 

[ninong]

Spoiler

the air force are souma's reinforcements. they will probably explain in the next chapter how they managed to seize control of the air force.

 

[IvoryPuma]

Cannons in front of the army without any unit to defend it or at least behind the troops, their commander must suck at Total War.

 

[Wolvenworks]

@Nep spicy foods are preety high on the masochist scale i say. and i'm still not sure why we like it. then again all hardcore gamers are inherently at least slightly masochists....you have to if you want to survive grinding

 

[Andiza]

@peoplewhosaid the duke is dumb

Spoiler

the duke just staged a rebellion to catch noble who runaway to his domain and to bait the one who support everyone but for now just wait who's gonna win the rebellion and war. the reason why the duke do that is he know everything already