Have a dedicated button to separate the old comment system from the new system

[shinya78]

Since someone might as well make the suggestion...

Ever since the complaints about the button that used to direct the old comments to the forums are now being used by the new system, and that the old chapter discussion comments are now being buried underneath it. I suggest adding a new button, not unlike the old one, that would serve the purpose of separating the new integrated comments from the old forum comments.

The old button could function the same as before, just rebranded to something different, while the new button would serve for the new integrated comments. For example, forum [Discuss]ions vs casual [Comment]s. (Or use the new button for the old system, whichever is easier for the devs.)

This is effectively a suggestion to rebrand the old chapter comments in the forums reader as DISCUSS(ions), as an example, to differentiate it from the new system that is taking over as the new COMMENT(s).

This would allow users to quickly comment using the new system, while keeping the old system just as easily accessible as it used to for forum discussions, ensuring that both systems could co-exist without so much a fuss.

"Can we have two buttons?": No, it's confusing, and that will lead to a further split of platform vs forums.

Confusing? How?
All this does is give easy access to what still exists as the old forum comments. The sub-forum where these old comments are located is already called Chapter Discussions for that specific reason. Rebranding the old system to something else would clearly tell the user what to expect, light comments about the chapter vs deep discussions about the chapter. Sure, anyone could use either system for whatever purpose with varying degrees of success, but having both options being openly available right in front for everyone to use is better than burying the old function underneath the new one. Users will naturally trickle down to whichever system they want for whichever purpose.

If the idea was having both alive as mentioned by @Bartolumiu

the plan is to keep both the new comments and the forums alive at the same time, with each having its own purpose.
Title and chapter comments on the new system, and general chatting and discussion here in the forums (so yeah, lurkers, you can keep lurking as you've been doing up until now).

Then this should be a no-brainer.

edit:

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Have two buttons: one for forums and one for on-site comments on the chapter list items

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Once again, the reason they give is that it'll be confusing. Citing that their example user would be "confused when they see that there are two kinds of comments now."

How is this a valid reason when:

• Implementing the [new comments system] while keeping the [old "comments" system](forum discussions) alive already establish the fact that there are indeed two kinds of comments now.
• They acknowledged that the button shouldn't open the reader if users only want to read the comments. This is the very same function the old button had, but for chapter discussions in the forums instead, the function already existed.

Hi, I'll post here a reply I received from the developers regarding this suggestion:

Do not open the reader if you just want to read the comments

"Valid. We will be exploring ways of doing this."

• They acknowledged that "read # older comments" should be renamed to indicate that these are the comments in the forums, which are separate from the new system. Surely their example users would see this, become confused, and ask "wait, there are two kinds of comments?".

Hi, I'll be posting here a developer reply regarding this suggestion:

Be explicit about the fact that older comments exist in the forums to prevent confusing it as if you're going to be navigated to the next page of comments.

"Valid. We'll be discussing on the wording side of things and see if we can be explicit with the fact that it is indeed the forums."

• Having two buttons would quickly let users choose whether to access and use the new system[Comments], or the old system[Forums] with a single click. Something the current setup allows for the new system, but an extra step is needed to be done for the old system. Was the plan to make the forum discussions more obscure than ever, by making it one click further away?

The only other valid reason left that I could think of that doesn't go into tinfoil hat territory that would legitimize their claim, is if, and this is a big IF:

• They assumed when the users asked for two buttons, it meant they should share the exact same icons.

To which I say, it should've been obvious that the icons should be different, without the need for us users to spell it out for them. Even then, making a new icon if none currently exists, shouldn't be out of the question.

If they still claim the same reason for refusal, or change goalposts, then by that point maybe it's due time to get the tinfoil hats.

 

[T-sama]

"No, two buttons is confusing."

I honestly can't understand how this argument is logical, changing the function of a buttom that was being used for months / years is by definition confusing to begin with, more confusing than having two buttoms since you're forcing people to do extra steps to go to the forum

Having two buttons might not be perfect but at least is better than changing a button function so late in the game and expect people to be happy with it

 

[shinya78]

I honestly can't understand how this argument is logical, changing the function of a buttom that was being used for months / years is by definition confusing to begin with, more confusing than having two buttoms since you're forcing people to do extra steps to go to the forum

Having two buttons might not be perfect but at least is better than changing a button function so late in the game and expect people to be happy with it

I explained my theory as to why they could've landed to that conclusion in my newest suggestion thread. If that proves true, then who's to say if that is not the only thing that they could've missed.

 

[BobBiscuit]

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Does this decision have anything at all to do with this?

Since the forum software isn't something we have much control over, building our own comment system allows us to implement features much more easily without the technical hurdles of the current platform. You're completely free to dislike the change, but this shift is necessary for us, we simply can't develop at the pace we want on a system we don't own.

Because all I'm getting from these two pieces of info, the devs being stubborn, other members of staff (particularly in the thread announcing the change) being hostile towards criticism of the new system, the UI itself being hostile and obtuse towards reaching the forums, and knowing that Mangadex has been both trying to cut costs and raise fund for a while is this sick knot in my stomach that says, "Mangadex has come to the conclusion that the forums need to be phased out for costs and control". Reassurances that you're not aiming to that end-goal are nothing without honest effort to show otherwise, and a second button is a relatively simple and easy way to go about showing that goodwill, especially considering that up until the update went live and woke the hornet's nest, it was how the button functioned to begin with. The devs need to give ground somewhere, or reassurances that the forum's not going anywhere will only continue to sound more and more like hollow corporate promises trying to cover up the sound of the executioner's axe getting sharpened in the background.

 

[shinya78]

Reminder that their "easy example"...

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

...can also apply should their example user sees that there's a button that would direct them to the separate comments that are inside the forums.

 

[jeezits]

I expect to be one of the first to get their ass kicked if that happened cause I admitedly can be a real ass, I try not to but it's hard to not make myself to be an ass when this change is just plain frustrating :v

Like, example, I can already see some of the series I follow that generally have discussion having no comments at all cause nobody created a thread for it + the fact that how many people are assuming this is a permanent change and now only supporters can post since these chapters have no discussions?

It becomes just plain infuriating with how things got fumbled hard and it's hard to be kind / nice when pushing back against it, mods seemingly dismissing the backlash then makes it even worse

lol I got banned for a month for pointing out the image serving problems are wide spread and not the fault of users. Then the dickhead who banned me admitted the image serving problems are wide spread and not the fault of the users in their very next post.

Web"devs" are the most useless people ever because every aspect of website design is user friendly, functions well, and doesn't need to be changed in any fundamental way, and this has been the case for a decade plus. It's why they keep doing things that fuck up websites more and more, because they're trying to justify their do-nothing career with busywork.

 

[JVick]

Unlikely. It'll be confusing

As opposed to clicking on the comments to find ourselves in the chapter part and needing to click on 'older comment's to go to a different place where we won't find the same comment, even finding newer comments? Come on...

I don't want to click twice each time I want to see the comments of a chapter I've already read. We had something that's clean and quick to use, why destroy it ? The only reason I can think of for this update to exist is that it comes from a higher up vibe coding something he shouldn't have done.

 

[chickenstalker]

Never ascribe to stupidity what can be ascribed to greed. I don't pay anything to read pirated manga, so I have no moral higher ground.

But MD is shooting itself in the foot. Scanlator groups thrive on forum discussions giving them feedback and kudos/cough coffee money cough. Killing discussions will turn away scanlating groups to other upload sites. No scanlators, no chapters. No chapters, no visitors. No visitors, no numbers to pad the sales brochure....oops.

 

[deedan06]

Even not considering how much of a downgrade the new comment system is to the old one, launching it the way they do is an incredibly stupid idea.

I get the idea of having a limited beta test first, but making it pay to talk is a sure fire way to make this change super unpopular. This is without a doubt the worst way one can possibly launch a new feature. Like this is guaranteed to make everyone hate it. Even the supporters will probably dislike this cause whats the point of a comment section if only you can talk.

Like if they launched the full thing straight up maybe some people would have actually liked it, but this way is guaranteed to make us all hate it.

 

[Pyoro]

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Two comment functions will always be confusing, that's a product of your choices. But how on earth is hiding one of them inside the other less confusing than at least making the separation clear by having the UI separate from the start?

The current implementation really just muddles the waters. "Read older comments" in fact isn't just confusing, it's straight up a lie. It implies the new system simply doesn't show all comments and you gotta click that to show the rest, as if it were the same comment thread when it's an entirely different systems. And the comments can, and most of the time will be, newer in these supposed "Older comments".

Hard to convince people to switch to a worse feature if you don't deliberately sabotage the other, I suppose.

• when the new comments were introduced, nobody of the devs cared about inevitable confusion, UI clarity, UI usability; it didn't matter it was all messy
• when users now predictably want a non-ideal but still improved usability to at least salvage something from this suddenly it's a deal breaker the idea isn't perfect

Sigh.

 

[JVick]

Can we at least create comment section without needing a pay daddy to open the door for us please ?

 

[ireadit]

Can we at least create comment section without needing a pay daddy to open the door for us please ?

Elsewhere, it was said this was a bug, and it was supposed to have been fixed yesterday. So, the fix should be there any minute now...

 

[Xerlith]

Behold, a 1 minute solution a junior dev could implement.

And yes, the drawing took longer than the HTML DOM manipulation.
This is not done out of 'not being sure how to resolve it', unless the devs have literally 0 idea about frontend.

This is done as a weird cash grab.

I could probably make a TamperMonkey script that moves this link to under the button automagically. I might get around to it today.

 

[JVick]

Behold, a 1 minute solution a junior dev could implement.

And yes, the drawing took longer than the HTML DOM manipulation.
This is not done out of 'not being sure how to resolve it', unless the devs have literally 0 idea about frontend.

This is done as a weird cash grab.

I could probably make a TamperMonkey script that moves this link to under the button automagically. I might get around to it today.

Well, here we go. What's confusing about that ? We could, also, delete the whole thing and roll back to the previous state...

 

[shinya78]

Edited the original post to include the dev response courtesy of @kouyo (don't shoot the messenger, guys), added bullet points to question their reasoning for refusal, some of which are supported by their very own response to different suggestions involving the new system, with receipts.

Behold, a 1 minute solution a junior dev could implement.

And yes, the drawing took longer than the HTML DOM manipulation.
This is not done out of 'not being sure how to resolve it', unless the devs have literally 0 idea about frontend.

This is done as a weird cash grab.

I could probably make a TamperMonkey script that moves this link to under the button automagically. I might get around to it today.

The chapter list button, brother, the one you press before you even get inside the reader is the button this thread is made for. That solution is for seekermoc's suggestion.

 

[Xerlith]

Edited the original post to include the dev response courtesy of @kouyo (don't shoot the messenger, guys), added bullet points to question their reasoning for refusal, some of which are supported by their very own response to different suggestions involving the new system, with receipts.


The chapter list button, brother, the one you press before you even get inside the reader is the button this thread is made for. That solution is for seekermoc's suggestion.

Lmao, I had multiple threads open and posted in the wrong one. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[curvedtree]

I honestly can't understand how this argument is logical, changing the function of a buttom that was being used for months / years is by definition confusing to begin with, more confusing than having two buttoms since you're forcing people to do extra steps to go to the forum

Having two buttons might not be perfect but at least is better than changing a button function so late in the game and expect people to be happy with it

It is corpo logic: "if I didn't come up with the idea, it is a bad idea"

Seriously though, they are just pushing people to become supporters of the site and the new "comments" tab is their way of doing it. They are creating a minor inconvenience for people so those few that are like "fuck it, I will pay so I can comment here" will end up paying them, they are creating a segregated space in Mangadex free users can't be a part, next thing they will do will be:

"gift a support so your friend can comment with you

"


Edit: Anyhow, I would like to point out, as so many others already did that the major annoyance in this update is the fact that to click in the "discussion" tab now marks the chapter as read, which I believe is a common complaint about the update. "Why would you click the discussion if you didn't read the chapter?" I literally don't have to read the chapter to open the discussion, I might want to know what is the general feeling of that chapter, I might want to open to thank the translator for something I might not be able to read at that moment, I might read the discussions and find someone saying why I should or shouldn't read that specific manga, there are several reasons to open the discussions before actually reading the manga. The way Mangadex created this new comment tab makes you directly obligated to open the manga because the tab is right there in the specific chapter, so what if I click to read the comments, close and then "forget" to both read the chapter and un-mark the chapter that is automatically marked as read? It is as I said in the start of my comment, it is a minor annoyance that can be easily contoured, MangaCorpo just have to accept their update idea is stupid, it was probably done by people that: never used a forum and would never comment in those chapters anyway.

 

[Kosnope]

Does this decision have anything at all to do with this?


Because all I'm getting from these two pieces of info, the devs being stubborn, other members of staff (particularly in the thread announcing the change) being hostile towards criticism of the new system, the UI itself being hostile and obtuse towards reaching the forums, and knowing that Mangadex has been both trying to cut costs and raise fund for a while is this sick knot in my stomach that says, "Mangadex has come to the conclusion that the forums need to be phased out for costs and control". Reassurances that you're not aiming to that end-goal are nothing without honest effort to show otherwise, and a second button is a relatively simple and easy way to go about showing that goodwill, especially considering that up until the update went live and woke the hornet's nest, it was how the button functioned to begin with. The devs need to give ground somewhere, or reassurances that the forum's not going anywhere will only continue to sound more and more like hollow corporate promises trying to cover up the sound of the executioner's axe getting sharpened in the background.

it's amazing how all these web designers look at a perfectly good system that has been working for ages, and decide "well I need to change SOMETHING". And because they have this overwhelming urge to fix something that's not broken, they decided to fuck up the entire system, all because 'well we might want some features in the future that nobody needs so we're gonna make a worse version of comments that are 5% of the original functionality'. Genius logic.

 

[Trevoga]

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

yeah, shame someone forced you to make two different kinds of comments
aren't you embarrassed having to post this

 

[Xerlith]

it's amazing how all these web designers look at a perfectly good system that has been working for ages, and decide "well I need to change SOMETHING". And because they have this overwhelming urge to fix something that's not broken, they decided to fuck up the entire system, all because 'well we might want some features in the future that nobody needs so we're gonna make a worse version of comments that are 5% of the original functionality'. Genius logic.

It's usually not the devs/designers, it's the middle managers that need to justify their existence.

The question is, has MangaDex become a full-fledged corpo to do so. Because if it's unpaid volunteers, the only question is - why the fuck.

 

[shinya78]

Edit: Anyhow, I would like to point out, as so many others already did that the major annoyance in this update is the fact that to click in the "discussion" tab now marks the chapter as read, which I believe is a common complaint about the update. "Why would you click the discussion if you didn't read the chapter?" I literally don't have to read the chapter to open the discussion, I might want to know what is the general feeling of that chapter, I might want to open to thank the translator for something I might not be able to read at that moment, I might read the discussions and find someone saying why I should or shouldn't read that specific manga, there are several reasons to open the discussions before actually reading the manga. The way Mangadex created this new comment tab makes you directly obligated to open the manga because the tab is right there in the specific chapter, so what if I click to read the comments, close and then "forget" to both read the chapter and un-mark the chapter that is automatically marked as read? It is as I said in the start of my comment, it is a minor annoyance that can be easily contoured, MangaCorpo just have to accept their update idea is stupid, it was probably done by people that: never used a forum and would never comment in those chapters anyway.

You could've just fully read the opening post to save you some trouble, or read this if the post is now too dayum lawng.