Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi wo Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 26.5 - My Happy Date ("Wholesome" Version)

[story645]

After their whole relationship ended a year before.

Which means he could've moved on to a whole different girl.

You ignore how she keeps thinking of him as kind and naive

And you ignore that she's dead serious when she says she'll always be his "comfort woman" when they start dating. And that by the end of the relationship, she still doesn't think what they had was a "normal" relationship. Which Aya very much could believe that his kindness and naiveté is why he's still w/ her even if he doesn't think she's his one.

ignore what he is actually shown to do,

What am I ignoring? He never initiates the physical affection. He never initiates the dates (this episode is debatable) except the fireworks festival. He never praises Aya or explicitly tells her he loves her. To someone as insecure and affection starved as Aya, yeah I think it reads like he's w/ her b/c she's there (it's casual) rather than b/c she's the one.

 

[GennArc]

Which means he could've moved on to a whole different girl.

Ayami: "So, to sum it up, he's always liked someone, huh?"
Hikari: "W-well, at least since before he met that Seki girl..."
Ayami: "That's a sure thing, then."
Hikari: "You don't know that! I mean, yeah, I'm his childhood friend, but I've never really paid attention to his love life until recently!"

And you ignore that she's dead serious when she says she'll always be his "comfort woman" when they start dating

And you know she's dead serious how?

she still doesn't think what they had was a "normal" relationship.

Quotes?

Which Aya very much could believe that his kindness and naiveté is why he's still w/ her

I thought he's still with her for sex?

What am I ignoring?

This chapter.

He never initiates the physical affection.

I thought he's with her for sex?

 

[story645]

"それでいいんだ" (which is roughly "I'm fine like that") becomes "I don't give a damn about everything else"

So I updated my translation b/c I don't like translating the Russian idiom that way b/c I don't think that's accurate. All of which to say that we're arguing about translations of a language neither of us speak, which means I'm gonna defer first to what feels most consistent w/ the art, second to the most consistent across multiple, and third to what's most consistent across the story. Like the Russian translation uses "fall apart" instead of "doomed", which is also the language of the chapter title and the visual metaphors.

 

[GennArc]

So I updated my translation b/c I don't like translating the Russian idiom that way b/c I don't think that's accurate.

The initial translation (I mean your Ru -> En) was pretty accurate I'd say.

Like the Russian translation uses "fall apart" instead of "doomed"

It says "At this pace she's gonna break up with the guy". They likely went for this TL because the original had

こんなんじゃいかのオトコとも別れちゃうぞ〜？

where orange is otoko = guy.

 

[story645]

Quotes

There was absolutely nothing stopping Yuu from inviting Aya to do the "normal" things that would've maybe helped her feel like a "normal" girl.

If Yuu was the one inviting me, I'd go anywhere -- even into the summer's sweltering, chaotic crowds.
If Yuu reached out his hand to me, there'd be nothing I couldn't endure.

If I could've been just a little more like a normal girl...
I'd have gone shopping with him, gone on dates, anything, everything.
<Snip>
I guess I really can't ever be a normal girl.
...I can't ever be Yuu's normal girlfriend.

I thought he's with her for sex?

No that Aya thinks he's w/ her b/c of the sex she's always initiating. Which also Aya's thinking she "bound him w/ her body"

This chapter.

Which, as we've discussed endlessly, is ambiguous on who initiated and paid for the date. Yuu can be not a jerk by wanting to stick w/ what he thinks is Aya's plan. Been thinking of how Hikari is also sometimes like this - asking him to the festival than saying never mind but he knows she wants it, and Aya's always flirty in a way that he's never sure how serious she is. All of which to say is that Yuu wanting to stick to the original plan doesn't necessarily communicate anything more than that he's used to dealing with these types of situations.

And you know she's dead serious how?

B/c the way the scene is written, there's no indication she isn't - the tone stays serious throughout.

She comforted me with her whole body after I lost what was basically my first gamble in life.
And she let out her own sadness and pent-up feelings, too.

Yami: “Yeah… I’ll keep being your convenient woman, always.”

We were both people who’d been hurt…
No, putting my pain on the same level as hers would be disrespectful to her.

 

[EijiRin]

@EijiRin
Haven't seen raws, but I feel like like second to last text bubble should have "my mouth", not "your mouth", as it have to be Yami's line.

True. Now it's fixed. Thanks!

 

[story645]

The initial translation (I mean your Ru -> En) was pretty accurate I'd say.

The second translation is what my grandma would mean when she'd say that idiom. Which "fall apart" is the connotation of that "break up", which goes back to translation is hard man.

Which I wanna make clear that none of this back and forth is intended as a dig on this translation. Every translation has to pick a naunce/connotation and something is always gonna get lost.

 

[GennArc]

There was absolutely nothing stopping Yuu from inviting Aya to do the "normal" things that would've maybe helped her feel like a "normal" girl.

Where does it say he wasn't?
Your argument revolves around your own intepretation of what she was saying back in 29 (even though she was simply responding to his "Next week there's a fireworks festival! ...oh, wait. There's no way you'd wade into a crazy crowd like that."), and even in this interpretation there's nothing indicating that he wasn't inviting her to do "normal things". We even see him doing that at the very least in 26, and we also see them doing "normal things" in this chapter.

No that Aya thinks he's w/ her b/c of the sex she's always initiating.

She's trying to initiate it in this chapter and he's still trying to stick with the movie theater plan.

B/c the way the scene is written, there's no indication she isn't - the tone stays serious throughout.

How can you read the tone there?
We even have scenes from the very same night from her perspective, and we know she's absolutely smitten.

The second translation is what my grandma would mean when she'd say that idiom.

If it went "мне на всех плевать" or "плевать я на всех хотела", it would mean what you wrote the second time. But "мне на всё плевать" means "I don't give a damn about anything".

 

[story645]

Where does it say he wasn't?

Use of the subjunctive tense mood.

She's trying to initiate it in this chapter and he's still trying to stick with the movie theater plan.

She's doing her "playful carefree cool girl" thing that he doesn't know how seriously to take and he knows she had wanted to go to the movie.

How can you read the tone there?

B/c either Yuu flags it when he thinks she's not being serious or there are some sort of tonal markers.

we know she's absolutely smitten.

Yeah, I think 95% of their dynamic is that she thinks she's in way more deeply than he is, so her being smitten doesn't contradict her seriously offering to be his convenient woman b/c that's how she'll "bind him"

 

[EchoGirl]

True. Now it's fixed. Thanks!

there's an extra s in busy now tho...unless it's on purpose/adding to the dirty joke XD;

 

[GennArc]

Use of the subjunctive tense mood.

Well, there's no subjunctive in the manga version. Should we write this point off because of an ambiguous translation?

She's doing her "playful carefree cool girl" thing that he doesn't know how seriously to take and he knows she had wanted to go to the movie.

If he's with her for sex, why is he still insisting on going to the movie?

B/c either Yuu flags it when he thinks she's not being serious or there are some sort of tonal markers.

When did Yuu ever say anything about anyone being serious or not serious? We basically never saw him reacting to something happening live, only reminiscing of the past scenes.

so her being smitten doesn't contradict her seriously offering to be his convenient woman

It definitely does. She is in love for the first time in her life, and you think she wants to be "a convenient woman"?
You bring up her "playful carefree cool girl" act when it's convenient, and then conveniently forget about it when it's contradicts your argument, even though this is most definitely a case when it's applicable.

 

[story645]

Should we write this point off because of an ambiguous translation?

I think the way the manga translates it is one way of conveying how Japanese does subjunctive via conditional, where "as long as" can map to "if" and it's use of would/I'd, the novel another, the Russian translation a third. And the art a fourth - I think Yom's conveying a dream like wish state w/ everyone else faded out. I think the lack of previous episodes showing Yuu and Aya just walking around like Aya is picturing here also supports that this is a wish.

If he's with her for sex, why is he still insisting on going to the movie?

He's a nice enough guy to insist on doing something he thinks Aya wants to do. Eta: from the perspective of someone who is insecure, this can read as basic behavior for him (autopilot) rather than strong indication that he specifically wants to spend time w/ them.

Which legit, do you have a theory of mind for an insecure teenage girl w/ attachment issues?

When did Yuu ever say anything about anyone being serious or not serious?

Facial expressions in the manga? "you're always lying" when he thinks she's not being serious about moving in together, "are you drunk" when she says she loves him

and then conveniently forget about it when it's contradicts your argument, even though this is most definitely a case when it's applicable.

If it was applicable then there would be some indication that she was doing it:

"turn my face toward him, lips puckered playfully"
"I let go of his hand and poke his nose playfully"

 

[GennArc]

I think the way the manga translates it is one way of conveying how Japanese does subjunctive via conditional, where "as long as" can map to "if" and it's use of would/I'd, the novel another, the Russian translation a third.

I thought we leave such cases as ambigous because

we're arguing about translations of a language neither of us speak

I think Yom's conveying a dream like wish state w/ everyone else faded out. I think the lack of previous episodes showing Yuu and Aya just walking around like Aya is picturing here also supports that this is a wish.

I think it's kinda always the case when portraying a couple in the middle of the crowd - all focus is on them, while other people are there just as a background. As for the second thing, Maruto just expressed that these extra chapters (+the next untranslated one) were made because he decided to add a little more of "Yami-senpai's dere that he couldn't fully capture in the doujin version", i.e. he only covered the main points of that flashback. Not to forget that this chapter is literally them going on a "normal" date.

He's a nice enough guy to insist on doing something he thinks Aya wants to do.

She is asking to go to the hotel and he knows she likes physical intimacy. So why does he refuse if he is in it for sex?

Which legit, do you have a theory of mind for an insecure teenage girl w/ attachment issues?

My theory is that every person has a more or less unique mind and way of thinking, and there is no such thing as "all insecure teenage girls think alike". Especially the ones that are fictional characters written by a male eroge author.

"you're always lying" when he thinks she's not being serious

She was talking about her family, he definitely didn't intend this as saying she was not serious.

"are you drunk"

Okay, fair. That is still some months into their relationship though, as opposed to that hotel scene being their second meeting ever.

If it was applicable then there would be some indication that she was doing it:

Not only are you quoting her POV chapters where she knows what kind of gestures and expressions she does, you seem to be missing that she was lying with her back to him in that scene:

Right in front of me was her pale, slender back.
Even when I held her shoulders, she didn’t show the slightest hint of annoyance.

 

[story645]

I thought we leave such cases as ambigous because

🤨 If you're gonna quote my own words, keep the next part:

which means I'm gonna defer first to what feels most consistent w/ the art, second to the most consistent across multiple, and third to what's most consistent across the story.

Which yeah, I think all the translations are pretty consistent that this is supposed to be subjunctive and the art supports that interpretation.

Not to forget that this chapter is literally them going on a "normal" date.

But has no handholding walk in a crowd scenes, which are a staple of every romance ever including Aya's dream scene.

So why does he refuse if he is in it for sex?

This is why I asked if you could get into the head of an insecure girl. He's refusing the sex b/c he's a decent enough guy to think that she really wants to go to the movie and is just teasing him about the hotel. Which in insecure spiral brain is kinda like how Yuu says yes to a date w/ his kohai or to all the setups - he's a nice guy who will go along w/ things to make other people happy.

"all insecure teenage girls think alike". Especially the ones that are fictional characters written by a male eroge author.

There are patterns that build into behavior patterns that authors rely on to build consistent characterization. Which I very much think Maruto has been doing here - otherwise the characters, especially Aya, wouldn't feel realistic.

She was talking about her family, he definitely didn't intend this as saying she was not serious.

I meant this:

"So yeah, I'll make you my boy toy, and we can just live a carefree life together! Haha!"
"Agh! You're lying again!"

you seem to be missing that she was lying with her back to him in that scene:

Which means Yuu couldn't see her expression, which Maruto/Aya uses precisely for these moments where I think she's dead serious and you think she's obviously joking.

There's also the context, where Yuu and Aya are going back and forth on Yuu trying to convince her this is serious and Aya saying she doesn't believe him & she closes the exchange here:

Yuu: “So, um… what I wanted to ask was…”
Yami: “What?”
Yuu: “This isn’t… just a whim, right?”
Yami: “……”
Yuu: “Like… once we’ve gotten over this, you’re not just gonna…”
Yami: “Don’t worry. Whenever you’re in the mood, I’ll let you do it again~”
Yuu: “That’s not what I mean, not in some casual way like that…”

She comforted me with her whole body after I lost what was basically my first gamble in life.
And she let out her own sadness and pent-up feelings, too.

Yami: “Yeah… I’ll keep being your convenient woman, always.”

We were both people who’d been hurt…
No, putting my pain on the same level as hers would be disrespectful to her.

Yuu wouldn't be the one asking if it was serious if he thought Aya was serious (even though the reader knows at this point that Aya is all in). So Aya is keeping w/ her other responses - which Yuu has been responding to seriously. But decided by the last time that basically she's broken so she can do whatever she wants.

There's no indication here that Yuu doesn't believe her - just that he truly thinks this is what she wants. Which Aya is encouraging by hiding her face while saying it.

 

[GennArc]

If you're gonna quote my own words, keep the next part:

Sorry.
But it kinda feels like saying "if there's even a trace of ambiguity, I'm going to treat it in my favor". Which is a valid approach, just makes it even more difficult to find a middle ground. Because I definitely don't find it consistent with the story, same about the art supporting it.

But has no handholding walk in a crowd scenes, which are a staple of every romance ever including Aya's dream scene.

If their "normal" date doesn't include that specific cliche, it doesn't count?

He's refusing the sex b/c he's a decent enough guy to think that she really wants to go to the movie and is just teasing him about the hotel.

That's what I'm saying, no matter what he's shown to do, you can always just go "she probably thinks he is just trying to act like a decent guy because she's insecure". Even though it's never confirmed by her thoughts and she only ever keeps thinking of him as kind, good-hearted and honest, which is almost the opposite of a young guy being in relationship just for sex.
You know about falsifiability principle, right? What kind of argument would convince you that she's not doing that "insecure thinking" thing?

Which means Yuu couldn't see her expression

Yeah, which is an argument I was using against your "she is serious unless she is explicitly shown to be doing her act" - Yuu couldn't see her expression, that's why there could be no indication of her doing the act.

There's no indication here that Yuu doesn't believe her

Well, the full quote goes:

We were both people who’d been hurt…
No, putting my pain on the same level as hers would be disrespectful to her.

Yami: “So… let’s exchange IDs, Yuu…”

Even so, back then, I truly believed we connected.
Not just in body, but in heart as well.

So I think yes, there is an indication that Yuu thinks she wants more than she expresses.

 

[story645]

if there's even a trace of ambiguity, I'm going to treat it in my favor".

The trace of ambiguity I was talking about was:
A) Yuu doesn't say who paid for the tickets in any translation
B) Yuu says Aya wanted to go to this movie
B) two translations indicate Aya paid and one indicates Yuu paid
therefore, it's reasonable for me to state that it's not conclusive that Yuu planned & paid for this date. Like I'm not even saying you're wrong, just that the text isn't so clear cut as to definitively prove that I'm wrong.

Which my argument here was that 3 translations line up w.r.t. to conveying a subjunctive mood and I'm not gonna argue on translator choice unless I think there's some sort of consensus. I'm gonna explain why I think the manga translation is in the subjunctive, but I also acknowledge that the very nature of the explanation is why you could read it as not being in the subjunctive.

I think the way "I'd" and "would" is used here indicates the hypothetical since it's paired w/ the condition "as long as you". I think if the translations were trying to convey that this was a description of the present state of their relationship, then it would be more appropriate to use "will":

• "as long as you invite me, there's now way I'll turn down an invitation"
• "as long as you're the one asking, I'll go anywhere"

https://www.thesaurus.com/articles/will-vs-would

ETA: also if it's not in the subjunctive & Yuu is doing the inviting in this chapter than Aya's actions here are contradicting Aya's thoughts there - here Aya retreats to "let's go to hotel/physical intimacy" rather than doing the action she's stating she'll do of embracing the activity that Yuu is inviting her to do. Which yeah sure I've argued that Aya's a self-contradictory mess, but somehow I don't think that's what you're intending to argue. If anything, I think this chapter supports why Yuu thinks Aya doesn't like dates, but that's what Aya is explicitly contradicting by saying "if you invite me".

If their "normal" date doesn't include that specific cliche, it doesn't count?

Not to Aya if this is what she's fixating on when mourning the relationship, rather than the kisses/cuddles/sex. It was a choice for Maruto/Yom to highlight an image of something they're never shown doing.

What kind of argument would convince you that she's not doing that "insecure thinking" thing?

Um definitely not 26.6, where you're gonna argue the opposite, so let's just short circuit that now: Basically she's asking herself "why does Yuu go along w/ this older girls whims?"/"why is he trying so hard to make me happy"

I'm gonna say that secure girls don't think like this (Hikari never questions why Yuu is nice to her), you're probably gonna say that she's just being appreciative. I'm gonna say that Aya flagging the "older girl" is her thinking he's nice to the persona, you're probably gonna reply "she is an older girl", back and forth we go.

Like I honestly just think this is intractable b/c we're reading this from such distinctly different perspectives. ETA: legit, I think Maruto plays with this with Yuu being blindsided by the break up while Aya'a friend predicted it.

which is almost the opposite of a young guy being in relationship just for sex.

So I should have been clearer here - I don't mean he's w/ her for sex in a "basically sex worker" way, but in a "this is an FWB/situationship" way. That he's w/ her cause she's convenient, not cause he's in love w/ her.

So I think yes, there is an indication that Yuu thinks she wants more than she expresses.

But not that she's joking. To keep going to "bind w/ body", Aya is aiming for "convenient" morphing into "connected". I'm just claiming that Yuu did a poor job of communicating back to Aya that her strategy worked.

Look here: he doesn't push back on Aya's final statement, which prompts Aya to ask to exchange IDs, which in a previous chapter Aya thought Yuu not asking for her ID was a sign of disinterest. She's the one here making the move to seal the deal (again).

 

[GennArc]

I think the way "I'd" and "would" is used here indicates the hypothetical since it's paired w/ the condition "as long as you". I think if the translations were trying to convey that this was a description of the present state of their relationship

It was hypothetical and it did describe the "present state" of their relationship - which is "she ghosted him and they basically broke up". That's why she uses "would".

ETA: also if it's not in the subjunctive & Yuu is doing the inviting in this chapter than Aya's actions here are contradicting Aya's thoughts there - here Aya retreats to "let's go to hotel/physical intimacy" rather than doing the action she's stating she'll do of embracing the activity that Yuu is inviting her to do

They are not contradicting her thoughts there. My point about chapter 30 always was that she is not being regretful about him not inviting her on dates or anything like that. All she was saying is that she'd never turn down an invitation from him - as long as it's with him, she wouldn't mind things she usually isn't fond of.
In this chapter she is with Yuu, the activity doesn't matter at all. You can say "she is turning down his invitation to go to the movie", but what she is doing is just choosing a different thing to do together with him (because movie would have her looking at the screen instead of looking at him). But it's not like she went home after he insisted on going to the movie, what mattered to her is that they are together.

It was a choice for Maruto/Yom to highlight an image of something they're never shown doing.

It was simply a reference to his invitation to the festival/fireworks.

Um definitely not 26.6

I'm asking what could convince you, not what wouldn't convince you. And I didn't intend to use that chapter as an argument anyway.

"this is an FWB/situationship" way. That he's w/ her cause she's convenient, not cause he's in love w/ her.

That's not much different. That again basically contradicts the "kind, good-hearted and honest" characteristic she is giving him.

Look here: he doesn't push back on Aya's final statement, which prompts Aya to ask to exchange IDs, which in a previous chapter Aya thought Yuu not asking for her ID was a sign of disinterest. She's the one here making the move to seal the deal (again).

Her asking to exchange IDs is the end of her "Why can't I do something so innocent?" arc from the previous chapter:

Because... because...
Wait, hang on.
Your... Yuu's contact info...

-snip-
"Hey, uh... Yuu!"
"Hm?"

Yuu, still half-asleep, doesn't even look at me properly. Ugh, so irritating.

"Hey, I mean... I mean-!"
"Yami-senpai?"

He wasn't even noticing how desperate I looked.

...Wait. Stop. Don't blame him for this, Ayami.
Why can't I just spit it out?

I know he'd give it to me, no problem.
There's no reason to hesitate, none at all.

So then why, why-?

Yesterday, it was so easy.
I dragged him into that hotel without a second thought.

"...Ugh."

Ah, seriously.

Something as simple, as innocent as this...
I just can't do it, can I?

It's not a response to his lack of rebuttal, it's her finally crossing that mental line and saying what she always wanted in order to connect with him.

 

[peortega1]

He never initiates the physical affection

This is precisely one of Yuu´s big points why Ayami fell in love with him. She wanted a submissive boyfriend who never would ask sex for her and also never would refuse a sex offer from her. Yuu fulfilled with both things.
And this fits very well with Ayami being a victim of an attempt of sexual abuse.
Anyway, the real reason why Yami uses the sex is the same reason why Shikimori and Kamiya used in that series: as a way to CONTROL and DOMINATE Yuu. The sex is her way to guarantee she is in top, she is in control, she is the man in the relationship and she has literally Yuu grabbed by the balls.
And yes, the most of the moments of Shikimori dominating (Yuu) Izumi are moments where she is making sexual/intimate hints or where she shows more physical strength than him.

He never praises Aya or explicitly tells her he loves her.

Again:

Ayami: "Study hard, play sports, dream big, fall in love..."
Yuu: "I already did that last one."
Ayami: "Oh? With who?"
Yuu: "You, obviously! Are you seriously asking me that now?"
Ayami: "...Pfft, hahaha!"

You confuses deliberately a shy and timid personality -and this is part of the chemistry between Yuu and Yami- with Ayami being insecure about his feelings for her.

I'm asking what could convince you, not what

I mean, she is still believing Yami didn´t like being the dominant member of the relationship, when precisely if there is one thing she loves it, is precisely being the dominatrix. Being the boyfriend of this relationship.
Again, with all this thing of female domination, it´s almost impossible understand Yami-Yuu relationship.
And again, Yuu chapter 4 left very clear he saw the red flags and tried to fight for the relationship. This is the reason why he sounds so insecure in the beach hotel in chapter 28 and why is so important Yami believed in that moment things were really solved.