Imasara desu ga, Osananajimi wo Suki ni Natte Shimaimashita - Ch. 38 - Happy End

[Litreara]

And? A lie is a lie. Just because she doesn't need to be aware doesn't make it any less scummy. There are plenty of ways to confess or get your feelings across, that doesn't involve a bold face lie.
Point of the matter is that she would have wound up finding out somehow, and he'd still have to answer to it.
He can date or do whatever he wants, just don't pretend to be who you're not lol.

You're preaching to the deaf. For some people here, no one owes Hikari anything. It seems that the definition of "friend" being used is simply "a person who is not hostile or an enemy" — rather than the usual "a person with whom one has developed a close and informal relationship of mutual trust and intimacy." The ten years of friendship between Hikari and Yuu mean nothing — and everything we've seen Hikari do for Yami means nothing either.

And since, to some, Hikari is just a girl too immature to deal with difficult issues that might hurt her, Yami and Yuu keeping her in the dark really was the best decision they could’ve made — even though she found out about a relationship between them in the worst possible way and ended up even more hurt. Yeah, it really was the best decision they made.

 

[story645]

And since, to some, Hikari is just a girl too immature to deal with difficult issues that might hurt her, Yami and Yuu keeping her in the dark really was the best decision they could’ve made —

Paternalism for the win :|

 

[GennArc]

You're preaching to the deaf. For some people here, no one owes Hikari anything. It seems that the definition of "friend" being used is simply "a person who is not hostile or an enemy" — rather than the usual "a person with whom one has developed a close and informal relationship of mutual trust and intimacy." The ten years of friendship between Hikari and Yuu mean nothing — and everything we've seen Hikari do for Yami means nothing either.

And since, to some, Hikari is just a girl too immature to deal with difficult issues that might hurt her, Yami and Yuu keeping her in the dark really was the best decision they could’ve made — even though she found out about a relationship between them in the worst possible way and ended up even more hurt. Yeah, it really was the best decision they made.

Well, some people also believe that being friends with a person means revealing your whole biography to them, including who you slept with and when, and never hiding anything from them, like when their mother complained about their bad habit to you, or when your mutual friend called them stupid 3 years ago.

 

[story645]

Well, some people also believe that being friends with a person means revealing your whole biography to them, including who you slept with and when, and never hiding anything from them, like when their mother complained about their bad habit to you, or when your mutual friend called them stupid 3 years ago.

General rule of thumb is that if you think that the information would effect/change your friendship than yeah it's unfair to your friend to not share it - you're not giving them the chance to choose how to process something that you know is important to them and choose whether they want to stay in the relationship given this information. It's essentially tricking them into staying friends with you if you think the information would kill the friendship.

 

[GennArc]

General rule of thumb is that if you think that the information would effect/change your friendship than yeah it's unfair to your friend to not share it - you're not giving them the chance to choose how to process something that you know is important to them and choose whether they want to stay in the relationship given this information. It's essentially tricking them into staying friends with you if you think the information would kill the friendship.

Let's say you absolutely despise their father who they love a lot. Or you read their private messages without them knowing during some falling out in the past without using that information in any way. Or you hold some political/religious views opposite from theirs which never come up in your conversations and are not really important but which you know they dislike.
Would you go and tell them?

 

[RedNanaki]

This series never recovered lmao

 

[story645]

Let's say you absolutely despise their father who they love a lot. Or you read their private messages without them knowing during some falling out in the past without using that information in any way. Or you hold some political/religious views opposite from theirs which never come up in your conversations and are not really important but which you know they dislike.
Would you go and tell them?

1. I'm struggling to think of a reason for despising their father that wouldn't create problems in the relationship - like if I don't want to be around them I either will end up resentful for having to be around them or will try to avoid them to my friend's bafflement and resentment. But when I've had variants of this convo - disliking someone that another person likes - it usually shakes out as the dislike is fair given my/their experience with the person. Basically I think the why is super important here.

2. Yes they should know I invaded their privacy - like I've told folks stuff like "oh yeah, I know that private thing about you cause x/y/z" even though I came across the information in a none privacy invading way. And yes sometimes it's been awkward but this scenario would 100% be lying to avoid getting yelled at for doing something objectively wrong.

3. I'm the type of religious where I couldn't hide it if I tried while also being politically liberal so yeah this is kinda my life w/ my more right wing friends & like yeah it's been fine anytime I tell 'em I'm holding different from them. My mom lost a friend group for being more liberal than them but she also says that the situation was becoming untenable anyway b/c any mutual respect had fallen away.

I think the only thing I wouldn't tell them are maybe things a third party asked me to keep private, but also then I'm gonna be encouraging the third party to tell 'em.

 

[GennArc]

1. I'm struggling to think of a reason for despising their father that wouldn't create problems in the relationship

Imagine you don't have to meet their father, he just exists somewhere and you despise him. The reason doesn't really matter, but let's say it makes sense for you and not really justified for your friend.

2. Yes they should know I invaded their privacy - like I've told folks stuff like "oh yeah, I know that private thing about you cause x/y/z" even though I came across the information in a none privacy invading way. And yes sometimes it's been awkward but this scenario would 100% be lying to avoid getting yelled at for doing something objectively wrong.

So you would go for a scenario that doesn't bring anyone any happiness whatsoever and sacrifice/risk sacrificing your friendship just for the principle?

3. I'm the type of religious where I couldn't hide it if I tried while also being politically liberal so yeah this is kinda my life w/ my more right wing friends

Let me strengthen the example: let's say you're strongly against capital punishment, while your friend's relative was murdered and he fervently supports capital punishment. Reverse the roles if you want, doesn't matter.

 

[story645]

So you would go for a scenario that doesn't bring anyone any happiness whatsoever and sacrifice/risk sacrificing your friendship just for the principle?

Yes I would take accountability for invading their privacy, which the act of invading their privacy is how I risked the friendship.

Imagine you don't have to meet their father, he just exists somewhere and you despise him. The reason doesn't really matter, but let's say it makes sense for you and not really justified for your friend.

Let me strengthen the example: let's say you're strongly against capital punishment, while your friend's relative was murdered and he fervently supports capital punishment. Reverse the roles if you want, doesn't matter.

I think these are the same class of examples, which is that I may have fundamentally different values from my friend. If I'm seeing something in their dad that they're not, what is it I'm seeing that I despise and that they don't see as a problem? Your capital punishment example has the flaw of a lot of context, which is the type of thing you only get by having a conversation - and having that conversation, I can also talk to my friend about my views while acknowledging where they're coming from (which is how these conversations usually go for me). If my views or their views on topic X matter so much as to be a deal breaker than we're probably fundamentally incompatible anyway, and if we are compatible then having this conversation actually just makes the friendship stronger cause we've hashed out that we can accept this difference in viewpoint/values.

 

[Mrson]

Yes I would take accountability for invading their privacy, which the act of invading their privacy is how I risked the friendship.




I think these are the same class of examples, which is that I may have fundamentally different values from my friend. If I'm seeing something in their dad that they're not, what is it I'm seeing that I despise and that they don't see as a problem? Your capital punishment example has the flaw of a lot of context, which is the type of thing you only get by having a conversation - and having that conversation, I can also talk to my friend about my views while acknowledging where they're coming from (which is how these conversations usually go for me). If my views or their views on topic X matter so much as to be a deal breaker than we're probably fundamentally incompatible anyway, and if we are compatible then having this conversation actually just makes the friendship stronger cause we've hashed out that we can accept this difference in viewpoint/values.

bro wtf? I should know that many people want the truth but in reality they rarely really want it, the only ones who want the absolute truth are scientists, but even so in a field that has human interaction it will have some errors, because of humans, science does not lie, now I want you to see things in terms of telling the truth regardless of the consequences, believe me the world does not work the way you think it does, I don't know how old you are but believe me the world without lies would be hard, harsh. That's why when someone tells me they don't like lies and want the absolute truth, the only thing I think is that they are locked in their bubble and have a lot to learn.

 

[story645]

That's why when someone tells me they don't like lies and want the absolute truth, the only thing I think is that they are locked in their bubble and have a lot to learn.

I feel like I should be very clear that at no point did I say that the truth wouldn't hurt. It sometimes hurts like hell and irrevocably breaks a relationship (been on both sides of this), but a relationship broken by the truth usually isn't in the best shape to begin with. And yes I've occasionally lied b/c I didn't want to deal w/ the fall out of the truth or to save my own skin, but I'm not pretending I did the morally correct thing.

But also I've also been blindsided too many times because someone was "trying to protect me" to think that's ever a good idea. Which literally the climax of this manga that we've all been discussing to death is that hiding the truth often just doesn't work.

ETA: A quick google of "difficult conversations" reminded me of probably the most important bit, which is that (unless you're a legit psychic) you don't actually know how someone else will react to the truth. Getting back to this manga, neither Yuu nor the reader actually knows how Hikari will respond to the full story until she's told it. In the mean time, it's pages of debate and projection and guessing - and hiding the truth in real life works about the same but it's your brain spinning up the 20 pages of "how will they react to this?"

 

[Beezy]

I really am baffled how people in this thread cannot understand why Yuu wouldnt tell Hikari about his ex. If you had a crush on someone who you believed was out of your league for years, you just gonna tell em "hey so there is this girl I used to date goes to your school and we had a long fling and she ended up ghosting me for no reason a little over a year ago." Yea that is gonna completely go over so well in conversation. Lol
He has no obligation to tell her about it. Should he been more honest at this moment? yea but i get no saying anything to make things more awkward. Yall out here calling him trash and scum for something like this is wild to me. My hope there is just some proper communication between these 3 so that they can all make the proper decision on what to do with their life.

 

[story645]

He has no obligation to tell her about it. Should he been more honest at this moment? yea

Why should he have been honest if he has no obligation to tell her?

I think the lying was both understandable and wrong and am mostly baffled at how that seems to be a controversial take.

 

[fflogschampion]

I really am baffled how people in this thread cannot understand why Yuu wouldnt tell Hikari about his ex. If you had a crush on someone who you believed was out of your league for years, you just gonna tell em "hey so there is this girl I used to date goes to your school and we had a long fling and she ended up ghosting me for no reason a little over a year ago." Yea that is gonna completely go over so well in conversation. Lol
He has no obligation to tell her about it. Should he been more honest at this moment? yea but i get no saying anything to make things more awkward. Yall out here calling him trash and scum for something like this is wild to me. My hope there is just some proper communication between these 3 so that they can all make the proper decision on what to do with their life.

Just because you can explain someone's actions it doesn't mean they're excused from the consequences of said actions.

Stop assuming people aren't aware of why he would do it, they just don't care.

 

[story645]

Stop assuming people aren't aware of why he would do it, they just don't care.

Or like I'd care if this was a real person explaining to me why they lied to me, but that factors into how I handle their lie & doesn't magically make it OK.

Which like honestly my question for the "Yuu did nothing wrong" crowd is that do you then also think that your friends & partners have no obligation to tell you about stuff that you'd definitely care about, enough to potentially end the relationship over?

 

[GennArc]

Yes I would take accountability for invading their privacy, which the act of invading their privacy is how I risked the friendship.

I can respect this. However, just from my point of view, this sounds like caring more about self-righteousness than about the friendship itself. Worst case scenario, your friend and you both lose a friend. Best case scenario? Nothing happens.
Not pretending to be correct or anything, of course.

If my views or their views on topic X matter so much as to be a deal breaker than we're probably fundamentally incompatible anyway

Let's say for them it's very important, for you - not that crucial, but you're not changing your opinion on the matter just because of that. Would that still lead to a confrontation even though you can simply avoid mentioning the sensitive topic and continue to be friends?

And sorry for straying away from the chapter discussion.

 

[wozbond]

General rule of thumb is that if you think that the information would effect/change your friendship than yeah it's unfair to your friend to not share it - you're not giving them the chance to choose how to process something that you know is important to them and choose whether they want to stay in the relationship given this information. It's essentially tricking them into staying friends with you if you think the information would kill the friendship.

So when Hikari went from friend zoning Yuu for years to having romantic feelings for him, your position is that Hikari was unfair for not sharing that, right? And for the record, 'attempting' to share it is NOT actually sharing it. Just like attempting to confess is NOT actually confessing.

 

[story645]

I can respect this. However, just from my point of view, this sounds like caring more about self-righteousness than about the friendship itself. Worst case scenario, your friend and you both lose a friend. Best case scenario? Nothing happens.

If my friend is dumping me for invading their privacy than they think invading their privacy is friendship ending, which means I had already nuked the friendship by invading their privacy. At this point I'm just making sure my friend is giving informed consent to our friendship. To me "protecting the friendship" sounds like a self-righteous justification for not having to face the consequences of my mistake.
But also something already happened - the initial violation of the friends privacy that you're banking on never coming out. That there's no chance you'll ever use that information in a fight or casually let slip w/o thinking. Which right, the alternative to not telling the friend is that you have to be on your guard about this information, which maybe you see as punishment enough but generally that sorta stuff leaks.

It has in the manga - Hikari has flagged Yuu's evasiveness a bit in the past & this is her "I'm done" moment.

Let's say for them it's very important, for you - not that crucial, but you're not changing your opinion on the matter just because of that. Would that still lead to a confrontation even though you can simply avoid mentioning the sensitive topic and continue to be friends?

So I'll concede that there's nuance here but I think it primarily depends on who I'm talking to. My best friend yes b/c the trust is there to discuss these things, friend who I maybe see twice a year yeah I'll answer honestly but maybe not proactively raise the topic.

Which right, that's a core issue in the manga - Aya trusts her friends enough to tell them all about her ex, but Hikari would see it as Yuu not trusting her enough to tell her about his. Since Hikari has always thought that their friendship is super open and honest, this changes what she thinks about the very nature of their relationship. Which going back to the Q is why yes I have these convos with my best friend.

So when Hikari went from friend zoning Yuu for years to having romantic feelings for him, your position is that Hikari was unfair for not sharing that, right?

Sure, why not, if you think the not confessing is equivalent have at it.

On top of that though, Yuu has also been hiding Aya, is worried about something going down at the festival but doesn't give Hikari a heads up, and then lies about why he went missing, probably b/c he's scared of Hikari's reaction to the info given he's in love with her. So he's also a liar and coward for trying to deflect Hikari's anger/frustration by confessing.

 

[GennArc]

To me "protecting the friendship" sounds like a self-righteous justification for not having to face the consequences of my mistake.

Does it though? If facing the consequences could help the friend in any way, I'd agree, but in this case it doesn't really bring them any good from any perspective.
On a side note, to me it's kinda like that Ghost of Tsushima conflict, you know, charging the enemy upfront without any shady stuff vs. poisoning their food. Obeying the honor code vs. saving your people's lives.

but Hikari would see it as Yuu not trusting her enough to tell her about his.

I mean, I have no objections, especially since Yuu confessed. In this case he most definitely should've told her first, even though I really understand very well why he didn't. I'm just questioning the whole "friendship and trust = sharing everything" stuff.

 

[Beezy]

Why should he have been honest if he has no obligation to tell her?

I think the lying was both understandable and wrong and am mostly baffled at how that seems to be a controversial take.

its completely up to him whether or not she should know about his past relationship. If he doesnt feel comfortable speaking on it, that is his prerogative. If he decides its time to be completely honest with her about everything, then he should be an open book about it. Clearly, he was still not totally comfortable speaking about it.