Isekai Kenkokuki - Ch. 65

[thycondrius]

So at this pace when should we expect the inquisition?

noone expects the inquisition

 

[AnotherDuck]

Depends on whether he weighs the same as a duck.

Are we talking men, ladies, or ladies who dress like ducks?

noone expects the inquisition

Um, ackchually, people did expect it because it was announced.

 

[hanfeizi]

Are we talking men, ladies, or ladies who dress like ducks?


Um, ackchually, people did expect it because it was announced.

No, people didn't expect it because their chief weapon is surprise. Umm... Surprise and fear. Fear and surprise.

Their two weapons are fear and surprise and ruthless efficiency.

Their three weapons are fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.

Their four... no... Amongst their weapons... Amongst their weaponry are such elements as fear, surprise....

 

[AnotherDuck]

their chief weapon
Their two weapons
Their three weapons
Their four... no... Amongst their weapons...

Never give those people a holy hand grenade.

 

[besbin]

The problem with placing a new capital like that on the map is that if it's such a great location for it, there would already be a city there.

Many big and important cities need such a big start up cost and political reconfiguration that the original inhabitants didn't have. That was why many of them linger around as small sleepy town or village until a big political entity showed up to shop for a new capital. In this case, the cost of building a whole network of water control and multiple highways to connect the growing kingdom would be way outside the possibilities of any previous kingdoms and settlers.

 

[Liquidxlax]

And then centuries later after another disastrous flooding of the capital costing countless lives, the people ponder "why on earth did we build our capital amongst three flooding rivers?"

I would assume they are going to apply "basic" civil engineering principles of waterways. Like diversions, weirs, dikes, gates and the like.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Many big and important cities need such a big start up cost and political reconfiguration that the original inhabitants didn't have. That was why many of them linger around as small sleepy town or village until a big political entity showed up to shop for a new capital. In this case, the cost of building a whole network of water control and multiple highways to connect the growing kingdom would be way outside the possibilities of any previous kingdoms and settlers.

Most cities aren't constructed from scratch or small villages. They grow naturally over time. If there's a location that has a lot of advantages, there would be people gathering there, with or without that massive amount of money.

In this case they're talking about a place with plenty of water, which is a necessity for any city to grow, and there are flood plains, which can provide an abundant amount of food. Just those two would mean people would move there, as that's the basis for any population growth. And since the location also seems to be rather central with good waterway communications, it would very likely grow up to be a trading hub.

All that water control and highways are for high-efficient management, but they're not necessary for a naturally growing town.

The point is, the location they discussed had way too many advantages for there to not be a town already.

 

[ForTheJerusalem]

A bad story would have characters believe that the world is flat(why do those people even exist), despite the fact that greeks even managed to somewhat accurately tell how big earth is.

 

[jonsmth]

The argument about the size of the capital doesn't make much sense. The size of a city is not static. If more people need or want to live there, it will expand.

The problem with placing a new capital like that on the map is that if it's such a great location for it, there would already be a city there.

The city can only be as large as its walls. People will want to be within the protection of the walls, especially it being a city near the border.

It's only a great location if you're only looking at it in a map. Settlers would have found it uninhabitable due to the flooding. As we have seen in this chapter, it would take a number of specialists, the labor force of multiple clans, and the resources of a nation to settle there.

 

[Elhao]

Two strikes for Ismea this chapter.
"W-what did you just call me?" A woman, which is way less rude and more factually accurate than what you called him (not considering possible implications that got lost in translation).
Also: "How many times should I tell you there's something wrong with the math there!" How many times have you told him? Moments earlier you said you didn't know him and had only heard rumors.

 

[AnotherDuck]

The city can only be as large as its walls. People will want to be within the protection of the walls, especially it being a city near the border.

Not a problem. If they can build a city, they can expand the walls. And that's only if you assume the argument holds up in the first place, since it requires there to not be any settlements without walls, or outside the city walls, which I find unlikely.

It's only a great location if you're only looking at it in a map. Settlers would have found it uninhabitable due to the flooding. As we have seen in this chapter, it would take a number of specialists, the labor force of multiple clans, and the resources of a nation to settle there.

As been mentioned several times in the thread, flooding isn't that much of a problem for settlers. It's in fact a great advantage. They said it was regular flooding every year, which is reliable and very useful for farming.

The problem is that the author doesn't quite know how old societies worked, and makes things up that don't make sense if you understand more than a surface level of history. That has been shown many times before. Controlling flooding doesn't require advanced techniques. It can be done on a primitive tribal level. All you need is manpower and a bit of know-how.

 

[Ironclad]

Raymond is his adoptive father, not his father-in-law.

 

[Ironclad]

And then centuries later after another disastrous flooding of the capital costing countless lives, the people ponder "why on earth did we build our capital amongst three flooding rivers?"

That's what dams are for. The value for transportation and shipping is massive. It's so important it's bizarre the capital isn't already there.

 

[theShear]

The problem is that the author doesn't quite know how old societies worked, and makes things up that don't make sense if you understand more than a surface level of history. That has been shown many times before. Controlling flooding doesn't require advanced techniques. It can be done on a primitive tribal level. All you need is manpower and a bit of know-how.

I think he actually considered that. He isn't creating new tech here but instead is telling his architects to build one. Going by dialog they also aren't surprised but are mostly worried that the scale needs proper calculation so this isn't new technology either.
I do agree though. Usually the cities that get big in the old ages where often by rivers so a proper civilisation would have a city or two at least or at the minimum a large Village there. Probably with old traditions to deal with flooding. Such a spot is far too valuable for trade to just ignore.

 

[Screenwatch]

I think the river not already having a village or something in it might have to do with the kingdom not being centralized. The river could have been a border of 2 territories and thus neither side would have let anyone move there. Someone question the capital size is able to change but having a holy forest on one side and an aggressive country to the north does hinder the ability to expand the capital. The location isn’t well suited for expanding.

I do like the ending where the guy is introduced as this craze guy that believes that we’re orbiting the sun rather than the earth and the mc is just like, yea, sure, but how’s your water canal making skills?

 

[jonsmth]

Not a problem. If they can build a city, they can expand the walls. And that's only if you assume the argument holds up in the first place, since it requires there to not be any settlements without walls, or outside the city walls, which I find unlikely.


As been mentioned several times in the thread, flooding isn't that much of a problem for settlers. It's in fact a great advantage. They said it was regular flooding every year, which is reliable and very useful for farming.

The problem is that the author doesn't quite know how old societies worked, and makes things up that don't make sense if you understand more than a surface level of history. That has been shown many times before. Controlling flooding doesn't require advanced techniques. It can be done on a primitive tribal level. All you need is manpower and a bit of know-how.

If they're gonna build walls, they might as well build a city. The existence of settlements without walls is irrelevant. They want more people in the capital and the capital is a walled city. Natural growth will lead to higher density rather than horizontal expansion. Only way someone will settle outside the walls is if they were refugees who tend to be not welcome. Remember, the people they want to relocate are valuable craftsmen and bureaucrats/nobles. They can't just settle outside the walls nor could the current residents accept being relocated outside the walls.

It's so much more work to make a floodplain livable. It doesn't matter if it's possible with ancient technology. Things will tend to go in the path of least resistance. Like why bother with basins and diversions when you could just start building your house straight away? The strategic advantage is not immediately visible nor significant to a wandering settler. They might try to settle there until the floods will force them to abandon it.

Actually in the modern era, the common person wouldn't really do anything about the knowledge of a flood plain and would just build as long as they're allowed. It takes the initiative of the state or the city to do anything about it. Ancient Egypt needed central planning and oversight to make effective use of the Nile for farming.

 

[WhimsiCat]

That's what dams are for. The value for transportation and shipping is massive. It's so important it's bizarre the capital isn't already there.

Because previously the map was different? His new location is with the old Rosice + Dibel + Ash territory combined as the new kingdom.

 

[AnotherDuck]

He isn't creating new tech here but instead is telling his architects to build one.

They mentioned specialists, so it's not new in that sense (and what I mentioned was "advanced" technology, not new), but it's knowledge that isn't common amount the population.

The river could have been a border of 2 territories and thus neither side would have let anyone move there.

Probably a more reasonable argument than others. It does seem unlikely that the power balance would remain that equal for there to never develop a settlement there, but it could happen.

I do like the ending where the guy is introduced as this craze guy that believes that we’re orbiting the sun rather than the earth and the mc is just like, yea, sure, but how’s your water canal making skills?

Focusing on what matters. It's easy to get bogged down in details. They're fun, but not for moving forward, most of the time.

If they're gonna build walls, they might as well build a city.

Not even remotely in the same cost range, so that argument doesn't make sense, and it means the other arguments are irrelevant. It's as if no walled city has ever grown beyond its walls.

It's so much more work to make a floodplain livable.

So why is it that floodplains have historically been where large population centres have gathered? That's the entire point: Those areas would already be populated in any realistic setting.

Ancient Egypt needed central planning and oversight to make effective use of the Nile for farming.

And how do you think they started? By building complete capital cities with everything necessary to control a whole country? Or by starting small and naturally expanding from there? Those two are not comparable. The first is what the manga is proposing, and the second is how reality tend to work.

 

[jonsmth]

Not even remotely in the same cost range, so that argument doesn't make sense, and it means the other arguments are irrelevant. It's as if no walled city has ever grown beyond its walls.

Expanding is not free. At that point, they may as well build a new city elsewhere considering the strategic positioning, and that they don't have to maintain the existing deteriorating walls. We aren't talking about any random walled city; examples of other walled cities are irrelevant. Did you actually want to talk about walled cities in general? If we're not on the same page, then anything we say to each other would be irrelevant.

 

[AnotherDuck]

Expanding is not free.

The counterargument for that is, "moving a capital is not free."

Now, if you want to talk about spending that huge amount of money on top of everything involved in expanding, that's a different idea. I've never said there aren't benefits to moving the capital, but the several of the downsides for keeping it there don't make sense.

Repairing walls has to happen regardless, since it's still a major city close to the border, and probably will be a focal point during a war. That's not a cost saved by moving the capital. You can't just abandon a city because you move the government. Though I wonder how much that cost is exaggerated for the sake of argument in the manga, considering how well these kinds of walls hold up.

If you want to dismiss all examples of others walled cities and claim this city is completely difference from everything else, you have to prove why this particular city is different from all other cities, and why those differences matter. You've not done so.