Jishou Akuyaku Reijou na Konyakusha no Kansatsu Kiroku - Vol. 3 Ch. 12
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@Ibri That is a horrible thing to say. You don't know what their status is, plenty of them can be in couples out of love. Bertia's group is an example of that. It doesn't look like the culture of the world has a problem with aristocrats choosing their own relationships, it just seems like the norm is for their family to choose.
@Psychronia it seems like the 'Heroine' is massively deviating from the script now, at least the parts we see and here about. In the game there was no need for her to falsely accuse Bertia or entrap her, because the guys weren't on lock down yet, so she got them on her side, and Bertia tried to get the prince back and it backfired.
@Psychronia it seems like the 'Heroine' is massively deviating from the script now, at least the parts we see and here about. In the game there was no need for her to falsely accuse Bertia or entrap her, because the guys weren't on lock down yet, so she got them on her side, and Bertia tried to get the prince back and it backfired.
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@WillLi
What @Ibri said may come as horrible but it is not innacurate.
At this point Heronia is too focused on it being a game and doesnçt realize that she is not the heroine anymore, with how she can't act in a natural way in the "events" and all, she should have changed tactics way sooner and used information of the game to make her own events...
@Psychronia
It seems a pretty normal otome game, it is not that the heroine has no capacity to do anything but that the original heroine was actually bullied and was actually pure and innocent since that does seen to be a fantasy most females have. The game likely has some actions the heroine takes like horse riding, baking or singing which are the reasons the targets get attracted to her in the game.
What @Ibri said may come as horrible but it is not innacurate.
At this point Heronia is too focused on it being a game and doesnçt realize that she is not the heroine anymore, with how she can't act in a natural way in the "events" and all, she should have changed tactics way sooner and used information of the game to make her own events...
@Psychronia
It seems a pretty normal otome game, it is not that the heroine has no capacity to do anything but that the original heroine was actually bullied and was actually pure and innocent since that does seen to be a fantasy most females have. The game likely has some actions the heroine takes like horse riding, baking or singing which are the reasons the targets get attracted to her in the game.
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@Mangareader
Unless doing it was not the objective, the magic that causes the "charm" also has the effect of invigorate and strenght the target and as such the original heroine could have been doing it thinking she was helping instead of "brainwashing" the targets.
Unless doing it was not the objective, the magic that causes the "charm" also has the effect of invigorate and strenght the target and as such the original heroine could have been doing it thinking she was helping instead of "brainwashing" the targets.
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Stop! Don't jump to conclusions, o Crown Prince!
I could imagine this guy being trigger happy over something like this.
I could imagine this guy being trigger happy over something like this.
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@Psychronia its probably a shitty otome. Remember that the prince is practically perfect.
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@WillLi
Well, yes I was also talking about that. Like was said it is not really a moral problem because it can be considered that they are just paired together instead of in a relationship, since it was decided by the family and has always the posibility of being annuled for some reason like the situation with Cecil and Joana (she being a candidate and later focusing on Shawn when things didn't go well with Cecil) or Charles and Anne (with Anne suposed to be Charles' brother fiancee but the situation ending like it did).
As I said, the way it was put could pass as "horrible" but it was not innacurate.
Well, yes I was also talking about that. Like was said it is not really a moral problem because it can be considered that they are just paired together instead of in a relationship, since it was decided by the family and has always the posibility of being annuled for some reason like the situation with Cecil and Joana (she being a candidate and later focusing on Shawn when things didn't go well with Cecil) or Charles and Anne (with Anne suposed to be Charles' brother fiancee but the situation ending like it did).
As I said, the way it was put could pass as "horrible" but it was not innacurate.
@mahtan and what I'm saying is, that based on what Bertia did pairing the others up, and none of their families refusing, even though they changed some relationships that -were- pre-paired. Assuming that these relationships are all arranged and not out of love is just ignorant. Yes there is a chance they are arranged, but there is cause to believe that some of them might not be, or were arranged but still have love involved. Especially since there are lower level aristocrats in the school too.
In short, because Bertia did change arranged relationships, but no one flipped out about it, that shows that arranged relationships aren't as 'set in stone' as they used to be in our world, and if the child wants to marry someone else, as long as they're adequate status, it still might be allowed, so there is a reasonable chance there are love relationships that "Heroine" is breaking, and not just political ones. It's possible they were all political, but assuming that is not 'accurate' it's just justifying "Heroine".
In short, because Bertia did change arranged relationships, but no one flipped out about it, that shows that arranged relationships aren't as 'set in stone' as they used to be in our world, and if the child wants to marry someone else, as long as they're adequate status, it still might be allowed, so there is a reasonable chance there are love relationships that "Heroine" is breaking, and not just political ones. It's possible they were all political, but assuming that is not 'accurate' it's just justifying "Heroine".
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@WillLi
Yes, which is why what Heronia is doing is not morally wrong and that was the whole point of the discussion.
If the families are OK with changes in the pre-made political coupling because of love then someone else butting heads to try and make someone that is already in that situation fall for them is not morally wrong.
In this case you are being biased because we are privy to information that we would not have otherwise, that being that they are indeed in love with each other, be it from the start or from getting used to be togheter, and Heronia is not doing it because she loves then or because she wants a better social standing. Yet even that doesn't exclude the possibility of they falling out of love for their current pairing and starting to love another, which again makes Heronia's actions not morally wrong. Objectively speaking, off course, since subjectively one can say it is morally wrong because she is trying to deny some other the one they love but that is another can of worms and I don't think it matters for the topic at hand, that being wheter or not what @Ibri said was acurate, as in being correct for the situation, or not.
Yes, which is why what Heronia is doing is not morally wrong and that was the whole point of the discussion.
If the families are OK with changes in the pre-made political coupling because of love then someone else butting heads to try and make someone that is already in that situation fall for them is not morally wrong.
In this case you are being biased because we are privy to information that we would not have otherwise, that being that they are indeed in love with each other, be it from the start or from getting used to be togheter, and Heronia is not doing it because she loves then or because she wants a better social standing. Yet even that doesn't exclude the possibility of they falling out of love for their current pairing and starting to love another, which again makes Heronia's actions not morally wrong. Objectively speaking, off course, since subjectively one can say it is morally wrong because she is trying to deny some other the one they love but that is another can of worms and I don't think it matters for the topic at hand, that being wheter or not what @Ibri said was acurate, as in being correct for the situation, or not.
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@Darkion
You don't consume much media directed to women, do you?
The male protagonist in those stories are aways "perfect", beautifull and charming. Those are made as "female wish fufillment" and most females, by that I mean the majority of females, are attracted to these type of guys in these type of scenarios in which they are nothing especial but yet the most attractive and especial males fall in love with them for some reason. Exemples of that trope that are recent would be: Twilight, Divergent, Fifity Shades of Grey and Star Wars episode 7, all movies/books in which some girl that no one cared about end up being the most attractive girl with all the special BS and everyone likes her for no reason, they are usually Mary Sues too.
You don't consume much media directed to women, do you?
The male protagonist in those stories are aways "perfect", beautifull and charming. Those are made as "female wish fufillment" and most females, by that I mean the majority of females, are attracted to these type of guys in these type of scenarios in which they are nothing especial but yet the most attractive and especial males fall in love with them for some reason. Exemples of that trope that are recent would be: Twilight, Divergent, Fifity Shades of Grey and Star Wars episode 7, all movies/books in which some girl that no one cared about end up being the most attractive girl with all the special BS and everyone likes her for no reason, they are usually Mary Sues too.
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@Lynkaster
True rival? You mean their son? lol
But he stopped after his sister was born though.
But he stopped after his sister was born though.
@mahtan brainwashing people -out- of potentially loving relationships -is- morally wrong. Are you forgetting that part? All of this comes about through brain washing. Also even if it wasn't brainwashing, -trying- to steal someone from someone they love is morally wrong too. You're saying it's okay because normally we wouldn't know about it. But that is like saying "A crime is okay as long as no one knows about it." The information being 'secret' doesn't change morality of an action, because morality of an action is based on intention. The information being secret only makes it harder to see the truth. And again, they didn't fall out of love, they're being brainwashed, and I'm pretty sure the girl is -aware- she is brainwashing people. And even if she doesn't know about the magic, we know that she is -intentionally- manipulating people to side with her. So either way you look at it, she is playing people on purpose. How is that not morally wrong?
What kind of world do you live in where just because people don't know someone is secretly a horrible person, does it make them not a horrible person? Are you that naive to think that she is 'good' just because the world around her can't prove it? This is going to be my last response to you, because there is no way to convince you of the truth if you think that morality changes based on if their intentions are secret to the public. That's just awful. And if it's not that, you are opaque to the fat that this girl is intentionally manipulating people, whether she knows about the magic or not, your own logic is not that far from her own, and that is a dangerous, and disgusting line of thought that disregards the will and feeling for other people.
Edit I have reread the different post, and come to the notion that you might be talking about her actions following the original game and charming the original hero cast. However that is even worse, because in the original game, the men came to her, in which case that would be fine. But that is not what "Heroine" is doing or experiencing now. Based on her knowledge of the game she should know that all the men are with the women that they loved (because of back story info, Bertia knew it so she should) but also she is -aware- they to not like her and is doing things as bold as trying to tell their finance's that they are not suitable and to leave the guys alone. How is that -not- morally wrong? At the very -least- she is ignoring the feelings of everyone and treating them like preprogrammed robots.
What kind of world do you live in where just because people don't know someone is secretly a horrible person, does it make them not a horrible person? Are you that naive to think that she is 'good' just because the world around her can't prove it? This is going to be my last response to you, because there is no way to convince you of the truth if you think that morality changes based on if their intentions are secret to the public. That's just awful. And if it's not that, you are opaque to the fat that this girl is intentionally manipulating people, whether she knows about the magic or not, your own logic is not that far from her own, and that is a dangerous, and disgusting line of thought that disregards the will and feeling for other people.
Edit I have reread the different post, and come to the notion that you might be talking about her actions following the original game and charming the original hero cast. However that is even worse, because in the original game, the men came to her, in which case that would be fine. But that is not what "Heroine" is doing or experiencing now. Based on her knowledge of the game she should know that all the men are with the women that they loved (because of back story info, Bertia knew it so she should) but also she is -aware- they to not like her and is doing things as bold as trying to tell their finance's that they are not suitable and to leave the guys alone. How is that -not- morally wrong? At the very -least- she is ignoring the feelings of everyone and treating them like preprogrammed robots.
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@WillLi
Ok you are being biased again because you privy to information they don't have. Heronia actions are wrong? The ones done by isekaie'd Heronia are the ones from the game Mc maybe not. The thing one has to remember before judging someone is that we know they are in love but for the people in the story they are just arranged marriages, they act like they like one another but that is not a given as there are evidence of people anulling their marriage contract to end up with someone else. That being that Heronia in the game would use her magic that invigorates the target could be just a inocent use and the brainwashing was not intended or it could be and I would argue it would still not make a diference since it is no diferent from seducing the person. So your agument for it being morally wrong is based on your subjective biew of the situation not on objective facts.
"What kind of world do you live", the real world. If someone is a murder, sadist, that likes to eat babies but most of the time they are the nicest, most wholesome person in the world then everyone that doesn't have the information of it's missdeeds will think the sky of that person. Does it changes that the person is a monster? Yes and no. Yes because that is just a subjective view of the people and that view is all that matters when deciding who is terrible or not. No because it doesn't change what the person did. An exemple more realistic is the females that falsely acuse people of sexual abuse, to the public eye they are victims and even when they are proven liers the public still stays on their side. They are terrible people but they are not terrible people because the public perception of them is of "victims".
Talking about the isekai'd Heronia's actions now: They are not morally wrong because they are not done with the intent to harm as she believes it is her right to have it and don't see the consequences of what she is doing, since they are suposed to be in love with her anyway doesn't matter anything else. It is the case of a mentally ill person doing something wrong, you can't really judge them the same as a normal person because they are unable to have the perspective a normal person would have, which is the same case for Bertia BTW, with her insistence on have Cecil end up with Heronia she demonstrate that she also doesn't see what is happening as beign something separated from the game and the diference between the two is that while Heronia has a god complex that the world was made for her Bertia has a inferiority complex and tries to avoid any "death flag" that may come to her role in the story, which in turn ended up inverting their roles and having Bertia as the heroine and Heronia as the villain. Even without that, let's say Heronia is just a normal noble girl from that world it would still be understanble to use whatever capacity she has to attain a better life style on a higher social position, conforming to mediocrity is not moral in itself and while using mind control could be seen as morally wrong the "charm" magic, as it is being called, is little diferent from how seduction works IRL.
Ok you are being biased again because you privy to information they don't have. Heronia actions are wrong? The ones done by isekaie'd Heronia are the ones from the game Mc maybe not. The thing one has to remember before judging someone is that we know they are in love but for the people in the story they are just arranged marriages, they act like they like one another but that is not a given as there are evidence of people anulling their marriage contract to end up with someone else. That being that Heronia in the game would use her magic that invigorates the target could be just a inocent use and the brainwashing was not intended or it could be and I would argue it would still not make a diference since it is no diferent from seducing the person. So your agument for it being morally wrong is based on your subjective biew of the situation not on objective facts.
"What kind of world do you live", the real world. If someone is a murder, sadist, that likes to eat babies but most of the time they are the nicest, most wholesome person in the world then everyone that doesn't have the information of it's missdeeds will think the sky of that person. Does it changes that the person is a monster? Yes and no. Yes because that is just a subjective view of the people and that view is all that matters when deciding who is terrible or not. No because it doesn't change what the person did. An exemple more realistic is the females that falsely acuse people of sexual abuse, to the public eye they are victims and even when they are proven liers the public still stays on their side. They are terrible people but they are not terrible people because the public perception of them is of "victims".
Talking about the isekai'd Heronia's actions now: They are not morally wrong because they are not done with the intent to harm as she believes it is her right to have it and don't see the consequences of what she is doing, since they are suposed to be in love with her anyway doesn't matter anything else. It is the case of a mentally ill person doing something wrong, you can't really judge them the same as a normal person because they are unable to have the perspective a normal person would have, which is the same case for Bertia BTW, with her insistence on have Cecil end up with Heronia she demonstrate that she also doesn't see what is happening as beign something separated from the game and the diference between the two is that while Heronia has a god complex that the world was made for her Bertia has a inferiority complex and tries to avoid any "death flag" that may come to her role in the story, which in turn ended up inverting their roles and having Bertia as the heroine and Heronia as the villain. Even without that, let's say Heronia is just a normal noble girl from that world it would still be understanble to use whatever capacity she has to attain a better life style on a higher social position, conforming to mediocrity is not moral in itself and while using mind control could be seen as morally wrong the "charm" magic, as it is being called, is little diferent from how seduction works IRL.
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@Ibri @mahtan @WillLi
There are three parts to the matter of stealing fiances that I want to go through.
Firstly, does the fact that you don't think you're doing something amoral make it any less so? A couple could be a pair either by love or politics, but presuming that there's no love doesn't automatically make it okay. For example, if there's a box with a 50% chance of having a baby animal inside, then kicking the box despite knowing that makes you a terrible person no matter if the animal is actually there. Heronia is still deliberately doing something that she knows could potentially cause other people pain, but she doesn't care because gamers interacting with perceived NPCs are sociopaths that way.
Second, I was under the impression from the Charles-Anne scenes that breaking political marriages are still considered a pretty big deal in the culture. Charles prioritized politics over love and his brother was clearly framed as immoral for constantly cheating.
And lastly, this feels like a bit of a false premise to me, because why would the fact that it's a political engagement make breaking it okay?
People get married for all sorts of reasons, and "stealing" people away from each other-with brainwashing magic equivalent to drugs no less-would mark you as a horrible person no matter the circumstance in my book. The families end up with a lot of problems to deal with, you're effectively depriving someone of a secure financial or political future, and Heronia isn't even doing it out of love so much as just wanting a reverse-harem. Let's reduce this to the coldest, most emotionless interpretation of an engagement and look at them as business transactions. Stealing someone from their engagement is akin to robbing their partner of resources and dignity, which our heroine is just sorta doing for the hell of it.
Heck, since any boys that fall for Heronia aren't conquest targets in the game, chances are that they'll be thrown away after graduation, but this part is my speculation.
There are three parts to the matter of stealing fiances that I want to go through.
Firstly, does the fact that you don't think you're doing something amoral make it any less so? A couple could be a pair either by love or politics, but presuming that there's no love doesn't automatically make it okay. For example, if there's a box with a 50% chance of having a baby animal inside, then kicking the box despite knowing that makes you a terrible person no matter if the animal is actually there. Heronia is still deliberately doing something that she knows could potentially cause other people pain, but she doesn't care because gamers interacting with perceived NPCs are sociopaths that way.
Second, I was under the impression from the Charles-Anne scenes that breaking political marriages are still considered a pretty big deal in the culture. Charles prioritized politics over love and his brother was clearly framed as immoral for constantly cheating.
And lastly, this feels like a bit of a false premise to me, because why would the fact that it's a political engagement make breaking it okay?
People get married for all sorts of reasons, and "stealing" people away from each other-with brainwashing magic equivalent to drugs no less-would mark you as a horrible person no matter the circumstance in my book. The families end up with a lot of problems to deal with, you're effectively depriving someone of a secure financial or political future, and Heronia isn't even doing it out of love so much as just wanting a reverse-harem. Let's reduce this to the coldest, most emotionless interpretation of an engagement and look at them as business transactions. Stealing someone from their engagement is akin to robbing their partner of resources and dignity, which our heroine is just sorta doing for the hell of it.
Heck, since any boys that fall for Heronia aren't conquest targets in the game, chances are that they'll be thrown away after graduation, but this part is my speculation.
@Psychronia you're exactly right. @Mahtan doesn't seem to get this for some reason though. The only thing I would say though is breaking the political marriges is a 'big deal' but not really frowned upon it seems. We've seen nor heard of no repercussions for that and everyone seems to be okay with it in the end, so that leads to me to believe it's not 'unheard of' and just somethign they really need to think about before doing.
I would also like to add there there are two moralities at play when any action is taken. The morality of the person, and the morality of the action itself. If you're unaware of the consequences of an action, you could still be a morally good person, because you didn't have ill intent, but the action would still be a morally bad action. This however does not make morality 'subjective' as some people think. At least not when we're talking about it on a binary since of 'bad' or 'good'. A morally bad action, is an action that causes more harm than good. It doesn't matter what people know, that only effects -perceived- morality, but not actual morality.People's perceptions of a person are not absolute, and people confused 'morality' with law, but morality is about the base principles of the action or person, and so morality is only applied to the whole of information, not to partial.
So no Heronia thinking that this is her 'right' does not make her actions morally just. That's like saying the nazis were just because they believed they had the right as a superior kind of human. Delusions of grandeur do not change the morality of one's actions. It just makes that person either mentally unstable, or an idiot. And it -might- excuse them if they are mentally ill enough, but it still doesn't change the 'morality'. Morality should not be confused for "Will they be blamed in court" That's why 'law' is not called a 'moral code' because they are separate things.
And for the record, how Bertia treats Cecil is morally wrong too, because she, like Heronia is ignoring his agency. Disregarding someone's freewill, is morally wrong, plain and simple. Be it Bertia or Heronia, be it if they're crazy or sane. All that chances is if they are punished and what it is, but it doesn't change the morality of it.
A great example is the 3 other heroes from Shield hero. They treat the world like it's a 'game' and people die because of it, and lots of damages happen, and lots of harm. You can't sit there and say they were morally right because "They thought it was their right to act that way"
I would also like to add there there are two moralities at play when any action is taken. The morality of the person, and the morality of the action itself. If you're unaware of the consequences of an action, you could still be a morally good person, because you didn't have ill intent, but the action would still be a morally bad action. This however does not make morality 'subjective' as some people think. At least not when we're talking about it on a binary since of 'bad' or 'good'. A morally bad action, is an action that causes more harm than good. It doesn't matter what people know, that only effects -perceived- morality, but not actual morality.People's perceptions of a person are not absolute, and people confused 'morality' with law, but morality is about the base principles of the action or person, and so morality is only applied to the whole of information, not to partial.
So no Heronia thinking that this is her 'right' does not make her actions morally just. That's like saying the nazis were just because they believed they had the right as a superior kind of human. Delusions of grandeur do not change the morality of one's actions. It just makes that person either mentally unstable, or an idiot. And it -might- excuse them if they are mentally ill enough, but it still doesn't change the 'morality'. Morality should not be confused for "Will they be blamed in court" That's why 'law' is not called a 'moral code' because they are separate things.
And for the record, how Bertia treats Cecil is morally wrong too, because she, like Heronia is ignoring his agency. Disregarding someone's freewill, is morally wrong, plain and simple. Be it Bertia or Heronia, be it if they're crazy or sane. All that chances is if they are punished and what it is, but it doesn't change the morality of it.
A great example is the 3 other heroes from Shield hero. They treat the world like it's a 'game' and people die because of it, and lots of damages happen, and lots of harm. You can't sit there and say they were morally right because "They thought it was their right to act that way"
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