Kedamonotachi no Jikan ~Kyouisonshou Kougun~

[portable]

@ginaasofnow
I would disagree on the part of anguish and despair being only catered to sadist, It may be a little bit hardcore but being powerless and forced to behave in some ways sound similar to what a sub would like.
I think it focus on male sadist and female sub demographic. So the Josei tag does not seem out of the way even if it is clearly less female focused than an average josei tag.
I wonder if girls consider the male character to be attractive because it does not look like your average male character in female focused manga. The girl is cute but her characteristics are not what you expect of a manga targeted only to male fetish.
It the comment it seems that the majority of people are male, but it may be that male in general are more hardcore ( proportion wise).


I agree also on the fact that this is quite nice that someone translate this manga.

 

[ginaasofnow]

@portable 2 couple of thoughts here: 1) I'm not saying that misery and anguish can't be marketed to either side of that dynamic, but rather that this doesn't seem to be doing that. In similar works, much of the turmoil stems from the sex itself, not the constant fear for the "sub's" life and the existential dread at never being able to escape and achieve their dreams. My point there was that there is a greater emphasis on the story than anything sexual, and if the story itself is what is meant to be fetishistic about this, then the emphasis has been placed on her emotional distress, and thus a strong emphasis on sadism, like 'Justine' by Marquis de Sade. Not to mention that the female lead is the emotional point of reference for the audience. If it's catering to people who'd want to be in her shoes, then it's strange to have her be so miserable at every panel of the process. (I should also maybe clarify and say that I'm not calling this a fetish-focused work. I actually don't think it's meant to be. There's so little emphasis in the scenes where anything sexual happens that I think they're just a vehicle to tell a dark story, and the only reason I brought it up in the first place was because someone mentioned it being targeted at women with a kidnapping/rape fantasy.)

2) This kinda highlights my confusion, and also my initial point: If it caters so much better to men, why make it a josei?? I'm under the impression that in Japan, you have to find a magazine that hits a certain demographic, pitch that story to them, and then go about the process of writing that story and selling it to THAT target. This would include designing a cover that attracts that target, and including certain character milestones or characteristics in the characters that wouldn't turn the reader off the story. But this looks like a lot of seinen written. So, why not sell it to that audience, instead of this niche space in a niche space? (I should maybe also clarify again and say that I'm not saying that no women would enjoy a seinen manga or vice versa, but from a marketing standpoint it doesn't make sense to market something to a very small audience and when there's a wider audience would be more likely to buy it if they knew about it.)

tl;dr 1) I didn't mean that anguish and misery have no place in fetish SM manga, but that they misery they're emphasizing isn't sexually charged, and if it was it'd be unlikely to appeal to a masochists' sensibility. 2) And if men like it more, than isn't that seinen by default?

Sorry for the horrific text wall. I just thought it'd be better to reason it all out at once.

 

[Aya-shi]

@portable @ginaasofnow I do not know who put this under Josei but it seems wrong to me. The monthly RiSky magasine, in which this was first published, caters more to males 30+ I would say. Usually containing horror stories (going from real life occurrence such as this one and bullying to ghost-like stories) and fetish-like stories with virtually no sex-explicit panels. They do seem to put a lot of violence against women on the covers although not all publications are in that sense (many are), I suppose it is for shock value or something. The author, big brother, usually draws fetish artwork for both men and women (more for men, I suppose it is because he has more male patreons). I wouldn't tag this under Josei, but having read all the releases, I wouldn't tag this 100% Seinen either, probably just Gruesome-liking individuals Such an interesting and challenging concept!

 

[elletequila]

@portable @ginaasofnow This is 100% not Josei what are you (portable) talking about? I agree that some 30+ females might wanna read this, but it’s the same that some 30+ females want to read Naruto, a shounen. But definitely not what most adult female readers would be interested at. So your minority reasoning doesn’t make sense. 🤦🏻‍♂️ This is clearly a Seinen. And wtf with romance tag? Even if some romance developed ter, this story clearly isn’t Romance. Ginaa is right. And @autismonaut you are so wrong.🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️🤦🏻‍♂️ I am a female that has rape fantasy but rape fantasy only works if I self-insert myself into the character that has to, to a certain extent, enjoy the sex. She doesn’t even blush or breathing hard. She’s just miserable and this is not our kink. FFS the first time they had sex they doesn’t show the sex scenes, they just show the outcome of him cumming many times and her crying hopelessly. I’m only in this because I love gore too and I’m in this for gore, not smut. I repeat, this is not what women’s kink of rape fantasy looks like. Do your homework before confidently saying something completely off like this.

 

[UniYuki]

Wow now that was a wild ride considering I couldn't understand most of it.

 

[MushuTrueG]

I have....concerns....jk.

Wtf is this, wut ?¿?¿ yo wut is this....lmao💀 frl.

 

[portable]

@elletequila Most male readers would not be interested in this either so I do not understand your point exactly.
How would you define romance because if you see the chinesse translation which is more updated there seems clearly to have some kind of romance even if it is fucked up romance.

I agree on the seinen part otherwise and the fact that the josei tag is most likely not correct.
I am not expert on female fetish, but as a male some fetish like rape, ryona or slavery have wide range of like and dislike.
Are you sure than your opinion of what you like in rape is the same as all female, because for male there is a lot of variation ?


@ginaasofnow Yeah it is clearly not fetish focused you are right, I am biased as I found this story erotic. I also agree than the josei tag is not right.

No problem for the big text, always enjoyable to speak with gentlemen about important and complex topic 🙂.

 

[elletequila]

@portable If that’s the case then maybe you’re right about romance tag, depends on if the Stockholm syndrome really happens here.

Regarding the rape fantasy, yes Im pretty sure the “majority” (even though probably not all since nothing is 100% when it comes to preferences) will agree with me. I’ve seen in many popular Josei Smut manga, even when there’s very little pleasure seen on the fmc’s expression (crying but still blushing and moaning) the comments sections will be “yikes to rapey, Im out” and this manga fmc’s pleasure is non-existent (she cries but she also looks dead inside ) and the act of him showing “how her rivals progress well in the business when she’s held captive and that her career she worked hard for is finished” is even less erotic here.

I’m on the more violent side and I enjoy a smut where fmc is slapped and held captive til their minds break that most female readers had to drop. And if I don’t find this erotic, I can tell you that majority of female readers won’t be turned on by this.

I could be turned on by this if the fmc sex scenes are the main focus (hence the validity of @ginaasofnow arguments) and that the fmc moans just once or twice. That’s why I totally agree with Gina and the others that this manga is not what we want to self-insert or be in her shoes.

Another thing that support my point is that, look at this manga comments. Female readers were talking that this non-pleasuring situation is not a fantasy we crave. I think this manga only wants to explore the male lead’s traumatic mentality and behavior mostly, hence the wrong Josei tag.

My personal take on this kink: I think women love strong men, and they loved to be dominated, rather than seeing a wimpy guy in play. But it’s different from BDSM that beats women black and blue til she coughs up blood. That’s just my hypothesis tho.

 

[anifd]

@elletequila the publisher is bunkasha, which publishes mostly josei, though they do seinen too if i recall. this work is in comic risky (also part of bunkasha), which has a lot of edgier content, but even that magazine is somehow labeled as josei. the online stores i've seen also list it as such.

im not even sure myself who this work is really meant for, but it is tagged what it is, regardless if people disagree.

Spoiler

i think she finds a common point with the rapist later? though in the previews i read, it doesn't explicitly state if it's love if i recall. they're just short previews so maybe it is Stockholm syndrome. she also gets a husband too who isn't the rapist and the series is still ongoing, hence the romance tag i guess

 

[Dvenger]

Oh boy... someone forgot to mention in the description the many warnings and triggers. Cause not everyone digs this " josei demographic"; I even had to look twice. Josei they say 😂😂🤣🤣. My close to two decades of manga reading say hell naw to this manga being "josei". People... what part of this manga makes it a realistic romance? I need answers...

Also, publisher-san, your categorization of josei, romance, and love does not match mine nor does it match the few hundred reviews I'm reading on your Japanese website. Like at all😅. You have some explaining to do, cause, as far as I know, it ain't josei with these kinks and triggers unless the FL digs them. And I'm sorry to say our Airi here doesn't look on board with any of them. And it just goes downhill... I'll just go add some serious warnings on Baka Updates at least.

 

[AnotherRat]

@Dvenger I dunno bro, maybe try DM or pinging the publisher or something bro 😳

 

[Dvenger]

@AnotherRat oh, I think they already know that from the few hundred people flooding the review and comment section😅; I just don't think they care that much, which is worse. I remember that Australia has some issues with the lack of warnings/correct classification with either some otome games🤔 or Japanese light novels a while back, so it's not something new. But the lack of serious trigger warnings might really not be fun for some people who have PTSD for example. Cause those romance and josei tags are really misleading and folks might not be able to make an informed decision. I think that ccidentally activating traumas like sexual assault, domestic violence, or abuse is not fun😰. The manga is very good though so bonus points for the publisher for publishing it, I guess.

 

[ruhrohshingo]

Not going to lie. When I saw the cover I thought the MC was holding a sign that read "Risky Series" and didn't recognize it was actually a knife until a bit later.

 

[NymphBeta]

Ooh, Stockholm Syndrome or really good acting? We'll see

 

[kazunya]

might be interesting if this is stockholm syndrome

 

[portable]

Fuck it is really getting more and more disturbing.
Honnestly i am not sure i can handle the last part of the manga.

 

[AnotherRat]

@ruhrohshingo Damn, same xDDD

 

[readingperson]

disturbing

 

[virito3]

Where do you guys read the japanese raws?

 

[joker1313]

This is messed up the kidnaped girl become a psycho too a sadist...