Kishuku Gakkou no Juliet - Vol. 12 Ch. 83 - Romio, Leon and the Secret (Part II)

[Yautja]

@HOOfan_1 @Xelda
Hello? Are you reading this manga? No shit it's a modern setting. You do realize what modern means, yes? Relating to the present or recent times as opposed to the remote past; having car, cellphones and the like is exactly what modern means. Having aristocracy or some other outdated shit doesn't change that. Take a good look at all modern countries and you'll find a bunch of archaic bullshit. Your argument is basically "fictional cannot be modern". A clearly ridiculous position that can only be held by someone either willfully deceitful or simply unaware of what the words mean.

And kidnappings and marriage of grown adults still happen? You do realize that's not happening in modern, 1st world countries and your argument is a faulty analogy, right? These two places are hardly comparable to some backwards UAE or SA bullshit. These are modern countries that hate each other with some mildly outdated practices, as all modern 1st countries have, not dictatorships full of theocratic or authoritarian ruling. Hell, there's an argument that a lot of Western countries are influenced by aristocracies in spirit. You think giant companies (run by families or not) influencing society are uncommon? What would you call those? They seem pretty damn similar to an aristocracy. But considering you all keep plugging your ears are going "It's not a modern setting! Lalalala!" I'm not going to bother.

Having clear cases of prejudice or xenophobia doesn't mean either country would allow outright crimes or international incidents. Socially shaming someone is a hell of a lot different than a kidnapping and forced marriage of a legal adult. Especially not when they're post war and just getting into the groove of a peace treaty and beginning to mend international relationships. You really think any government would allow their citizens, powerful or not to kidnap and assault foreign citizens during an unstable post war setting? Yea, right.

@Misticsan
Thank you, good lord, at least one fan of this series is actually thinking about this.

 

[Misticsan]

@HOOfan_1
When I say "modern", I don't mean the values or even the technology, but the fact that they act as "modern states": they have stable governments, clear frontiers, international relations and legal enforcerment. Regardless of their sentiments for the runaway Westian daughter, allowing such a kidnapping without some serious reason would make Touwan authorities look subservient to the West. Since there's been bad blood between them for generations, it's incredibly jarring. Of course, we can find explanations. Like this:

As for allowing the Westians in, and overlooking that they assaulted a Touwan citizen in doing so, as I suggested before, perhaps Leon's mother went through diplomatic channels from Westia to Touwa and informed them she planned to retrieve her daughter whom she considered being held illegally in Touwa.

But again, it's just conjecture. And even then, wouldn't it make far more sense for Touwan authorities to do it themselves than allow nobles from a hated country do as they please, disregarding Touwan law in broad daylight?

At this point, it looks as if the author just wanted to have "shitty Westians doing bad things to Leon's family" to justify her hatred and didn't think too much about the implications of such an event. Unwarranted? Perhaps, and perhaps the series will clarify things later. Because at this point, it looks like the equivalent of a powerful URSS family in the middle of the Cold War breaking into a house in the USA and taking someone in front of tens of witnesses. Or the other way round.

 

[lupus_in_fabula]

When your 7 year old stepbrother is more mature than you...

 

[Geany]

This kidnapping doesn't sound so absurd to me, considering the cultural and political context we've been shown.
It's true that it's been a bit brutal, with the assault of Hitler-chan's dad; but you know, Touwa's government could simply not know that. I think that daddy didn't bother to report it, knowing he would be useless. Touwa would have used this as diplomatic leverage, and asking the woman back would squander it.
Of course this is merely a conjecture, but it's an example of how things could have happened without need of invoking a plothole. I think it's unfair to judge and criticize until we have a more complete overview of these events.

 

[Misticsan]

@Geany

It's true that it's been a bit brutal, with the assault of Hitler-chan's dad; but you know, Touwa's government could simply not know that. I think that daddy didn't bother to report it, knowing he would be useless. Touwa would have used this as diplomatic leverage, and asking the woman back would squander it.

I like that explanation, it makes sense. But still, I'd argue that it's something that the author should have clarified, or clarify in the future.

Because until now, we've been told that tensions between Touwa and the West run high; that animosity extends from the higher-ups to the common citizen; that it's really uncommon for Westians and Touwans to be together, and that Dahlia Academy is an exception in this regard. That a noble Westian family could move throughout the country and kidnap someone in public without any kind of opposition seemingly goes against what we know of their situation so far. Questions such as "how come they got away with it in a country that hates them?", "why didn't the authorities, the police or even the local bigots stop them at some point?" or "how did they cross the frontier?" (Touwa and the West don't share a land border) will come up, MST3K Mantra or not.

I actually hope that the author will explain it. I mean, they even explained Inuzuka's sudden lead in the polls, and we all know that sooner or later our protagonists will help Leon deal with her family's situation. Love conquers all!

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

@Yautja
And why are you appealing to real 1st world countries for analogy? I'm not even sure if Three-World Model is applicable in this setting. Developed? Maybe. And i don't know where you got "mildly outdated practices" - both West and Touwa look to me like authoritarian regimes rooted deep in their traditions.

@Misticsan

stable governments, clear frontiers, international relations and legal enforcerment

Sure doesn't stop some authoritarian countries from accepting such atrocities as norm.

Rather than a Cold War it's more of a Thaw, albeit, a rather stalled one. And even then, it's not the same as with USSR and USA, as both sides are authoritarian states. Leon might be very much on the spot on one thing - this treaty between countries might be not much more than a gimmick. Both West and Touwa can talk about friendship all they want, but in the end they care more about their traditions. But that's exactly why their intentions align. @HOOfan_1's caught onto what i was saying - it's not that Touwan government does not care. It does care, and for all traditionalist in Touwa and West the goal is the same - to pull apart the heretic union of Touwan and Westian (just recall Leon's speech - she got support from both Black Dogs and White Cats).

Now, if Touwans expelled a Westian from their country THAT would be a scandal. If Westians take a Westian away by force (especially if they are related) - it's "their own" business, something Touwans take no part in. Just need to pull some string to get local authorities to ignore a little Westian family squabble. Kidnapping was kept low-profile - no damage done (to the treaty, at least).

It wasn't spelled out for us, yeah, but it's the most plausible explanation.

 

[Geany]

@Misticsan
I think we'll have a more detailed narration when they'll meet the mum, since at least a question must be answered: how she was persuaded to play along with evil granny's plans (not trying to escape again, marrying a random nobleman). If a few words (threats?) in the car sufficed and the mum started to behave, how could anyone guess it was a kidnapping?
For why no one stopped them in front of the house, it's simple: they saw she was a westerner. Part of them probably was glad she was removed from their neighbourhood, the others just didn't care enough to help. And it was so sudden I doubt even I would have intervened, had I been in their place.
I'll add this: stopping them would cause a severe strain in the already delicate relationship between the countries. The politicians seem to want peace, so they wouldn't risk this fragile equilibrium over something like that.

 

[HOOfan_1]

@HYBRID_BEING That's a good point. Since it's Westians who came in to retrieve a Westian, specifically a Westian of noble bood, the Touwan Government can deflect any blame if she was harmed. At the same time, it would be even more plausible if a squad of Touwans went with Leon's grandmother to restrain Leon's father while Leon's grandmother's men dragged Leon's mother out of there.

 

[HOOfan_1]

@Geany Yeah as it is now is Leon supposed to believe that her mother just gave up on her and abandoned her? The grandmother certainly wants her to think that. Is the part about being married away to a Duke even the truth? If it is, has her new husband basically imprisoned her? Why hasn't she run away or tried to contact her Touwan family?

Leon's grandmother said she planned to give her a severe education on being a noble Westian lady. I suppose that may have included torture and brainwashing. Certainly she could have also used threats like "if you try to contact those Touwans you love so much, your that half-breed's secret will be revealed and she won't be welcome in Touwa or Westia."

 

[Yautja]

@HYBRID_BEING
Why wouldn't I? It's what the majority of the readers live in, has occurred and is therefore more credible than conjecture and is an extremely close comparison to setting of the series. You're going to argue that these aren't 1st world countries? From what we've seen of the academy, academy city, the respective countries, the technology, architecture, social, political & legal structure, as well as the behaviour of the citizens, it looks like a 1st world, modern country. It's certainly a hell of a lot closer to that than anything else. And really? They look like an authoritarian regimes? Are you kidding me? How? Please explain how they look like authoritarian regimes. We have just as much evidence to suggest they're authoritarian regimes as we do to believe kidnapping foreign citizens is kosher. I swear, half the people on this website don't know what the words they use mean. Are you actually going to say these places are closer to North Korea, China, Saudia Arabia, Russia and the like than to Japan, Britain, the USA, Canada and so on? You've got to be kidding me.

From what we've seen of Touwa, it's a carbon copy of Japan, except it's recently post war with the West. The West looks like an amalgamation of Western Europe; Britain, France and the like. Also post war, but slight more patriarchal than the modern west and is highlighting a more prevalent aristocracy, one which is hardly different than what most rich families and companies could be defined as today. Both have traditions and maybe they're conservative, but that's it. You seem to be using post war tension and tribalism as an excuse to classify them as authoritarian. And that's almost as big a stretch as calling the Venezuelan election legitimate.

As for what you directed to Misticsan, my god are you bad at conjuring contrivances. You're entire argument is just conjecture, conjecture that is at best a bad story. The entire thing is an assumption. It reads like a conspiracy theory. This is why everyone thinks weebs are crazy.

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

@HOOfan_1
I disagree, Westian going together with a squad of Touwans would've raised some questions.
Leon's father wasn't beaten to a pulp in a middle of a street (was not entirely unscathed probably, but i got an impression that the trauma mentioned was more of a mental one). Besides, unlike her mother, he seems like a small fry and neighbors didn't approve of him that much for his relationship with Westian, so there was no need for Touwans to involve with this directly.

@Yautja
Okay, fair enough, i probably did interpreted tribalism and power abuse as a signs of authoritarianism there. My bad. I still think you are disregarding traditionalism and conservatism a bit too much, though.
As for the conjecture - yes, it is a conjecture, simply because we are not given much information at this point. I might have exaggerated my words a bit, but for me it doesn't sound very unbelievable that with such traditionalist societies there are some, on both sides, who'd go as far as to allow this kidnapping happen.

 

[Yautja]

@HYBRID_BEING
Japan is a deeply traditional and conservative country, the Inuit (not a country but w.e), South Korea, and Sigapore are as well. Some places even argue that the US and Britain qualify as deeply traditional or conservative. You're conflating conservative and tradition with inherently negative presuppositions. I don't see what's inherently wrong with either of those things, certainly not the ways they're portrayed here. I also don't see how they contribute to your argument in any way.

Conservative & Traditional != Stereotypical Red Neck Southern USA or UAE / SA. Tradition is defined as transmissions of customs or beliefs between generations. Conservative is defined as those who uphold those traditions and are wary of change, specifically in regards to politics or religion. I don't see how either of these contribute in any meaningful way to what you've claimed. Neither side seem particularly religious; we've seen rosaries & religion a handful of times, neither side seem particularly or excessively "Man > Wahem" or vice versa; the leaders of each house are incredibly diverse and the only indication of such is Juliet's father's behavior, and neither side seem excessively afraid of development or technology. The only thing you seem to be able to contribute conservatism and tradition to is xenophobia and tribalism, four things which is not inherently tied to together. Just look at identity politics in the west. And since we've only seen the relationship between these two specific countries, you'll have an even harder time arguing xenophobia and tribalism to the point of it being a tradition or value as opposed to it being a simple tribal rivalry.

As for conjecture, your justification doesn't make it any of this better or more reasonable. Not having enough information is a shit excuse to make up effectively random guesses. As for "a bit of an exaggeration", are you kidding me? You called them Authoritarian Regimes, that's a hell of a lot more than "a bit". Traditional in no contrived way shape or form means "kidnapping is no big deal and possibly reasonable". You think any of the countries I listed would kidnap or let citizens be kidnapped like that? It's an even more ridiculous idea when the setting is post war, between two modern, first world countries. A world where international relations are a large concern. If you wanna argue they wanna have nothing to do with each other on a national scale? Fine, but you're going to have a hard time when that school & island are there, and you're going to have an even harder time arguing that they're going to be cooperative enough to kidnap each other's citizens, regardless of origin or that they'd risk the scandal if they didn't have that cooperation. The whole point of that school is to better international relations, you expect me to believe either side would want a high profile international kidnapping? It's a ridiculous, contrived, plot convenience to justify Leon's batshit crazy disposition. Either you're going to have to argue the West is similar enough to SA (SA has a history of this) and is willing to kidnap it's citizens who are trying to escape from the country and then either make them disappear or force the marriage of a legal adult, or that it's a Britain like country who'd do the same, neither of which seem believable.

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

@Yautja
I was wrong about mentioning traditionalism in this context (i guess i started talking about it because of mother's family, given what that old hag told Leon). As with authoritarianism. Note to self: do not discuss politics (even fictional ones) without getting some sleep.
I wasn't trying to imply that traditions and conservatism are inherently bad, just that they CAN possibly lead to some extreme and ugly things.
You said conservatives are wary of political changes - i think that applies to the situation, since we are talking about relationship between two nations after the war.
I wasn't implying they were inherently xenophobic, just telling that they are still antagonistic to each other.

"High profile international kidnapping" - well, as i already mentioned, i'm not seeing a high profile kidnapping here. Neighbors don't care, local authorities don't got involved, dad flees the neighborhood after the incident. I never implied it was a government-orchestrated kidnapping and i never implied kidnappings to be some kinda everyday thing for West or Touwa, but i won't be surprised if local authorities were involved (at least on the "Ignore this incident" level). If that sounds more ridiculous to you than a bunch of Westians raiding a Touwan house and kidnapping a person out of nowhere than we can agree to disagree.
As for improvement of international relations, i don't see Touwa and West putting much effort in improving theirs. We've seen that even ministers of Education detested the idea and it hardly feels like the school has any effect on it. So, are they mainly trying to keep up their image in front of other countries? Or just keeping it up as tradition? Either way, friendship between them does seem like BS, atm.

 

[NamelessGent]

@Confused

Are you using your own TL for ch. 84, or /a/'s translation?

 

[Confused]

@NamelessGent

own

 

[54kr1]

I have never seen a lot of long comment.......

 

[Yautja]

@HYBRID_BEING
Well, everything you've said would lead anyone who's read your comments to believe the exact opposite. No matter how you try and spin it, you called both countries "Authoritarian Regimes", claimed I was ignoring tradition and conservatism too much when I dismissed your ridiculous claim on authoritarian regimes, and blamed your claim of them being authoritarian regimes and justified the possibility of them kidnapping and assaulting foreign citizens exactly on those two things.

And what would you call a broad daylight kidnapping and assault of multiple citizens by a foreign internationals? Do I need to start defining words again? I don't really believe any of what you claim to see at this point. I haven't had much of an opinion for your observations the moment you tried to call Touwa and the West authoritarian regimes. Trying to cover it up doesn't change the nature of the incident. You can claim no one cares, but yet again, it's baseless conjecture. People certainly looked uncomfortable and the father sure as hell cared. Inaction doesn't not equal apathy.

Except you did imply one of those things and I was never arguing the second; don't try to change what you or I have argued mid stream. Local authorities are government employees, ergo, the government was involved, at the very least in your claim. Next, me saying a country, not a government, is willing to do these things includes it's residents, so quit dodging. And you expect local citizens are just going to ignore a crime committed on their soil against not just a foreign citizen, but a natural born citizen too, regardless of their social status, without any prompt from either their government or foreign bribery / intimidation? Fat chance. It sure as hell does sound ridiculous considering you laid out zero backing for your conjecture besides patently ridiculous claims / opinions with no real world or fictional consistency as well as attempted to alter both of our arguments.

Really? You don't see them trying to improve relations? Colour me surprised. What would you call two countries funding a mutual ground island filled with an extremely prestigious, well-funded school filled with the children of politicians, leaders and high class citizens who will likely go onto inherent those positions as well as a well built, high quality fucking city? A location literally designed to integrate and have students interact with past enemies? That sure seems like an effort in improving relations. Administrators not liking it doesn't matter or imply anything other than what we already know. Relations are bad. They didn't make the decision to fund, construct, staff or supply the island. From what we know, there's only one reasonable conclusion for that island to exist, to improve relations.

Like I said, you're arguing uphill, not only by your own choice, but by your position. You're arguing entirely with conjecture for ridiculous and counterproductive intentions. Countries put their interest first, and considering they've gone to war, the war has ended and they've begun reparations and integration, as per the existence of that island, ruining international relationships is just about the stupidest fuckin' thing anyone could do. So, goodluck arguing that these countries want to start a war, ruin or are apathetic to international relations, and are comparable to dictatorships like SA or are countries like Britain with no problem employing dictatorial strategies. We don't have enough information to believe or even suggest any of that, and your arguments are already ridiculous as is, so good luck with that. And if anything is bs, it's your argument.

 

[HYBRID_BEING]

@Yautja
Look, i admit, i threw around some words i didn't actually thought through well enough, made some hasty assumptions, and bringing up "authoritarian regimes" was a huge screw-up on my part (i partly blame my lack of sleep). After giving it a good though, i understand that it was ridiculous of me.

Just to correct you a bit: incident transpired almost entirely inside Leon's home (you can see that she wasn't aware until she entered her house). Only when car stopped by to pick up Westians, neighbors saw some commotion. They looked uncomfortable, alright. Even more so when Leon cried for help - they just turned away their gazes. Wow, such caring neighbors! And i never said father didn't care (heck, he even got a trauma - a mental one, i presume). However he wasn't able to bring back his dear wife. Why? Afraid about escalating kidnapping into an international conflict? Or maybe he was just denied by the local authorities (again, why?)? I doubt there was anyone on their side, and I fail to see what's so baseless about this assumption - the whole chapter screams that this family was not welcome there.

"Except you did imply one of those things", um, except i didn't? Sorry for my bad choice of words, if it looked otherwise. I do not find it weird for Touwans to ignore a kidnapping of a Westian by Westians, considering her Touwan husband most likely wasn't even harmed physically too much. Especially if the word got out, that she was taken by her own family. I'll repeat, chapter clearly shows that their relationship didn't gather much support among their neighbors. As for the authorities' involvement (through action or inaction) - that's what i've been repeating from the get-go, no?

Yep, i fail to see anything that encourages cooperation of students of both Houses. True, the infrastructure is there, they are living on the same island and go to the same educational institution. And at the same time, dorms are segregated, classes are segregated, villages are segregated, and we haven't seen anyone other than Romio and Juliet bothering to think about the purpose for which this academy was established in the first place. Ministers of Education, teachers, principals of the dormitories, prefects, students - no one gives a wooden nickle about improving relationship between both countries. Of course, now we have Romio and Juliet to fix this mess, but school administration should have had it on the list of goals from the beginning. I agree that Dahlia Academy was designed for this purpose (if you put aside conspiracy theories, like "playing good neighbors for other countries"), but at this point it's just a force of habit. And i'm most certainly would be happy to see more characters gunning for coexistence (openly or secretly).

I'm honestly starting to lose a track of what we are arguing about here, so i'm gonna stop now.

 

[Yautja]

@HYBRID_BEING
Dude, you haven't been on track at any point; the entirety this conversation has been you using words you don't understand, making assumptions and so on. I agree, there's zero purpose in responding to you at this point, everything you've said is either conjecture or an opinion you want to be true despite it having zero evidence, or more likely, evidence to the contrary; everything in that comment is something I've addressed previously.

 

[Y36]

@Yautja
From what I can gather by tracking back to where these arguments started, you're wondering how can that grandmother get away with forcefully taking her daughter away from her family in broad daylight?