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don't worry Inuzuka you will definitely win the election lol xD
Kishuku Gakkou no Juliet - Vol. 12 Ch. 83 - Romio, Leon and the Secret (Part II)
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oh and for that absurdly long comments, raise you hand if you guys actually read it?
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@Yautja
I never said anything about it not being modern. It is indeed modern, well done. It's also still a fictional setting.
Too bad these are FICTIONAL COUNTRIES, inspired by but distinct from ones in real life. Also, forced marriage aside, I can assure you that adults can and DO get abducted in First World Countries - it's probably not as common as child abductions but it still happens, and considering that this is a rich and powerful house, that means they have the money to cover their actions.
You're assuming these two countries work similarly to places like America, England, France, etc. These are countries where simply being from the opposite nation is enough for someone to want to beat you up. Discrimination and tensions are high. It's not the least bit unreasonable that people from Touwa would see a Westian clearly being harrased and abducted by other Westians and not do anything to help. Hell it's not unreasonable to think they'd be happy to see the Westian gone.
I never said anything about it not being modern. It is indeed modern, well done. It's also still a fictional setting.
Too bad these are FICTIONAL COUNTRIES, inspired by but distinct from ones in real life. Also, forced marriage aside, I can assure you that adults can and DO get abducted in First World Countries - it's probably not as common as child abductions but it still happens, and considering that this is a rich and powerful house, that means they have the money to cover their actions.
You're assuming these two countries work similarly to places like America, England, France, etc. These are countries where simply being from the opposite nation is enough for someone to want to beat you up. Discrimination and tensions are high. It's not the least bit unreasonable that people from Touwa would see a Westian clearly being harrased and abducted by other Westians and not do anything to help. Hell it's not unreasonable to think they'd be happy to see the Westian gone.
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@Xelda
Yea, fictional, first world, modern countries. Unless a fictional world has given us a reason to believe X is normal when in reality it is abnormal, we do not assume X to be normal. And yea, kidnapping does happen, but is it at all likely, believable or similar to the terms as laid out in the manga. Fuck no. You don't hear about Bill Gates kidnapping his daughter from some foreign guy. The other guy I was talking to tried much harder than you, and made just as ridiculous a case. Read what he said, because unless you're going to add nothing new, I'm not going to bother repeating myself. Same as always, baseless conjecture based off nothing but a desire to believe something.
Yea, fictional, first world, modern countries. Unless a fictional world has given us a reason to believe X is normal when in reality it is abnormal, we do not assume X to be normal. And yea, kidnapping does happen, but is it at all likely, believable or similar to the terms as laid out in the manga. Fuck no. You don't hear about Bill Gates kidnapping his daughter from some foreign guy. The other guy I was talking to tried much harder than you, and made just as ridiculous a case. Read what he said, because unless you're going to add nothing new, I'm not going to bother repeating myself. Same as always, baseless conjecture based off nothing but a desire to believe something.
@Yautja
I think the author just didn't bother to make the kidnapping be workable in the real world. It seems to me that the author just wanted to create a situation where Leon's family peace is threaten, and when she desperately cried for help the public just turned a blind eye for reasons. All this is to make Leon to be separated from her loved one, hate the West (for the wrong reasons) and to have the idea that the West and Touwan can never come to a peace.
You could argue that a more believable method can be used instead of this forced kidnapping to achieve the same result, it's just that to me it doesn't matter
I think the author just didn't bother to make the kidnapping be workable in the real world. It seems to me that the author just wanted to create a situation where Leon's family peace is threaten, and when she desperately cried for help the public just turned a blind eye for reasons. All this is to make Leon to be separated from her loved one, hate the West (for the wrong reasons) and to have the idea that the West and Touwan can never come to a peace.
You could argue that a more believable method can be used instead of this forced kidnapping to achieve the same result, it's just that to me it doesn't matter
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@Y36
Completely agree and that's 100% my point. It's not believable or reasonable in both a fictional or realistic sense. I literally said: " It's a ridiculous, contrived, plot convenience to justify Leon's batshit crazy disposition." Everyone else is too busy justifying every ridiculous point of this manga because they want to believe it's better than it is.
Completely agree and that's 100% my point. It's not believable or reasonable in both a fictional or realistic sense. I literally said: " It's a ridiculous, contrived, plot convenience to justify Leon's batshit crazy disposition." Everyone else is too busy justifying every ridiculous point of this manga because they want to believe it's better than it is.
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@Yautja
Well then, why don't we use this VERY EXAMPLE of a kidnapping happening and people not doing anything to stop it, to assume that, yes, in this world, a Westian can be kidnapped by Westians and people won't do anything to stop it? Hell, before we saw that people are willing to KILL each other simply for dating somebody of the opposite nation, you could argue such a thing would be absurd, that they'd not go that far. But then we saw it, so we know that that's how this world works. Seeing is believing, as they say.
And saying that it's "normal" is a stretch - we're saying it's something that CAN happen, not that it's the norm. We're saying that Touwans would absolutely not do a thing to interfere with a Westian being kidnapped by Westians, not that that very scenario is the "norm". Quite the opposite, a Westian marrying a Touwan is VERY abnormal. At Dhalia, a Touwan and a Westian got together and were driven out by their fellow students. Here, a Westian is hiding her nationality so that she can be with her Touwan husband. These facts alone just show you how much hatred and the two countries have for each other, so frankly I would expect nothing less than for the Touwans to do nothing when they a Westian in trouble, especially when the agressor is another Westian.
Well then, why don't we use this VERY EXAMPLE of a kidnapping happening and people not doing anything to stop it, to assume that, yes, in this world, a Westian can be kidnapped by Westians and people won't do anything to stop it? Hell, before we saw that people are willing to KILL each other simply for dating somebody of the opposite nation, you could argue such a thing would be absurd, that they'd not go that far. But then we saw it, so we know that that's how this world works. Seeing is believing, as they say.
And saying that it's "normal" is a stretch - we're saying it's something that CAN happen, not that it's the norm. We're saying that Touwans would absolutely not do a thing to interfere with a Westian being kidnapped by Westians, not that that very scenario is the "norm". Quite the opposite, a Westian marrying a Touwan is VERY abnormal. At Dhalia, a Touwan and a Westian got together and were driven out by their fellow students. Here, a Westian is hiding her nationality so that she can be with her Touwan husband. These facts alone just show you how much hatred and the two countries have for each other, so frankly I would expect nothing less than for the Touwans to do nothing when they a Westian in trouble, especially when the agressor is another Westian.
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@Xelda
Jesus Christ, an instance of something happening does not prove it to be normal or reasonable, I'm not going to assume that shit without a good reason to believe so, especially when I already have a good argument against that bullshit. Just as delusional as the other guy. You're doing the exact same thing as the other guy, and I've already dealt with him, I'm not bothering with you as well. I repeat, take your bullshit conjecture and go home. Go read what that other guy said, it's the exact same shit you're spewing now. You're adding absolutely nothing to this conversation. If anything, you're doing a bad job at plagiarizing the guy I was originally speaking to. I swear to god, this is why everyone hates weebs, they'll go through any lengths to defend something without acknowledging the flaws of what they're defending.
Jesus Christ, an instance of something happening does not prove it to be normal or reasonable, I'm not going to assume that shit without a good reason to believe so, especially when I already have a good argument against that bullshit. Just as delusional as the other guy. You're doing the exact same thing as the other guy, and I've already dealt with him, I'm not bothering with you as well. I repeat, take your bullshit conjecture and go home. Go read what that other guy said, it's the exact same shit you're spewing now. You're adding absolutely nothing to this conversation. If anything, you're doing a bad job at plagiarizing the guy I was originally speaking to. I swear to god, this is why everyone hates weebs, they'll go through any lengths to defend something without acknowledging the flaws of what they're defending.
@Xelda
Let me try to word this the other way round on his behalf. Unless if the author address the process Leon's grandmother has undertaken for the kidnapping, whether it's bribery or using her social connection, she's not legally able to get away with this without repercussion of some sort. If her mother has some kind of citizenship in Touwa, realistically she should be protected from being forcefully taken away by law, but we don't even know if Leon's mom was legally staying on Touwa, none of these are addressed in the manga. To me it looks like the neighbors didn't help Leon's mother because they are afraid to challenge the grandmother's high status rather than ignoring Westian's business, but even this point is still in the grey area and haven't been properly addressed yet. The point is even if there's a proper justification, as long as the incident is not a norm or outright against the system, it can't be feasible unless if the author justifies it him/herself. The justifications you brought up were probably not even the same with what the author have in mind, THE AUTHOR MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE A JUSTIFICATION OF HIS/HER OWN IN THE FIRST PLACE (at least at this point).
@Yautja
From what I can imagine, you're giving out the impression that you're trashing the whole manga (or at least Leon's tragic backgound) solely because of that unreasonable incident. If this is really what you think, I'd be disappointed for you would just simply allow such trivial matter that doesn't affect the integrality of the story to throw you off this series, because none of these would altered Leon's shattered happiness, her resentment and her false motivation to divide two countries, and the fact that that old hag is a self-centered, inconsiderate piece of shit. If this is not what you think, I believe it's best for you to address it now simply because that this argument thread is turning into a cesspool.
Let me try to word this the other way round on his behalf. Unless if the author address the process Leon's grandmother has undertaken for the kidnapping, whether it's bribery or using her social connection, she's not legally able to get away with this without repercussion of some sort. If her mother has some kind of citizenship in Touwa, realistically she should be protected from being forcefully taken away by law, but we don't even know if Leon's mom was legally staying on Touwa, none of these are addressed in the manga. To me it looks like the neighbors didn't help Leon's mother because they are afraid to challenge the grandmother's high status rather than ignoring Westian's business, but even this point is still in the grey area and haven't been properly addressed yet. The point is even if there's a proper justification, as long as the incident is not a norm or outright against the system, it can't be feasible unless if the author justifies it him/herself. The justifications you brought up were probably not even the same with what the author have in mind, THE AUTHOR MIGHT NOT EVEN HAVE A JUSTIFICATION OF HIS/HER OWN IN THE FIRST PLACE (at least at this point).
@Yautja
From what I can imagine, you're giving out the impression that you're trashing the whole manga (or at least Leon's tragic backgound) solely because of that unreasonable incident. If this is really what you think, I'd be disappointed for you would just simply allow such trivial matter that doesn't affect the integrality of the story to throw you off this series, because none of these would altered Leon's shattered happiness, her resentment and her false motivation to divide two countries, and the fact that that old hag is a self-centered, inconsiderate piece of shit. If this is not what you think, I believe it's best for you to address it now simply because that this argument thread is turning into a cesspool.
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@Y36
The only thing I've trashed in this chapter is Leon's "tragic background" and the ridiculous contents of this specific chapter, not only because it's unreasonable but because it's comically cliche, something you'd find on a cartoon super villain. I don't really care about Leon at all, she's a generic foil and antagonist who's driving purpose is to push the plot forward and be an antonym and enemy to Inuzaka. She's almost as boring as the grandmother.
This thread is already a cesspool with people spouting "what ifs" and random conjecture that isn't concurrent with reality nor the setting of the story or what it is based off of. I've seen zero competent justifications for this event. The best excuse is a grand conspiracy theory or throwing a ridiculous amount of money around. Even if those were true, such an obvious crime committed by bitter enemies would not go unnoticed unless everyone involved were dead. Someone would leak something, and the shit would spread. It always does. The author wrote himself into a corner.
The only thing I've trashed in this chapter is Leon's "tragic background" and the ridiculous contents of this specific chapter, not only because it's unreasonable but because it's comically cliche, something you'd find on a cartoon super villain. I don't really care about Leon at all, she's a generic foil and antagonist who's driving purpose is to push the plot forward and be an antonym and enemy to Inuzaka. She's almost as boring as the grandmother.
This thread is already a cesspool with people spouting "what ifs" and random conjecture that isn't concurrent with reality nor the setting of the story or what it is based off of. I've seen zero competent justifications for this event. The best excuse is a grand conspiracy theory or throwing a ridiculous amount of money around. Even if those were true, such an obvious crime committed by bitter enemies would not go unnoticed unless everyone involved were dead. Someone would leak something, and the shit would spread. It always does. The author wrote himself into a corner.
@Yautja
I hope at least we're on the same page on this topic, and the story and character appreciation is subjective
P/S: now onto something off topic, I personally want this incident to be leaked in the future, considering it has only happened possibly less than a year ago, and have the authority involved to arrest that old woman or at least have her lose her parental right to Leon's mother, because at this point I don't see how the MC can deal with that old woman by just bringing peace between two factions. In my opinion, there's no way the old lady would kidnap and force marriage on her own daughter simply because of racial difference and give her back to Leon without receiving any public or legal backlash just because 'real' peace has achieved. But because of plot, Inuzuka must help Leon overcome her problem and Leon's mother has to return somehow.
I hope at least we're on the same page on this topic, and the story and character appreciation is subjective
P/S: now onto something off topic, I personally want this incident to be leaked in the future, considering it has only happened possibly less than a year ago, and have the authority involved to arrest that old woman or at least have her lose her parental right to Leon's mother, because at this point I don't see how the MC can deal with that old woman by just bringing peace between two factions. In my opinion, there's no way the old lady would kidnap and force marriage on her own daughter simply because of racial difference and give her back to Leon without receiving any public or legal backlash just because 'real' peace has achieved. But because of plot, Inuzuka must help Leon overcome her problem and Leon's mother has to return somehow.
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@Y36
I don't care if people like it or appreciate it; I'm not arguing about subjectives like appreciation and enjoyment, I have a problem when people say it's reasonable, realistic or good / original writing. It's not, it's filled with logical inconsistencies, plot holes, and cliches. Most of which will probably be filled with contrivances if we're lucky and more likely not at all.
That's the stupidest fuckin' thing about this backstory. She shouldn't even have any 'parental rights' at this point, Leon's mother is a grown ass woman, and we've been given no reason to believe either country is like SA where women need a guardian. She could have called the cops the moment she got a chance in her country and solved this shit, but no, we'll get some cliche "she threatened my daughter and husband" or "kept me locked in a room for two years" kinda shit. Grandma Dumbass over here literally committed a host federal crimes, kidnapping, false imprisonment, human trafficking, forced marriage, assault, and who knows what else. None of that makes a modicum of sense. Just super-villain & soap-opera-drama shit. She could disown the mother but other than that, the mother should have literally zero ability to make choices for her. Unless I grossly misunderstand the age of adulthood in almost all civilized countries, your parent's don't get to tell you what to do once you're 18, even less so if you don't live with them, let alone in a different fucking country for that matter. This is going to have a fairy tale ending, that's how these kind of stories work. Either the grandma is going to learn the err of her ways or everyone's going to live happy while she's doing fuck all being the stereotype she is. It's one of the two.
I don't care if people like it or appreciate it; I'm not arguing about subjectives like appreciation and enjoyment, I have a problem when people say it's reasonable, realistic or good / original writing. It's not, it's filled with logical inconsistencies, plot holes, and cliches. Most of which will probably be filled with contrivances if we're lucky and more likely not at all.
That's the stupidest fuckin' thing about this backstory. She shouldn't even have any 'parental rights' at this point, Leon's mother is a grown ass woman, and we've been given no reason to believe either country is like SA where women need a guardian. She could have called the cops the moment she got a chance in her country and solved this shit, but no, we'll get some cliche "she threatened my daughter and husband" or "kept me locked in a room for two years" kinda shit. Grandma Dumbass over here literally committed a host federal crimes, kidnapping, false imprisonment, human trafficking, forced marriage, assault, and who knows what else. None of that makes a modicum of sense. Just super-villain & soap-opera-drama shit. She could disown the mother but other than that, the mother should have literally zero ability to make choices for her. Unless I grossly misunderstand the age of adulthood in almost all civilized countries, your parent's don't get to tell you what to do once you're 18, even less so if you don't live with them, let alone in a different fucking country for that matter. This is going to have a fairy tale ending, that's how these kind of stories work. Either the grandma is going to learn the err of her ways or everyone's going to live happy while she's doing fuck all being the stereotype she is. It's one of the two.
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I see the walls of text (that I didn't bother to even skim through) of people discussing/arguing over something or other
But more importantly, Leon is a redhead.
me likey :>
But more importantly, Leon is a redhead.
me likey :>
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Skimming through those walls of text I don't think anyone mentioned the fact that Leon's decision to make segregation even deeper and stronger as a solution to prevent what happened to her happening to anyone else is completely retarded. I would've assumed a person that was raised with a mother and father from different cultures would think it'd be better for everyone to de-segregate and start integrating and mingling peacefully, which mirrored her experience in her household. It's inevitable for more couples to take part in the forbidden love between touwan and westian, like we see with Romio and Juliet and even Romio's mother, so Leon's solution is bullshit and is purely made to be another hurdle for R & J to overcome. In reality, given that Leon seems to be the smart calculating type, the natural conclusion should be for her to be fully on board with Romio's plan.
I felt that her hate and decision to be so forced that it ruined her character, taking me right out of any interest I had and actually made me laugh at how stupid she is to think her segregation will solve anything.
I felt that her hate and decision to be so forced that it ruined her character, taking me right out of any interest I had and actually made me laugh at how stupid she is to think her segregation will solve anything.
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I know I'm a couple of years late but holy shit Yautja's an incredible and consistent stick in the mud in these comment boxes. I don't want to know what drove him to read a series he clearly hated for both actual and artificial "waaaaa it's too tropey and cliched" reasons.
As for my take on the whole kidnapping and Leon's backstory, I do think it could've been done better. Ultimately, I get what the author was going for in both her reason to act and think this way, and I don't really mind her mom getting kidnapped out (though Grandma forcing her to be married off to a Duke is an eyebrow-raiser, wouldn't that slightly damage the family rep?) but I dunno how she thinks fighting angry segregationist by being an angrier, even crazier segregationist is gonna help keep other instances like hers from happening.
As for my take on the whole kidnapping and Leon's backstory, I do think it could've been done better. Ultimately, I get what the author was going for in both her reason to act and think this way, and I don't really mind her mom getting kidnapped out (though Grandma forcing her to be married off to a Duke is an eyebrow-raiser, wouldn't that slightly damage the family rep?) but I dunno how she thinks fighting angry segregationist by being an angrier, even crazier segregationist is gonna help keep other instances like hers from happening.
I hate this the most. My entire body is trembling. Using women as pawns, forcing them to marry. What is this world we live in, where a story is so painfully real that tears are streaming down my face. It's not really the story that I'm so emotional about. It's how this is still being used in the real world. What the hell even is marriage. Is it simply a tool for the rich to get richer? What is caste and feudalism. Why do we still live in the arbitrary beliefs set about by our ancestors that always reached for more, that reached for a meaning. Ugg I think quarantine has pushed me to the edge and this toppled me over. Sad music I'm playing probably doesn't help nor does my current position agewise. God, I wonder if we really can change the world. Anyway I think I've calmed down a little. I can't really blame Leon for her plan. It's by no means a good one, but to have the trauma of your mother taken from you and forced to marry another man is unspeakable. It's up to Romeo and Juliet to get her back to her senses. And hopefully change their cruel, cruel world.
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@Archit12 Oh please, men have it so much worse. Women are the cause for such systems. Read history.
In fact, history is repeating, and such times will be returning soon.
Marriage was originally used as a binding. Women use to value marriage as men could not get out of it without bring reprimanded.
In our modern times, marriage is now used by women, to abuse men. Men are avoiding marriage now due to this abuse, which is becoming common knowledge with statistics to back it up.
2000 years ago, there was no welfare systems like we have now. Nor was there automation and other technology that we have now. Women willingly went into marriage because they could not work or express power as men can.
The society/government back then would force a man to remember his vows and provide for the woman/women when married while also forcing the women to keep the vow.
However, now the government forces a man to keep his vow, but gives pass to the woman.
Can you imagine the trauma to have your father taken from you while your mother goes and betrays your father? It's unspeakable. In fact it's an atrocity that will lead to war.
As for the other commenters, we see Leon's personality in many HAPAs today. Not just HAPAs, but also what some Black Americans call "light skins".
Yautja is right in certain aspects, the story and setting don't match up. This backstory/history of Leon is forced, and doesn't feel genuine to anybody that was expecting a good story backed without any overly forced tropes and cliches.
Regardless of the authors intent, the replication and parallels are overblown but better than most plots/motives nonetheless. I applaud thee.
In fact, history is repeating, and such times will be returning soon.
Marriage was originally used as a binding. Women use to value marriage as men could not get out of it without bring reprimanded.
In our modern times, marriage is now used by women, to abuse men. Men are avoiding marriage now due to this abuse, which is becoming common knowledge with statistics to back it up.
2000 years ago, there was no welfare systems like we have now. Nor was there automation and other technology that we have now. Women willingly went into marriage because they could not work or express power as men can.
The society/government back then would force a man to remember his vows and provide for the woman/women when married while also forcing the women to keep the vow.
However, now the government forces a man to keep his vow, but gives pass to the woman.
Can you imagine the trauma to have your father taken from you while your mother goes and betrays your father? It's unspeakable. In fact it's an atrocity that will lead to war.
As for the other commenters, we see Leon's personality in many HAPAs today. Not just HAPAs, but also what some Black Americans call "light skins".
Yautja is right in certain aspects, the story and setting don't match up. This backstory/history of Leon is forced, and doesn't feel genuine to anybody that was expecting a good story backed without any overly forced tropes and cliches.
Regardless of the authors intent, the replication and parallels are overblown but better than most plots/motives nonetheless. I applaud thee.
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@Randomguy01
Care to source that?
I honestly don't think that's true. For example, India's marriage system is fucked in the fact that women forced to marry men against their own will. If they refused, they were beat and disowned. If they didn't have male children, the child gets aborted until a male is finally produced. You say women attempt marriage as binding. Although that may be the case in some scenarios, traditional societies especially emphasize men as the dominant role. This is true even in modern states where you see the subservient housewife troupe still being a prevalent trend in areas like Suburban America.
Regarding your 2000 years ago analogy, I wouldn't exactly call marriage willing on the woman's side. You say that they went into marriage because they didn't have the agency to work and express power. This is true in the fact that ancient societies were quite patriarchal, however it's because of those reasons that it isn't willing. Not all women go into a marriage because they want to, but because they have to. And, arranged marriages by the family also takes place, even more so in the ancient times in Rome and China.
You say that in modern society, the governments force the man to keep the vow and give the pass to women. Once again, I'd like a source on that. Even if that's true, in many situations, it a case of domestic violence. Don't say men have it worse because we definitely don't.
Look at me writing an essay on a manga website lol
Care to source that?
I honestly don't think that's true. For example, India's marriage system is fucked in the fact that women forced to marry men against their own will. If they refused, they were beat and disowned. If they didn't have male children, the child gets aborted until a male is finally produced. You say women attempt marriage as binding. Although that may be the case in some scenarios, traditional societies especially emphasize men as the dominant role. This is true even in modern states where you see the subservient housewife troupe still being a prevalent trend in areas like Suburban America.
Regarding your 2000 years ago analogy, I wouldn't exactly call marriage willing on the woman's side. You say that they went into marriage because they didn't have the agency to work and express power. This is true in the fact that ancient societies were quite patriarchal, however it's because of those reasons that it isn't willing. Not all women go into a marriage because they want to, but because they have to. And, arranged marriages by the family also takes place, even more so in the ancient times in Rome and China.
You say that in modern society, the governments force the man to keep the vow and give the pass to women. Once again, I'd like a source on that. Even if that's true, in many situations, it a case of domestic violence. Don't say men have it worse because we definitely don't.
Look at me writing an essay on a manga website lol
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