Kiyo in Kyoto: From the Maiko House
- Thread starter MangaDex
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i really like this manga, but i also have a lot of doubts about it. one - is kiyo getting paid? she works nonstop for 10+ hours a day, hard physical labor too. I somewhat understand the principle of maikos not making money, as they are being "trained" (although even that is kinda shady imo) but it seems basically like slavery for her to be the cook of the house like that.
two - i know that maiko/geiko culture isn't prostitution but they are certainly paid escorts at the least. the manga shows us that kiyu and other maiko chose that life when they were just 13! do young girls in japan really sign up to live the lives of geisha (living away from family, extremely regimented lifestyle, no cellphones, possible sex work)? That seems crazy to me, but maybe I just don't get it.
two - i know that maiko/geiko culture isn't prostitution but they are certainly paid escorts at the least. the manga shows us that kiyu and other maiko chose that life when they were just 13! do young girls in japan really sign up to live the lives of geisha (living away from family, extremely regimented lifestyle, no cellphones, possible sex work)? That seems crazy to me, but maybe I just don't get it.
MD@Home
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So... when are they gonna give Kiyo a cart to carry all her grocery?
Also @Submarina your questions are super valid and as far as I can tell the comic has the youngest ones set at 16 but your questions are still valid and disturbing and I really don't know what to think about it...
Edit: I looked it up on wikipedia, it turns out that in modern day at least, the maiko (apprentice geisha) starts at around 17 or 18, some as young as 15. Japan labor laws prevent them recruiting from younger (?). Also, these girls serve as apprentice rather than students, so the okiya (the house) pays for room and board, outfit, food, and education. In turn when they go out to perform at night the payment they would receive is given to the okiya until such time that their loan is paid off.
This still doesn't explain Kiyo though.
Also @Submarina your questions are super valid and as far as I can tell the comic has the youngest ones set at 16 but your questions are still valid and disturbing and I really don't know what to think about it...
Edit: I looked it up on wikipedia, it turns out that in modern day at least, the maiko (apprentice geisha) starts at around 17 or 18, some as young as 15. Japan labor laws prevent them recruiting from younger (?). Also, these girls serve as apprentice rather than students, so the okiya (the house) pays for room and board, outfit, food, and education. In turn when they go out to perform at night the payment they would receive is given to the okiya until such time that their loan is paid off.
This still doesn't explain Kiyo though.
Fed-Kun's army
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@Submarina @UncleBenny Why wouldn't Kiyo get paid? All the caterers in other houses are surely paid, and she is of working age and not studying as a maiko. I'm sure she gets a salary. I feel it's not mentioned because it's not a point of this manga.
MD@Home
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@Submarina It's weird, since on the other hand it's a comfy slice of life manga but on the other there's the side with older men as young girls' "patrons" (and the frequent male guests of Momoko) which always leaves me with a strange feeling.
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Y'all... this is a feel-good slice of life manga, at the end of it all, Kiyo will be happy without Koyama-sensei mentioning her salary even once lol
In-universe, the okiya's okaa-san seems like a genuine and upstanding person, I doubt she would even think of underpaying Kiyo.
Also I made a monster of an explanation re: maiko and geiko and their relationship to sex work:
@Submarina - Re: choosing being a maiko at a young age:
@MrBeaver - Re: older male patrons:
In-universe, the okiya's okaa-san seems like a genuine and upstanding person, I doubt she would even think of underpaying Kiyo.
Also I made a monster of an explanation re: maiko and geiko and their relationship to sex work:
For those concerned, geiko and maiko are entertainers, that's all, not even paid escorts. They dance, sing, play music, they make conversation with the patrons of the tea house, and play games - nothing more. Geiko and maiko from Kyoto (the manga's setting) do not engage in sex work. Also, mizuage does not exist in the modern day, so there's no danger for Momohana of that either.
The Westerner's misconception that geiko perform sex work comes from regular prostitutes marketing themselves as geiko towards Allied occupation soldiers. Plus, geiko have historically been associated with oiran (courtesans, probably the actual closest thing to a paid escort at the time, but even then, they're like... extra. They can be differentiated by their more elaborate kimono, hairstyle, and the knot of their obi sitting at the front).
Geiko and maiko play the music while oiran conduct their, uh...business. Nowadays, oiran don't even conduct business (the most I've seen/heard of them are in processions/historical recreations) so now it's just all music and no funtimes.
IIRC in the modern day there are other geiko districts that allow geiko to sleep with patrons that they like, but I highly doubt that any of the districts in Kyoto (very old, very prestigious, very traditional) would allow their own geiko to do that.
The Westerner's misconception that geiko perform sex work comes from regular prostitutes marketing themselves as geiko towards Allied occupation soldiers. Plus, geiko have historically been associated with oiran (courtesans, probably the actual closest thing to a paid escort at the time, but even then, they're like... extra. They can be differentiated by their more elaborate kimono, hairstyle, and the knot of their obi sitting at the front).
Geiko and maiko play the music while oiran conduct their, uh...business. Nowadays, oiran don't even conduct business (the most I've seen/heard of them are in processions/historical recreations) so now it's just all music and no funtimes.
IIRC in the modern day there are other geiko districts that allow geiko to sleep with patrons that they like, but I highly doubt that any of the districts in Kyoto (very old, very prestigious, very traditional) would allow their own geiko to do that.
@Submarina - Re: choosing being a maiko at a young age:
I'd say it depends on the girls' goals; Fukunae (retired maiko from Kyoto) mentions in this documentary her own motivations for starting her own training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oui8lWwKHd4
I've heard from a lot of interviews that the girls who enter the hanamachi view being a geiko as an art form. From that perspective, it's not that different from a little girl wanting becoming a so-called 'regular' entertainer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oui8lWwKHd4
I've heard from a lot of interviews that the girls who enter the hanamachi view being a geiko as an art form. From that perspective, it's not that different from a little girl wanting becoming a so-called 'regular' entertainer.
@MrBeaver - Re: older male patrons:
I get the concern. However, it seems like people who understand the culture are less likely to sexually harass geiko. Regular patrons usually understand that geiko are selling an illusion of companionship. Geiko can flirt all they want, but it's implicitly known that even though they act like that, they're not actually interested. Probably the biggest threat in terms of sexual harrassment are foreigners and tourists who do not understand the culture and don't care to look any deeper.
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Kiyo is definitely getting paid, guys. But there might be a large number of reasons she doesn’t seem to have a lot of money.
In Japan, wages may be less if the company you are working for provides room and board, but Kiyo may also be expected to pay back her time where she studied to be a Maiko (this is why the maiko only get pocket money too instead of their full wages, when they become full fledge geisha/geiko, they will earn their full wages but will have to buy their own clothes, equipment, training, etc.).
She may also be sending money back to her grandma or her grandmother and father made a condition that a certain percentage of her wages has to go into a savings account for when she gets older or something. When I first started working as a teenage, my dad made me do the same thing.
In Japan, wages may be less if the company you are working for provides room and board, but Kiyo may also be expected to pay back her time where she studied to be a Maiko (this is why the maiko only get pocket money too instead of their full wages, when they become full fledge geisha/geiko, they will earn their full wages but will have to buy their own clothes, equipment, training, etc.).
She may also be sending money back to her grandma or her grandmother and father made a condition that a certain percentage of her wages has to go into a savings account for when she gets older or something. When I first started working as a teenage, my dad made me do the same thing.
@MrBeaver @estELLE
i did some research since my previous comment and wanted to share. It is true that geiko are not synonymous with sex workers (ie they do not have to sleep with anyone) in the modern day, though this distinction was more murky in the past. But even in the modern day, they may have patrons (danna), with whom they have sex, often married men. Of course, this isn't a neccesity, but danna will pay for the geiko's expensive wardrobe (kimonos), hairpins, etc. This might explain the abundance of male visitors to Momoko's home. It reminds me of escort culture in the west, where older men will pay young girls just to eat dinner with them/just for the pleasure of their company.
(More reading: http://www.lizadalby.com/LD/newgeisha2.html - quite well researched with mostly Japanese sources). (Another well researched site : http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat20/sub131/item710.html . If this info is correct, then this manga is VERY accurate... Everything from the mini sandwiches that don't touch the lips, to needing to have a Kyoto accent, to waking up late if you were out late... it's all mentioned)
On money - I think @roseofquartz probably has a strong theory about her pay being put towards paying back her loans (maiko are indentured). If not, I hope she's getting paid...
i did some research since my previous comment and wanted to share. It is true that geiko are not synonymous with sex workers (ie they do not have to sleep with anyone) in the modern day, though this distinction was more murky in the past. But even in the modern day, they may have patrons (danna), with whom they have sex, often married men. Of course, this isn't a neccesity, but danna will pay for the geiko's expensive wardrobe (kimonos), hairpins, etc. This might explain the abundance of male visitors to Momoko's home. It reminds me of escort culture in the west, where older men will pay young girls just to eat dinner with them/just for the pleasure of their company.
(More reading: http://www.lizadalby.com/LD/newgeisha2.html - quite well researched with mostly Japanese sources). (Another well researched site : http://factsanddetails.com/japan/cat20/sub131/item710.html . If this info is correct, then this manga is VERY accurate... Everything from the mini sandwiches that don't touch the lips, to needing to have a Kyoto accent, to waking up late if you were out late... it's all mentioned)
On money - I think @roseofquartz probably has a strong theory about her pay being put towards paying back her loans (maiko are indentured). If not, I hope she's getting paid...
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Their love triangle kinda frustrates me because Kenta practically treats Sumire as afterthought but cares deeply for Kiyo, and Kiyo doesn't even care that much about Kenta but is very devoted towards Sumire. And Sumire... loves them both.
I wonder when Sumire graduates from the Maiko manor and becomes independent Geiko, will Kiyo keep working there as caterer? If not, then what will she do, since she's not educated and her only working experience is being a caterer in the manor. She won't tag along with Sumire forever, will she?
I wonder when Sumire graduates from the Maiko manor and becomes independent Geiko, will Kiyo keep working there as caterer? If not, then what will she do, since she's not educated and her only working experience is being a caterer in the manor. She won't tag along with Sumire forever, will she?
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I’m getting more and more annoyed by mangka pushing Suu’s infatuation with Kenta. I’m not big on love triangles and unless this ends in an OT3, I’m genuinely not interested. Kenta’s obsessed with Kiyo, Kiyo likes Kenta but Suu comes first for her and Suu adores both these people but is aware that Kenta has no feelings for her and that Kiyo is not romantically interested in Kenta.
I would’ve been more okay with it if it was something that was established closer to the beginning as opposed to 80+ chapters in, or established that Suu’s feelings for Kenta are recent.
Also, I feel like there’s other stories the mangaka could be focusing on. Like Kiyo or Suu’s parents. Where’s Kiyo’s dad? How old was Kiyo when her mum died? Why didn’t Suu’s parents come for her maiko debut? Or other maiko stories to tell.
I would’ve been more okay with it if it was something that was established closer to the beginning as opposed to 80+ chapters in, or established that Suu’s feelings for Kenta are recent.
Also, I feel like there’s other stories the mangaka could be focusing on. Like Kiyo or Suu’s parents. Where’s Kiyo’s dad? How old was Kiyo when her mum died? Why didn’t Suu’s parents come for her maiko debut? Or other maiko stories to tell.
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TBH the story would be better without Kenta in it. Kiyo and Suu should just get together. They're practically a couple already.
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I love every character and enjoy seeing their everyday life. Love the art style and the story. Hope we get more colored pages for the food and the Maiko scenes.
I thought this was going for a triangle love drama but it still got it’s fluffy and heartwarming feelings (very rare to see) which makes this manga much more precious. Therefore I think having Kenta is needed since we can see Kiyo and Suu gradually mature and make their own choices.
Dex-chan lover
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@KristaDLee This is called friendship. This sometimes happens in real life, just informing.
@roseofquartz Probably the author was simply not interested in the romance subplot when they started this manga, but now they see it as a way of further developing the story. It is even possible that they didn’t think much about it at all, but editor simply said that romance would attract new audience. But I agree on the bad timing, if it had a noticeable focus from the beginning, then maybe I wouldn't have to read the whining of all those yuri shippers.
@Esasaeriri If this is a big problem, then they just have to settle nearby or even rent an apartment together. I know that even close friends often break up in adulthood, but I think the two are close enough to break up just because Suu will be living elsewhere someday.
@roseofquartz Probably the author was simply not interested in the romance subplot when they started this manga, but now they see it as a way of further developing the story. It is even possible that they didn’t think much about it at all, but editor simply said that romance would attract new audience. But I agree on the bad timing, if it had a noticeable focus from the beginning, then maybe I wouldn't have to read the whining of all those yuri shippers.
@Esasaeriri If this is a big problem, then they just have to settle nearby or even rent an apartment together. I know that even close friends often break up in adulthood, but I think the two are close enough to break up just because Suu will be living elsewhere someday.
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