Kono Koi wo Hoshi ni wa Negawanai - Vol. 5 Ch. 23

[1idd0kun]

The only relationship we really see of Eri's is Kyou, and I maintain that was a special case because she never had those feelings for him,

She never had those feelings for anyone, so Kyou is not a special case. it's the same as all the other people she ever dated.

and dated him because he declared he'd never get upset if she prioritized Fuyuki over him

She literally said that no matter how cool or kind the guys she dated before were, she wasn't interested in them at the start. Meaning she dated them simply because they confessed. Just like she did with Kyou. She claims that eventually she started seeing them in a romantic light, but she also said she never fell in love with them. That doesn't sound that different from her relationship with Kyo.

So taking that relationship as a barometer for how it's always been for Eri, feels like a skewed singular sample.

I think using him as an example of how she deals with all her relationships and the emotional range she's capable of is plenty valid. If anything, the fact Kyo was a dear friend to her instead of a random man like all her previous relationships should make it even more likely to have Eri more emotionally involved in this relationship than her previous ones. Yet, she wasn't emotionally involved at all. Or sexually involved for that matter.

There's no indication that Eri wouldn't want intimacy with Fuyuki. and Fuyuki is important enough to Eri that I have to imagine she'll change for her to make sure she stays Fuyuki's #1, and it wouldn't be done out of resignation.

She literally tells Fuyuki she's not interested in kissing her, and while she's sure she will change in some way with time, she never claims she will be able to fall in love with her. She's hopeful, but she does admit she might not be able to fall in love, and is aware that might kill the relationship.

And that's kind of the take away here. It's fine to be hopeful but we can't ignore the obstacles both of them know they will have to face.

 

[1idd0kun]

It makes me believe that their relationship can be built not on Eri trying to match Fuyuki's attraction and appease her just to keep her around, but finding a middle-ground where Fuyuki can be open about her feelings (and not doom their relationship before ever trying) and they can understand each other.

For what it's worth, Eri does tell Fuyuki that it's okay for Fuyuki to be selfish and even cruel. To me that's Eri signiling to Fuyuki that she doesn't have to hold back. That Eri is willing to "put out" as it were. Whether Fuyuki would take her up on that offer, I wouldn't know. But at least Eri seems to realize that Fuyuki is pretty thirty so maybe a "middle-ground" kinda deal isn't a viable solution.

 

[TheLostLight]

Also, a semi-unrelated thought: I think a decent gauge for how you feel about where this story is going is how you feel about Yukiko's Room for Two / Futaribeya. While this story is about dealing with feelings too big to manage for too long a time, that is a much lower-stakes story about people who are simply trying to get their needs met, and I consistently see people who want it to move like a typical romcom / romance story being disappointed with the fact that the story ends much how it started, with Sakurako and Kasumi being BFFs and content with whatever the hell their situationship is, living with the assumption that they're basically going to remain joined at the hip for life. I trust Yukiko to be honestly representing the feelings of the two of them, and one of the things I find most resonant and touching about that story is that the two of them refuse to put a name on their relationship and that both are happy with the way they feel about each other. That really is how it is sometimes, especially for people who have wandered off the path of cisheteronormative expectations.

Except that's not entirely true... At least, that interpretation of the story would've been a lot easier to defend if it wasn't for the special chapter 3 of volume 9 in particular. But in that chapter Sakurako explicitly brings up the idea of them dating, and then immediately regrets speaking her mind to Kasumi. On top of that, we see Sakurako be possessive and get jealous of other people that approach Kasumi, and she shows sexual attraction as well (in particular there's a chapter where she gets drunk and asks Kasumi to sit on her face). This all paints a picture of Sakurako wanting more out of their relationship but avoiding actually talking about it out of consideration for Kasumi and her detachedness, just as Sakurako always has been shown to go out of her way to serve and be considerate of Kasumi to extreme extents.

Honestly, when I tried to remember how the series ended, I seemed to remember that Sakurako's question at the end of volume 9 gets almost completely forgotten and dismissed by Kasumi. That sounded absolutely crazy to me in my head, so I had to go back and re-read the ending to confirm. And while technically that kind of is what happens textually (Kasumi has one line where she tells Sakurako she's "seriously thinking" about it, and then it never gets brought up again in text), I kind of think the subtext is that they started officially dating offscreen? I think that's what chapter 74 is basically meant to imply... That being said, I do think the message is supposed to be something along the lines of, "the label doesn't matter, what matters is their relationship and the life they create together," but personally I kind of find the message to fall a bit flat, given the aspects of Sakurako mentioned above. In fact, chapter 74 is kind of a great example of why defining their boundaries and expectations is important for their relationship: Kasumi starts getting hit on and Sakurako only happens to find out about it and intervenes due to happenstance, after becoming jealous.

Now, to be honest, I just saw Futaribeya mentioned and wanted an excuse to talk about it , but to bring it back to this manga so my comment isn't too far off topic, I honestly kind of find Sakurako and Kasumi's dynamic more toxic than Fuyuki and Eri's up to this point? As crazy at that sounds... It is an apt comparison, as they both have a very similar issue where Fuyuki/Sakurako clearly have feelings for Eri/Kasumi, but avoid bringing it up in order to maintain the intimate relationship they've already achieved with them. But I think the key difference for me is that Eri is explicitly lead to believe that their relationship is the way it is by Fuyuki, and Fuyuki doesn't push past the boundaries of that established relationship, even if she wishes she could. Eri and Fuyuki have had a defined relationship with clear expectations and boundaries, and once it has been communicated that Fuyuki wants different expectations and boundaries from their relationship, Eri seriously considers them and communicates openly with Fuyuki about how their relationship can progress from that point. In contrast, Sakurako and Kasumi have a relationship with no clear boundaries or expectations, and Sakurako regularly hints at wanting more but Kasumi never seriously considers those hints to have any deeper meaning (until arguably the very end of the story). Not to paint Kasumi as the "bad guy" of her story either. I think that similar to my argument for Fuyuki and Eri's predicament, both Sakurako and Kasumi have partial responsibility for this disconnect and it's largely a fault of communication.

That being said, there is the argument that Sakurako and Kasumi's relationship is consistently portrayed as positive and fulfilling for both of the characters. I'd argue that there are numerous examples where these lack of definitions cause Sakurako distress, but one could also argue that it's mostly just played off for laughs and Sakurako is content just being with Kasumi in an undefined "situationship". While that may be how the tone of the manga portrays it, I just have a hard time fully buying into it. While I feel confident that things would work out for Eri and Fuyuki in the end, I don't really get that same feeling of confidence from imagining Sakurako and Kasumi's hypothetical continued relationship, at least in what we're shown of it. Rereading those last few chapters, it does feel like they probably do have moments of open communication between chapters, but we're never shown that or how they actually deal with their expectations the same way we're being explicitly shown Eri and Fuyuki doing that in this chapter. You could argue that I'm silly to doubt the strength of their relationship when the manga only ever portrays is as strong and lasting, and that's fair, but it doesn't really change how it makes me feel reading it. Yukiko certainly tries to portray their unspoken arrangement as this profound relationship that could only be lessened by labels, but it doesn't convince me for whatever reason, and the framing itself seems to become inconsistent in a few key parts of the manga in my view.

Anyways, I'm sure that my takes are going to be pretty controversial if anyone bothers to read through it, but seeing Futaribeya mentioned unleashed a rant inside of me that I didn't even realize I had stored up. My bad

 

[Camy]

Except that's not entirely true... At least, that interpretation of the story would've been a lot easier to defend if it wasn't for the special chapter 3 of volume 9 in particular. But in that chapter Sakurako explicitly brings up the idea of them dating, and then immediately regrets speaking her mind to Kasumi. On top of that, we see Sakurako be possessive and get jealous of other people that approach Kasumi, and she shows sexual attraction as well (in particular there's a chapter where she gets drunk and asks Kasumi to sit on her face). This all paints a picture of Sakurako wanting more out of their relationship but avoiding actually talking about it out of consideration for Kasumi and her detachedness, just as Sakurako always has been shown to go out of her way to serve and be considerate of Kasumi to extreme extents.

Honestly, when I tried to remember how the series ended, I seemed to remember that Sakurako's question at the end of volume 9 gets almost completely forgotten and dismissed by Kasumi. That sounded absolutely crazy to me in my head, so I had to go back and re-read the ending to confirm. And while technically that kind of is what happens textually (Kasumi has one line where she tells Sakurako she's "seriously thinking" about it, and then it never gets brought up again in text), I kind of think the subtext is that they started officially dating offscreen? I think that's what chapter 74 is basically meant to imply... That being said, I do think the message is supposed to be something along the lines of, "the label doesn't matter, what matters is their relationship and the life they create together," but personally I kind of find the message to fall a bit flat, given the aspects of Sakurako mentioned above. In fact, chapter 74 is kind of a great example of why defining their boundaries and expectations is important for their relationship: Kasumi starts getting hit on and Sakurako only happens to find out about it and intervenes due to happenstance, after becoming jealous.

Now, to be honest, I just saw Futaribeya mentioned and wanted an excuse to talk about it , but to bring it back to this manga so my comment isn't too far off topic, I honestly kind of find Sakurako and Kasumi's dynamic more toxic than Fuyuki and Eri's up to this point? As crazy at that sounds... It is an apt comparison, as they both have a very similar issue where Fuyuki/Sakurako clearly have feelings for Eri/Kasumi, but avoid bringing it up in order to maintain the intimate relationship they've already achieved with them. But I think the key difference for me is that Eri is explicitly lead to believe that their relationship is the way it is by Fuyuki, and Fuyuki doesn't push past the boundaries of that established relationship, even if she wishes she could. Eri and Fuyuki have had a defined relationship with clear expectations and boundaries, and once it has been communicated that Fuyuki wants different expectations and boundaries from their relationship, Eri seriously considers them and communicates openly with Fuyuki about how their relationship can progress from that point. In contrast, Sakurako and Kasumi have a relationship with no clear boundaries or expectations, and Sakurako regularly hints at wanting more but Kasumi never seriously considers those hints to have any deeper meaning (until arguably the very end of the story). Not to paint Kasumi as the "bad guy" of her story either. I think that similar to my argument for Fuyuki and Eri's predicament, both Sakurako and Kasumi have partial responsibility for this disconnect and it's largely a fault of communication.

That being said, there is the argument that Sakurako and Kasumi's relationship is consistently portrayed as positive and fulfilling for both of the characters. I'd argue that there are numerous examples where these lack of definitions cause Sakurako distress, but one could also argue that it's mostly just played off for laughs and Sakurako is content just being with Kasumi in an undefined "situationship". While that may be how the tone of the manga portrays it, I just have a hard time fully buying into it. While I feel confident that things would work out for Eri and Fuyuki in the end, I don't really get that same feeling of confidence from imagining Sakurako and Kasumi's hypothetical continued relationship, at least in what we're shown of it. Rereading those last few chapters, it does feel like they probably do have moments of open communication between chapters, but we're never shown that or how they actually deal with their expectations the same way we're being explicitly shown Eri and Fuyuki doing that in this chapter. You could argue that I'm silly to doubt the strength of their relationship when the manga only ever portrays is as strong and lasting, and that's fair, but it doesn't really change how it makes me feel reading it. Yukiko certainly tries to portray their unspoken arrangement as this profound relationship that could only be lessened by labels, but it doesn't convince me for whatever reason, and the framing itself seems to become inconsistent in a few key parts of the manga in my view.

Anyways, I'm sure that my takes are going to be pretty controversial if anyone bothers to read through it, but seeing Futaribeya mentioned unleashed a rant inside of me that I didn't even realize I had stored up. My bad

I just wanted to say I'm glad to see someone else felt the same way about Futaribeya. It left me with a rather... unpleasant feeling too and the message of "labels aren't important" fell flat completely for me, probably for the reason you mentioned, the lack of properly communicating their expectations. Not establishing their relationship properly (what ever it might be) felt like it caused constant issues that were overcome purely by chance or because the story wasn't willing to explore them further. Meanwhile it feels like Fuyuki and Eri navigated those possible issues rather well and I'm left feeling optimistic about them and wanting to cheer for them. Eri's handling of this whole situation has also made her one of my favorite character out of what I've read recently.

I'll stop there cause I could probably go on a long rant about Futaribeya too but your comment highlighted (and reminded me of) why I felt so bad after finishing it.

 

[UdenEmpati]

She never had those feelings for anyone, so Kyou is not a special case. it's the same as all the other people she ever dated.

She literally said that no matter how cool or kind the guys she dated before were, she wasn't interested in them at the start. Meaning she dated them simply because they confessed. Just like she did with Kyou. She claims that eventually she started seeing them in a romantic light, but she also said she never fell in love with them. That doesn't sound that different from her relationship with Kyo.

I think using him as an example of how she deals with all her relationships and the emotional range she's capable of is plenty valid. If anything, the fact Kyo was a dear friend to her instead of a random man like all her previous relationships should make it even more likely to have Eri more emotionally involved in this relationship than her previous ones. Yet, she wasn't emotionally involved at all. Or sexually involved for that matter.

She literally tells Fuyuki she's not interested in kissing her, and while she's sure she will change in some way with time, she never claims she will be able to fall in love with her. She's hopeful, but she does admit she might not be able to fall in love, and is aware that might kill the relationship.

And that's kind of the take away here. It's fine to be hopeful but we can't ignore the obstacles both of them know they will have to face.

I guess it comes down to whether you approach Eri's words in this chapter, compared to how she has felt about Fuyuki throughout their lives together, from an optimistic, pessimistic, or pragmatic angle.

I do understand that there's every chance this could fail; if I'm honest, that would almost make for a better ending based on the themes being presented, though I readily admit I wouldn't like it, simply appreciate it and respect the gumption of the author.

But even in Kyou's case, Eri's relationship with and feelings toward him are different. Eri's relationship with Fuyuki compared to everyone is different.

I also didn't really interpret her "just because you see someone in a romantic light, doesn't mean you'll fall in love" as she never did. The fact that line was written over the images of photographs, but the only two we can discern are Kyou, and the girl who confessed that Eri turned down, makes me think that those are to what she's referring to, and not all her relationships as a whole.

And again - every relationship she was in, Eri still put Fuyuki first. Fuyuki has been a through-line of importance for Eri from the start, to the point that it caused problems for her other relationships more than once - which, I think can be interpreted as meaning that if Eri didn't ever love any of her partners, it's because she was still more focused on Fuyuki, the entire time, because Fuyuki was and is all she needs to be happy.

So yes - it could fail, and Eri says as much. But maybe I've misread or misinterpreted your initial point in all this, because I also think it's better that they try, and not just give up at the start as Fuyuki had done before.
And I think that if Eri has a chance of going the distance with anyone, it would be Fuyuki, and as long as Fuyuki doesn't quash her feelings and hide her wants and needs, then they can be on the same page together and work it out as best they can.

 

[raineight]

Glad to see some old Eri-haters recanting.

I didn't really take Eri's "I always fall in love with someone if they're in love with me, trust" thing at face value,

Author: "The sky was blue."
Readers: "What did she mean by this??? Was it green??

I jest! Though I'm also reminded of RPG writer Rebecca Borgstrom, who had a reputation for being hard to understand mostly because readers kept assuming her weird stuff wasn't meant literally, when it was.

 

[eFuruha]

i love fuyuki with senpai, fck this shit

 

[raineight]

Oh, on the Futaribeya tangent: yeah, I think it got muddled. As I've said elsewhere, I didn't need to see them being explicit, but it would have been nice to have some clarity as to what was going on. Was Sakurako getting sexual satisfaction? Were they just bonded friends with one-sided frustration? We'd get the very occasional sort-of kiss, and Kasumi blushing and refusing to say who her first was with, and they've been sleeping in the same bed since high school. But we also got Sakurako's late "but what are we, really?", which took things from "the readers don't know what's going on in private" to "the characters don't know what's going on, after all this time." It felt like terminal reluctance to commit on the author's part, to the detriment of having a coherent ending.

 

[UdenEmpati]

Author: "The sky was blue."
Readers: "What did she mean by this??? Was it green??

I jest! Though I'm also reminded of RPG writer Rebecca Borgstrom, who had a reputation for being hard to understand mostly because readers kept assuming her weird stuff wasn't meant literally, when it was.

It'd be one thing if Eri was a known unreliable character who said one thing but did another.
But throughout it all, she'd always face people straight on, and the only reason she hurt Fuyuki so badly for so long is because Fuyuki never told Eri she was in love.

Eri's very up front, even in her internal monologues, that she just doesn't get romance and doesn't develop feelings on her own, but that she'll notice and reciprocate when it's actually expressed to her. I said it before, but if anything her "issue", if you wanna call it that, sounds less like a sexual/romantic orientation thing, and more like a social-development disorder like something on the autism spectrum. I'm not gonna try and guess or make assertions because I know fuckall about the intricacies of that, but that's my take, at the very least.
Yes, she rejected that one girl who confessed, but even then Eri wasn't the one who said it was because it was a girl confessing; it was everyone around her, Fuyuki included, who made that assumption and lead to Eri's being ostracized, and Fuyuki fully shutting her feelings inside out of fear of her own rejection.

But she's still self-aware, and she knows she cares deeply and desperately for Fuyuki, and has all this time.
Everything she's said, I think absolutely should be taken at face value - up to admitting that maybe this will fall apart for them, but she cares too much about Fuyuki to not at least try to make it work.

And I'm not really certain what's lead some readers to think that her words should be viewed as contrarian or misleading.

 

[TheLostLight]

Yes, she rejected that one girl who confessed, but even then Eri wasn't the one who said it was because it was a girl confessing; it was everyone around her, Fuyuki included, who made that assumption and lead to Eri's being ostracized, and Fuyuki fully shutting her feelings inside out of fear of her own rejection.

Fuyuki never really made this assumption though. She says she knew that the stories were bullshit. And then in ch.22 she flat out states that she had considered confessing before but never did out of fear of the possibility of being rejected. Simple as that.

---

Also for everyone reading way too much into Eri's, "I never thought about kissing you" line, go reread chapter 17; it will be enlightening. She obviously means it in the most literal way possible, as in, "I just never spent time thinking about it" because otherwise she would be contradicting herself, and I don't think that was the intention.

 

[UdenEmpati]

Fuyuki never really made this assumption though. She says she knew that the stories were bullshit. And then in ch.22 she flat out states that she had considered confessing before but never did out of fear of the possibility of being rejected. Simple as that.

---

That might be a holdover of my view on her reasons from before I really re-read and properly digested everything, and it just got held onto and not filtered out of my brain, yeah.

 

[yuushikey]

ok..i'll

Or... tell her to read this series, it's a win-win solution.

 

[dumbziri]

Glad to see some old Eri-haters recanting.



Author: "The sky was blue."
Readers: "What did she mean by this??? Was it green??

I jest! Though I'm also reminded of RPG writer Rebecca Borgstrom, who had a reputation for being hard to understand mostly because readers kept assuming her weird stuff wasn't meant literally, when it was.

I mean, I will point out that she never caught feelings for Kyou despite saying that So that's one strike against that statement, and we don't see what her other relationships were like. To me it comes off more like an assurance from someone who doesn't want people to lash out at her for not returning their feelings + someone who isn't fully in touch with being ace. Maybe I put too much importance on her incident with the middle school girl, but it feels like that was this big turning point where she became meek and willing to go along with what others wanted/expected, except when it came to her Fuyuki.

 

[UdenEmpati]

that was this big turning point where she became meek and willing to go along with what others wanted/expected, except when it came to her Fuyuki.

Emphasis mine.

Hence, why I maintain that this situation is wholly different for them both, compared to everything we've seen from Eri up to this point - however anyone wishes to interpret all of that other stuff, Eri's relationship and history with Fuyuki means that this is a categorically different scenario altogether.

 

[dumbziri]

Emphasis mine.

Hence, why I maintain that this situation is wholly different for them both, compared to everything we've seen from Eri up to this point - however anyone wishes to interpret all of that other stuff, Eri's relationship and history with Fuyuki means that this is a categorically different scenario altogether.

Yeah, definitely! Like I said, no idea where this will go. Maybe it'll be different with Fuyuki, maybe Fuyuki will give her room to find out she's not obligated to return those feelings in the exact same way.

 

[DumFck]

"Just keep loving me and give attention to me. Even if it kills you inside. I might turn gay someday and return your feelings, you never know" <- this is what Eri essentially said.

a lot of simone biles doing crazy mental gymnastics to make that seems wholesome, aside from the supposed ace girl trying to fall in love with the intense lesbian girl yearning for an intense lesbian relationship, not all love is good for you, people

 

[raineight]

The maybe-ace girl whose sex life we don't actually know much about, other than that she doesn't feel attraction first.

 

[Rafalga]

a lot of simone biles doing crazy mental gymnastics to make that seems wholesome, aside from the supposed ace girl trying to fall in love with the intense lesbian girl yearning for an intense lesbian relationship, not all love is good for you, people

Yep, we are suppose to believe the one who had never felt romantic love in her life and always went with the flow even for sex suppose to wake up one day and love Fuyuki the way she needs / yearns / deserves. I would like to live in that dream world as well.

 

[Lulumelone]

a lot of simone biles doing crazy mental gymnastics to make that seems wholesome, aside from the supposed ace girl trying to fall in love with the intense lesbian girl yearning for an intense lesbian relationship, not all love is good for you, people

As much as we all love a surprise happy Chappy say gex ending, I’m inclined to agree.

The more I read this chapter the more of a sick feeling I get. Regardless of authors intention, I kept feeling like Fuyuki is being manipulated and she’s bang on that this kind of relationship just doesn’t work.

Eri knows the buttons to push and the words to say to wrap fuyuki around her fingers. “Trust me, I’ve never thought about being gay but… you definitely have a chance if we just stick it out 🤭”

Maybe if I was an idealistic teen or young adult but life just doesn’t work like this

 

[DumFck]

Eri knows the buttons to push and the words to say to wrap fuyuki around her fingers. “Trust me, I’ve never thought about being gay but… you definitely have a chance if we just stick it out 🤭”

i don't think eri had any ill intent in her actions, she didn't want to lose fuyuki and wanted to find a solution to prevent that. funny enough, the chapter could as well as go to the route of her rejecting fuyuki's feelings, the talking about how you need to love one thing first to let your world expand fitted so well, she did the first part of what her mother told her to do, but never went to the second part, a pitty she chose to implode her word. on that note, fuyuki has agency of her own actions, and she accepted eri's suggestion and we are in toxicville.

this kind of relationship just doesn’t work.

if fuyuki was someone well adjusted, eri proposal of dating would've been insulting. instead, fuyuki has low self steem, considerable self loath and is prone to keep things to herself until it's too much and she lashes out in a violent away. people's behaviour don't chance easily, so it's unlikely they will now have the best of comunication to figure it out the problems they will face. even in the best case of a healthy relationship between evolved people who don't share any of eri's or fuyuki's characteristics, comunication is hard, tiring and at last insuficient if these people's wants don't converge. eri wants to stay with fuyiki no matter how, if things depended sole on eri, it would actually work. but fuyuki wants a regular romantic relationship that involves enjoyment from both parts in the skinship area, which is unlikely to happen for eri, since in narrative terms she hasn't shown any interest in sex or anything related to it. the "with fuyuki will be different" is a stretch, pattern behaviour is about the agent of action and not the receiving one.

i can't see eri and fuyuki dating through nice lenses, to me, a possible outcome to eri and fuyuki and eri dating would be the same in the start of chapter 1: eri fine with whatever as long as she has fuyuki and fuyuki trying to make it work, trying to make eri happy, to give eri pleasure, not archiving it in the way fuyuki wanted/romanticized, leading fuyuki to self doubt, lowering her self steem, increasing her internalization of everything even with eri asking fuyuki if things are ok, until fuyuki outbursts out violently, again.

honestly people, strongly grabbing another's arm to the point it gets bruised is the second step to domestic violence, it escales quickly to more violent stuff, go away before that.

the author is a good one, but it's a manga, and there is manga absurdity where things become a caricature of itself, so we'll have to wait and see if the ending is a Ao3 route with eri and fuyuki living happily ever after.