Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka? - Ch. 69.2

[isoycrazy]

Thanks for the translation.

 

[groudonvert]

You make a valid point, sure, but here's a counter-point. This arc frustrates because she lost her powers, yes, but not from the perspective of "muh OP C got weaker, nuuuuu!" Instead, what irritates me about it instead is the feeling of "well what was the point of everything up until now, then?" To me, it feels like making all of her struggles and efforts up until now irrelevant, just cuz. All the fruits of her labor and all the progress and development has been rendered moot, and it can feel like there was no point in anything that happened up until now if it was all going to get removed anyway, even temporarily. Now only does it feel like it invalidates everything she has gone through to until this point, it also feels frustrating watching the main character do literally nothing. I understand your point of "it mirrors the beginning of the story thematically and is poetic" and I get that. But at least at the beginning of the story, she was actually still trying. She fought what she could and struggled and put in effort! The same can't really be said for the present MC. Artistically speaking, I get your point and don't necessarily disagree. But from an entertainment standpoint, it's not really all that interesting to have multiple chapters in a row where the main character could be replaced with a sack of potatoes and the plot would be almost entirely unaltered. It's not that entertaining to watch the character you're invested in and probably the main reason you're reading this manga just do absolutely nothing relevant.

TL,DR: I get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree, but I find it disingenuous to just write off people who don't like this as people who just want power fantasy with no depth or nuance, as there are certainly some legitimate reasons why this might be disliked.

This arc is supposed to developp side characters (mainly Kyouya and Sophia, but also a few others) that are relevant in the entire story. But since the manga decided to have a full focus on White, every side content is cut out.

But this arc has an importance for White's developpment. Since she's so weak that she can't do anything on her own, she has to rely on other characters, something she never did in her entire life. And one of these characters is someone that tried to kill her countless time before, with good reasons for that.

Now she's completely useless, but when she'll recover her powers, she'll become the wind that changes the world.

 

[groudonvert]

Man this whole thing feels weird compared to the WN. Wasn't Vampire-chan a young adult (or at least a teenager?) in the WN for her fight against Wrath-kun? Having her fight as a baby just feels weird.

Her fight happens earlier in the Light Novel.

 

[DerpyTheSpy]

IS
THAT
A
HECKING
JOJO
REFERENCE?

N I G E R U N D A Y O ! ! ! ! ! !

 

[Kanade0021]

Thanks for the translation!

 

[Figtree22]

Page 8 is so fucking funny

 

[Shinkutsuki]

Thanks for the chapter

 

[Gotham2298]

Don't you need to develop (level up) Anger into Wrath by relying on it frequently? That seems to suggest he has an aggressive, violent, and quick to anger personality.

They’ll get into his backstory soon,
He was a goblin with a unique skill that allowed him to make weapons for his tribe, which got the attention of nearby humans. One human put him under mind control, and forced him into making more weapons. He drifted in and out of consciousness, and eventually realised he was made to eat his own little sister. Losing all hope and filled with a rage that couldn’t be contained, he acquired a skill that would allow him to break free and kill his captive at the cost of his free will.

 

[groudonvert]

They’ll get into his backstory soon,
he was a goblin with a unique skill that allowed him to make weapons for his tribe, which got the attention of nearby humans. One human put him under mind control, and forced him into making more weapons. He drifted in and out of consciousness, and eventually realised he was made to eat his own little sister. Losing all hope and filled with a rage that couldn’t be contained, he acquired a skill that would allow him to break free and kill his captive at the cost of his free will.

His backstory was supposed to be done in parallel of the main group's story.

 

[ForTheJerusalem]

Man this entire story is such a mess with how manga decided to cut most of it.

 

[DLRevan]

You make a valid point, sure, but here's a counter-point. This arc frustrates because she lost her powers, yes, but not from the perspective of "muh OP MC got weaker, nuuuuu!" Instead, what irritates me about it instead is the feeling of "well what was the point of everything up until now, then?" To me, it feels like making all of her struggles and efforts up until now irrelevant, just cuz. All the fruits of her labor and all the progress and development has been rendered moot, and it can feel like there was no point in anything that happened up until now if it was all going to get removed anyway, even temporarily. Now only does it feel like it invalidates everything she has gone through to until this point, it also feels frustrating watching the main character do literally nothing. I understand your point of "it mirrors the beginning of the story thematically and is poetic" and I get that. But at least at the beginning of the story, she was actually still trying. She fought what she could and struggled and put in effort! The same can't really be said for the present MC. Artistically speaking, I get your point and don't necessarily disagree. But from an entertainment standpoint, it's not really all that interesting to have multiple chapters in a row where the main character could be replaced with a sack of potatoes and the plot would be almost entirely unaltered. It's not that entertaining to watch the character you're invested in and probably the main reason you're reading this manga just do absolutely nothing relevant.

TL,DR: I get where you're coming from and don't necessarily disagree, but I find it disingenuous to just write off people who don't like this as people who just want power fantasy with no depth or nuance, as there are certainly some legitimate reasons why this might be disliked.

That's a lot of hand-wringing and repeating to say there's 'legitimate' reasons to be upset at the development, while 'getting my point' and still disagreeing.

Here's the thing, if you agree that the intention of the manga is to have a certain artistic direction, then if people are reading the manga for reasons contrary to said direction, that doesn't make any sense. That is like saying, I wanted oranges, I bought lemons, now I'm angry for 'legitimate reasons' that they're not oranges. They're fruits, they're sour, and they even have a similar color, but an orange isn't a lemon.

The manga has been made for novel readers. Because this was one of the most popular LNs in Japan a few years ago. Even people who aren't into 'anime stuff' have read it. So the direction of this manga is to make certain encounters and interactions more entertaining and more humorous, at the expense of the plot. People don't need to read the manga to 'get it'. The anime tried to have it both ways, and putting aside the botched production in general, look at where that got it. I expect the manga to actually continue to focus on Shiro, which the LN doesn't always. But think about that, the point then is to lampoon her in those moments. If the LN covered the perspective of other characters than Shiro in parts of the story, it means what she's thinking is either already evident, or not important at the time.

And even then, I think even you have mischaracterized the MC, both as Kumoko and also as Shiro. You say Kumoko the spider always kept trying....which is false. She actually keeps slacking off, and every time she does, reality whacks her in the face, forcing her to wake up and actually make an effort. Her saving grace is that when shit gets real, she really does pull through, by sheer determination. Every time her life gets a little cosy...which happens more than once....we see this happen.

You make it sound like her efforts haven't been invalidated before, when at every turn, every milestone, that's exactly what happened. Every time she found a way to hunt something, another thing came along that she couldn't deal with. Every time she made a home, it was attacked. She even 'beat' Mother eventually...and then found out there was something even more powerful than Mother, aka her grandmother/Maou, who promptly offed her when she thought she couldn't be beaten thanks to immortality. Shall I go on?

And as Shiro, she hasn't been slacking off. She's been putting maybe less effort than she could, but it's also, as many others and myself have repeatedly said, it's bloody difficult. Others take thousands of years in the setting to get where she is now, if they can at all. What efforts are we to expect from her? Does the manga NEED to show her with fizzling magic to see effort? Maybe more to the point, why do I and others have to even say it? It's not like it's a secret, enough background has been provided by the manga so far and people still need to ask why she's so weak.

That's not the issue anyway, it's just her lack of power that people dislike, not that she's putting no effort. Even her scythe is back and people still aren't happy, they aren't interested in 'development', only the power trip. So you'll forgive me if I just write people of, because it's pretty apparent that's not the issue. And her lack of power is always relative to her surroundings. She needed to be 'invalidated' to this degree, now that she's out in the outside world where there are fewer and weaker threats. Or do we need a giant UFO every arc? The other side of power-tripping is people expecting ever bigger and bigger threats, dragonball style.

Again, hardly spoilers to even people paying attention to the actual story up to this point. What has triggered her to develop her powers further every single time? Adversity. Now she's facing adversity. Does what happen next need to be spelled out? Surely people aren't that stupid unless they're not thinking at all.

Just to be very, very clear. I meant what I said. My assessment of her character means if someone has got a problem with this, then it's better for all involved if that person just stops reading. Shiro is not a reliable person. She slacks off. She gets ground down at every turn when she does. Only at those moments, does she rise back up. At no point does she want to stand out, and no point does she do much of anything proactively, except

Spoiler

to help Maou and her plans/dreams.

You'll forgive me if I sound really annoyed, because this whole issue encapsulates the two things I hate most when it comes to manga commentary. One is that people seem to fail to read and understand the content in front of them unless it's spelled out in the most basic terms quite often, replacing it with their own easily disproved understanding that often stems from over-exposure to popular trends. The other is when people appear to engage in hate-reading, which has got to be one of the most retarded practices I've ever encountered in my life. We're not quite there on the latter yet, but I don't think we're very far.

I am a strong advocator of creators having a responsibility for what their audience thinks, but within reason. Creative works are a conversation, and a conversation has to be engaged on terms both sides are comfortable with. But there's limits to that and runs both ways, conversations are a dual responsibility also held up by the other side, the audience.

 

[zymosan99]

 

[popinloopy]

That's a lot of hand-wringing and repeating to say there's 'legitimate' reasons to be upset at the development, while 'getting my point' and still disagreeing.

Here's the thing, if you agree that the intention of the manga is to have a certain artistic direction, then if people are reading the manga for reasons contrary to said direction, that doesn't make any sense. That is like saying, I wanted oranges, I bought lemons, now I'm angry for 'legitimate reasons' that they're not oranges. They're fruits, they're sour, and they even have a similar color, but an orange isn't a lemon.

The manga has been made for novel readers. Because this was one of the most popular LNs in Japan a few years ago. Even people who aren't into 'anime stuff' have read it. So the direction of this manga is to make certain encounters and interactions more entertaining and more humorous, at the expense of the plot. People don't need to read the manga to 'get it'. The anime tried to have it both ways, and putting aside the botched production in general, look at where that got it. I expect the manga to actually continue to focus on Shiro, which the LN doesn't always. But think about that, the point then is to lampoon her in those moments. If the LN covered the perspective of other characters than Shiro in parts of the story, it means what she's thinking is either already evident, or not important at the time.

And even then, I think even you have mischaracterized the MC, both as Kumoko and also as Shiro. You say Kumoko the spider always kept trying....which is false. She actually keeps slacking off, and every time she does, reality whacks her in the face, forcing her to wake up and actually make an effort. Her saving grace is that when shit gets real, she really does pull through, by sheer determination. Every time her life gets a little cosy...which happens more than once....we see this happen.

You make it sound like her efforts haven't been invalidated before, when at every turn, every milestone, that's exactly what happened. Every time she found a way to hunt something, another thing came along that she couldn't deal with. Every time she made a home, it was attacked. She even 'beat' Mother eventually...and then found out there was something even more powerful than Mother, aka her grandmother/Maou, who promptly offed her when she thought she couldn't be beaten thanks to immortality. Shall I go on?

And as Shiro, she hasn't been slacking off. She's been putting maybe less effort than she could, but it's also, as many others and myself have repeatedly said, it's bloody difficult. Others take thousands of years in the setting to get where she is now, if they can at all. What efforts are we to expect from her? Does the manga NEED to show her with fizzling magic to see effort? Maybe more to the point, why do I and others have to even say it? It's not like it's a secret, enough background has been provided by the manga so far and people still need to ask why she's so weak.

That's not the issue anyway, it's just her lack of power that people dislike, not that she's putting no effort. Even her scythe is back and people still aren't happy, they aren't interested in 'development', only the power trip. So you'll forgive me if I just write people of, because it's pretty apparent that's not the issue. And her lack of power is always relative to her surroundings. She needed to be 'invalidated' to this degree, now that she's out in the outside world where there are fewer and weaker threats. Or do we need a giant UFO every arc? The other side of power-tripping is people expecting ever bigger and bigger threats, dragonball style.

Again, hardly spoilers to even people paying attention to the actual story up to this point. What has triggered her to develop her powers further every single time? Adversity. Now she's facing adversity. Does what happen next need to be spelled out? Surely people aren't that stupid unless they're not thinking at all.

Just to be very, very clear. I meant what I said. My assessment of her character means if someone has got a problem with this, then it's better for all involved if that person just stops reading. Shiro is not a reliable person. She slacks off. She gets ground down at every turn when she does. Only at those moments, does she rise back up. At no point does she want to stand out, and no point does she do much of anything proactively, except

Spoiler

to help Maou and her plans/dreams.

You'll forgive me if I sound really annoyed, because this whole issue encapsulates the two things I hate most when it comes to manga commentary. One is that people seem to fail to read and understand the content in front of them unless it's spelled out in the most basic terms quite often, replacing it with their own easily disproved understanding that often stems from over-exposure to popular trends. The other is when people appear to engage in hate-reading, which has got to be one of the most retarded practices I've ever encountered in my life. We're not quite there on the latter yet, but I don't think we're very far.

I am a strong advocator of creators having a responsibility for what their audience thinks, but within reason. Creative works are a conversation, and a conversation has to be engaged on terms both sides are comfortable with. But there's limits to that and runs both ways, conversations are a dual responsibility also held up by the other side, the audience.

Like I said, I do get where you're coming from and what the author is trying to do here. Just because I understand the intention doesn't mean I agree with the implementation and execution. Just call it personal preference. I'm not trying to say it's bad, just that personally it doesn't work for me, and I just dislike people saying clearly I'm wrong and I missed the point. We can all have preferences, and I'm just trying to say that your view isn't the only valid one. People can have reasons for complaining, not everything will meet everyone's own personal tastes, and I don't like when someone insists "well I like it, so maybe you're just stupid and you should feel bad." Not that you're exactly saying that, I'm just exaggerating a bit for effect. Even if that's not what you're saying, it kinda feels or comes across that way. That anyone who disagrees with you and dislikes how the story is going must be a complete dunce and the whole artistic aspect is going over there heads. Nah, sometimes we just don't like how it was handled.

You're not necessarily wrong either so I'm sorry if I'm coming off as confrontational. I just wanted to get my own view out there as well.

 

[groudonvert]

That's a lot of hand-wringing and repeating to say there's 'legitimate' reasons to be upset at the development, while 'getting my point' and still disagreeing.

Here's the thing, if you agree that the intention of the manga is to have a certain artistic direction, then if people are reading the manga for reasons contrary to said direction, that doesn't make any sense. That is like saying, I wanted oranges, I bought lemons, now I'm angry for 'legitimate reasons' that they're not oranges. They're fruits, they're sour, and they even have a similar color, but an orange isn't a lemon.

The manga has been made for novel readers. Because this was one of the most popular LNs in Japan a few years ago. Even people who aren't into 'anime stuff' have read it. So the direction of this manga is to make certain encounters and interactions more entertaining and more humorous, at the expense of the plot. People don't need to read the manga to 'get it'. The anime tried to have it both ways, and putting aside the botched production in general, look at where that got it. I expect the manga to actually continue to focus on Shiro, which the LN doesn't always. But think about that, the point then is to lampoon her in those moments. If the LN covered the perspective of other characters than Shiro in parts of the story, it means what she's thinking is either already evident, or not important at the time.

And even then, I think even you have mischaracterized the MC, both as Kumoko and also as Shiro. You say Kumoko the spider always kept trying....which is false. She actually keeps slacking off, and every time she does, reality whacks her in the face, forcing her to wake up and actually make an effort. Her saving grace is that when shit gets real, she really does pull through, by sheer determination. Every time her life gets a little cosy...which happens more than once....we see this happen.

You make it sound like her efforts haven't been invalidated before, when at every turn, every milestone, that's exactly what happened. Every time she found a way to hunt something, another thing came along that she couldn't deal with. Every time she made a home, it was attacked. She even 'beat' Mother eventually...and then found out there was something even more powerful than Mother, aka her grandmother/Maou, who promptly offed her when she thought she couldn't be beaten thanks to immortality. Shall I go on?

And as Shiro, she hasn't been slacking off. She's been putting maybe less effort than she could, but it's also, as many others and myself have repeatedly said, it's bloody difficult. Others take thousands of years in the setting to get where she is now, if they can at all. What efforts are we to expect from her? Does the manga NEED to show her with fizzling magic to see effort? Maybe more to the point, why do I and others have to even say it? It's not like it's a secret, enough background has been provided by the manga so far and people still need to ask why she's so weak.

That's not the issue anyway, it's just her lack of power that people dislike, not that she's putting no effort. Even her scythe is back and people still aren't happy, they aren't interested in 'development', only the power trip. So you'll forgive me if I just write people of, because it's pretty apparent that's not the issue. And her lack of power is always relative to her surroundings. She needed to be 'invalidated' to this degree, now that she's out in the outside world where there are fewer and weaker threats. Or do we need a giant UFO every arc? The other side of power-tripping is people expecting ever bigger and bigger threats, dragonball style.

Again, hardly spoilers to even people paying attention to the actual story up to this point. What has triggered her to develop her powers further every single time? Adversity. Now she's facing adversity. Does what happen next need to be spelled out? Surely people aren't that stupid unless they're not thinking at all.

Just to be very, very clear. I meant what I said. My assessment of her character means if someone has got a problem with this, then it's better for all involved if that person just stops reading. Shiro is not a reliable person. She slacks off. She gets ground down at every turn when she does. Only at those moments, does she rise back up. At no point does she want to stand out, and no point does she do much of anything proactively, except

Spoiler

to help Maou and her plans/dreams.

You'll forgive me if I sound really annoyed, because this whole issue encapsulates the two things I hate most when it comes to manga commentary. One is that people seem to fail to read and understand the content in front of them unless it's spelled out in the most basic terms quite often, replacing it with their own easily disproved understanding that often stems from over-exposure to popular trends. The other is when people appear to engage in hate-reading, which has got to be one of the most retarded practices I've ever encountered in my life. We're not quite there on the latter yet, but I don't think we're very far.

I am a strong advocator of creators having a responsibility for what their audience thinks, but within reason. Creative works are a conversation, and a conversation has to be engaged on terms both sides are comfortable with. But there's limits to that and runs both ways, conversations are a dual responsibility also held up by the other side, the audience.

I wouldn't say she slacks off. The first Sloth holder in the world killed himself by overworking (ironic lol) and she got Sloth. In the Light Novel she works to the bone for her plans to succeed. Those close to her acknowledges her workalcoholic attitude.

 

[Jstar338]

how did this series fall off so damn hard

it's just gotten so shitty, slow, and boring. All of the tension, action, and enjoyable aspects have vanished

 

[groudonvert]

how did this series fall off so damn hard

it's just gotten so shitty, slow, and boring. All of the tension, action, and enjoyable aspects have vanished

Well if you want some tension, read chapter 69.2

 

[Zethuron]

Thats one darn beatdown they are receiving from him.

 

[DLRevan]

Like I said, I do get where you're coming from and what the author is trying to do here. Just because I understand the intention doesn't mean I agree with the implementation and execution. Just call it personal preference. I'm not trying to say it's bad, just that personally it doesn't work for me, and I just dislike people saying clearly I'm wrong and I missed the point. We can all have preferences, and I'm just trying to say that your view isn't the only valid one. People can have reasons for complaining, not everything will meet everyone's own personal tastes, and I don't like when someone insists "well I like it, so maybe you're just stupid and you should feel bad." Not that you're exactly saying that, I'm just exaggerating a bit for effect. Even if that's not what you're saying, it kinda feels or comes across that way. That anyone who disagrees with you and dislikes how the story is going must be a complete dunce and the whole artistic aspect is going over there heads. Nah, sometimes we just don't like how it was handled.

You're not necessarily wrong either so I'm sorry if I'm coming off as confrontational. I just wanted to get my own view out there as well.

I'm very much against the "everything is right from some point of view" idea.

Sometimes people are just wrong. That applies even when it's literature. There's a final answer, which is author's intention. I may be assuming some of the intent, but at least that's based on their commentary on the series, and the real life factors that affect the relationships between manga and novels. Banging on about how the story got boring is narrow minded, out of context, and honestly, doesn't take a genius to interpret some of the reasons why people are taking that stance.

It's asinine to assume just because you have a 'preference', that gives you remit to criticise. Imagine if I 'preferred' that everyone who disagreed with me got banned from the forums. The correct answer to 'preference' is acknowledging the series is not for you, and walking away. Not imposing your preference onto it. I am here because I like the series, and I use said preference as a lens to understand and evaluate it, but ultimately I argue on its behalf while offering reasoning and evidence.

I don't go reading manga I don't like them complaining it's not what I wanted. Neither do I do it when the manga turns out to not be what I was really interested in, even dozens of chapters later. I don't even do that for manga that change their stance halfway, if the author decided to do something different. Because that's not criticism, that's just self-validation.

Don't try to equalize people feeling strongly for whatever reasons they have with what I'm arguing for. That's how the world got whacked up by 'alternative facts', where people can take whatever stance they want without backing it up. And as I said, it even applies to literature, manga.

 

[Torgr01]

That was the WN. In the LN it was like this. She also practised casting spells without the systems guidance, but she still used the mana manipulation skills to do so. She doesn't have that skill any more so she has to learn how to manipulate mana herself, learning spells after that should pretty easy since as you said, she already practised those.

Ah, that would explain the difference. I never read the LN so it seemed to be just an extra arc, that was mixing in actual important story events out of order.

 

[ClemCa]

Honestly, I know the story's pacing is good, yet the release rate makes it feel that much slower. It's painful.