Live Dungeon! - Vol. 4 Ch. 19 - The Mad Dog Returns
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@theShear Sure. But this particular skill only shot feathers to obfuscate vision, in the game Tsutomu ended up in. Tsutomu learns how to use it to straight up kill mobs. Their world is from a game, but the game's logic doesn't apply anymore. No reason aggro management should be the same still.
@stal2walk Game-logic doesn't fully apply anymore, so that's useless. But yes, Garm's skill does increase aggro without dealing damage. He can deal damage as well. But there's no evidence aggro is strictly individual; it could be that Garm has to hold more aggro than the rest of the party combined. For all we know, I mean.
@stal2walk Game-logic doesn't fully apply anymore, so that's useless. But yes, Garm's skill does increase aggro without dealing damage. He can deal damage as well. But there's no evidence aggro is strictly individual; it could be that Garm has to hold more aggro than the rest of the party combined. For all we know, I mean.
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@cor3zone Your logic doesn't work and game logic isn't useless. General mmo game logic actually pretty much explains all the problems you have.
As has happened in previous chapters, if someone generates more aggro than Garm the target the enemy then takes aim at is the new highest aggro target. This happened back in chapter 11 back when Kamiyu was introduced. Kamiyu was dpsing so hard due to her higher level and superior stats that she was "stealing hate" from Garm.
The situation with the Feather Dance skill is that its base state is of a non-damaging debuff skill, but with proper practice and imaging it can be upgraded into an attack skill. This is what the birdgirl and Tsutomu did. There are quite a few mmos and other rpgs where traits, merit awards and simple use can be used to upgrade existing skills.
As has happened in previous chapters, if someone generates more aggro than Garm the target the enemy then takes aim at is the new highest aggro target. This happened back in chapter 11 back when Kamiyu was introduced. Kamiyu was dpsing so hard due to her higher level and superior stats that she was "stealing hate" from Garm.
The situation with the Feather Dance skill is that its base state is of a non-damaging debuff skill, but with proper practice and imaging it can be upgraded into an attack skill. This is what the birdgirl and Tsutomu did. There are quite a few mmos and other rpgs where traits, merit awards and simple use can be used to upgrade existing skills.
@Ultimatecalibur Tsutomu is a master of the game. He soloed the game as a party, alone. I'm pretty sure he knows the mechanics of the game, inside and out. So it makes no sense, at all, that he would be surprised about Feather Dance being used to deal damage if it was part of the original game. Feather Dance thus wasn't able to deal damage, through an upgrade or otherwise. Thus, the game's logic does not fully apply anymore.
I'm not saying general aggro mechanics don't apply, I'm saying we have no evidence they still do. Thus I assume they don't, until it's proven otherwise. In the case with Kamiyu, she was also the closest target when aggro switched. That is not hard evidence that aggro is strictly individual, just that targeting probably is.
I'm not saying general aggro mechanics don't apply, I'm saying we have no evidence they still do. Thus I assume they don't, until it's proven otherwise. In the case with Kamiyu, she was also the closest target when aggro switched. That is not hard evidence that aggro is strictly individual, just that targeting probably is.
@welcome2atlantis
Attack is the best defense
Attack is the best defense
@cor3zone
Are we arguing about aggro again? Also hey man, how's it goin'?
Going by your example of non-individual aggro versus individual targeting:
Consider the possibility where Kamiyu deals a bajillion points of damage, then flies over to Garm who, up until this point, has done literally nothing.
If aggro is individual based, Garm would *have* to use skills to draw aggro.
If aggro is group based, then...what, the aggro would fall to Garm without him doing anything.
(This is just a variation of a problem I posted some chapters ago: two mages are in a party and pincer a monster in the middle. In a group-aggro situation, the strong mage can shoot his best spells and, when the monster gets close, let the weaker one take over and ping-pong the monster until it dies like that, since a pure group-aggro mechanic would not have a solo-aggro mechanic.
And if it did have a solo-aggro mechanic, then why is that group aggro bar there in the first place?)
Are we arguing about aggro again? Also hey man, how's it goin'?
Going by your example of non-individual aggro versus individual targeting:
Consider the possibility where Kamiyu deals a bajillion points of damage, then flies over to Garm who, up until this point, has done literally nothing.
If aggro is individual based, Garm would *have* to use skills to draw aggro.
If aggro is group based, then...what, the aggro would fall to Garm without him doing anything.
(This is just a variation of a problem I posted some chapters ago: two mages are in a party and pincer a monster in the middle. In a group-aggro situation, the strong mage can shoot his best spells and, when the monster gets close, let the weaker one take over and ping-pong the monster until it dies like that, since a pure group-aggro mechanic would not have a solo-aggro mechanic.
And if it did have a solo-aggro mechanic, then why is that group aggro bar there in the first place?)
@Longherin If aggro is group based, then the closest target would be the priority. Unless Garm out-aggroed the whole party by himself.
Edit: meaning Kamiyu would instantly grab aggro again when she attacked, if Garm truly did nothing.
Interesting mage problem. But we already know there is some individual aggro mechanic, since Garm can effectively tank. We also know high DPS pulls huge aggro. So, the stronger mage would still hold aggro, not the weaker one. I never said there wasn't individual aggro, just that there is no evidence that's the only aggro mechanic.
Solo-aggro and group-aggro because a guy with a minigun is a huge threat, but a squad with assault rifles is a bigger threat.
Edit: meaning Kamiyu would instantly grab aggro again when she attacked, if Garm truly did nothing.
Interesting mage problem. But we already know there is some individual aggro mechanic, since Garm can effectively tank. We also know high DPS pulls huge aggro. So, the stronger mage would still hold aggro, not the weaker one. I never said there wasn't individual aggro, just that there is no evidence that's the only aggro mechanic.
Solo-aggro and group-aggro because a guy with a minigun is a huge threat, but a squad with assault rifles is a bigger threat.
@cor3zone
(Is it because the minigun isn't a real weapon?)
I would say that comparison is a false dichotomy, since both 'one guy with minigun' and 'a squad of assault rifles' are 'entities', which are technically single units.
It's a bit like Total War, where (in the old games) you'd have two squads of units with 100 people each, but from a gameplay and user experience standpoint the two squads are just treated as 'single units'.
Group-aggro, then, is only valuable in so far as identifying the entire Kamiyu-Garm-Tsutomu group as threats versus other groups (like the Old Guy From Before and his harpy friend), because invariably you will break down into the nitty gritty of "in the group of attackers of Amy and Kamiyu, which one is the bigger threat?" and that's just solo aggro with a different layer of paint.
(Also if Garm out-aggroed the entire party then it stands that he would have an aggro rating that stands alone from the entire group, hence, solo aggro. If he could grab aggro from the group at all and then Kamiyu could grab back, then I'm pretty sure tanks could cheese the system by having whips attached to watermills as weapons, and that sounds stupid fun.)
(Is it because the minigun isn't a real weapon?)
I would say that comparison is a false dichotomy, since both 'one guy with minigun' and 'a squad of assault rifles' are 'entities', which are technically single units.
It's a bit like Total War, where (in the old games) you'd have two squads of units with 100 people each, but from a gameplay and user experience standpoint the two squads are just treated as 'single units'.
Group-aggro, then, is only valuable in so far as identifying the entire Kamiyu-Garm-Tsutomu group as threats versus other groups (like the Old Guy From Before and his harpy friend), because invariably you will break down into the nitty gritty of "in the group of attackers of Amy and Kamiyu, which one is the bigger threat?" and that's just solo aggro with a different layer of paint.
(Also if Garm out-aggroed the entire party then it stands that he would have an aggro rating that stands alone from the entire group, hence, solo aggro. If he could grab aggro from the group at all and then Kamiyu could grab back, then I'm pretty sure tanks could cheese the system by having whips attached to watermills as weapons, and that sounds stupid fun.)
@Longherin It's a real thing.
If the squad is a single 'entity', then the attackers of the party are as well. The example was offered implying the single guy and the squad were on the same side, just separated. Like Garm and the party DPS. Thus, group-aggro. You could think of it as any DPS being one group, and any tanks being one group. Right now, Garm is a group of one.
Group-aggro is very useful, like the example I gave. Minigun and squad separate, the squad is the target. Both together, minigun is the target. Say Tsutomu has 1 aggro, Garm has 2, Kamiyu has 2, and (a returned) Amy has 1. Another party (like Old Man-party) has 4 aggro combined. Tsutomu-party has 6 (2+1+2+1) aggro, making them the target over Old Man-party. Tanks then have 2, healers/supports have 1, while DPS have 3 (2+1). So, DPS are the targets. Kamiyu has more than Amy, so Kamiyu is the priority target of the two.
You're just being ridiculous with your "whips attached to watermills as weapons". 'Never argue with a fool.' I'm done, have fun.
If the squad is a single 'entity', then the attackers of the party are as well. The example was offered implying the single guy and the squad were on the same side, just separated. Like Garm and the party DPS. Thus, group-aggro. You could think of it as any DPS being one group, and any tanks being one group. Right now, Garm is a group of one.
You're pushing a point I already conceded. There is solo aggro, but also a distinct lack of evidence that solo is all there is. I'm just assuming not, until proven otherwise. It's the scientific method. Hypothesis: group-aggro exist. Now we have to try disproving that. So far, you have presented no evidence that group-aggro doesn't exist, just that solo-aggro does. Proving one thing is real does not disprove another being real.
Group-aggro is very useful, like the example I gave. Minigun and squad separate, the squad is the target. Both together, minigun is the target. Say Tsutomu has 1 aggro, Garm has 2, Kamiyu has 2, and (a returned) Amy has 1. Another party (like Old Man-party) has 4 aggro combined. Tsutomu-party has 6 (2+1+2+1) aggro, making them the target over Old Man-party. Tanks then have 2, healers/supports have 1, while DPS have 3 (2+1). So, DPS are the targets. Kamiyu has more than Amy, so Kamiyu is the priority target of the two.
You're just being ridiculous with your "whips attached to watermills as weapons". 'Never argue with a fool.' I'm done, have fun.
@cor3zone
I meant more as it is depicted as a weapon usable by a single person, but fair, that's a mistake on my part.
From a pure design standpoint, if you already have solo aggro as a system, team aggro is just a redundancy, since team aggro as a functionality provides nothing that solo aggro does not already cover. I don't think there exists a game that actively utilizes team aggro beyond at all, but I'm kinda...not playing mmos, so...
With the value system you've provided...is there a need to do those calculation at all? I mean, it seems a lot easier to just go "the three DPS members of both parties have the highest aggro values out of all eight people (let's say) present, target the three of them first" rather than "here is a set of calculations that will arrive at the same conclusion, but with more work."
Also, did I catch you on a bad day? You seem kinda...I dunno, tense, for someone discussing theoretical mmo concepts on a manga about abusing those mmo concepts on the basis of NPCs having imperfect information.
Hope you feel better.
(Also I stand by my whips on a watermill. Might have to scale it down some, but I would love to have a weaponized car wash machine.)
I meant more as it is depicted as a weapon usable by a single person, but fair, that's a mistake on my part.
From a pure design standpoint, if you already have solo aggro as a system, team aggro is just a redundancy, since team aggro as a functionality provides nothing that solo aggro does not already cover. I don't think there exists a game that actively utilizes team aggro beyond at all, but I'm kinda...not playing mmos, so...
With the value system you've provided...is there a need to do those calculation at all? I mean, it seems a lot easier to just go "the three DPS members of both parties have the highest aggro values out of all eight people (let's say) present, target the three of them first" rather than "here is a set of calculations that will arrive at the same conclusion, but with more work."
Also, did I catch you on a bad day? You seem kinda...I dunno, tense, for someone discussing theoretical mmo concepts on a manga about abusing those mmo concepts on the basis of NPCs having imperfect information.
Hope you feel better.
(Also I stand by my whips on a watermill. Might have to scale it down some, but I would love to have a weaponized car wash machine.)
@Longherin No, I'm sorry. I'm just sick if people pushing something I already conceded. Your comment was just the drop that made the bucket overflow, my bad.
Ping pong sounds interesting but it's hard to win. Requires good wrist skill.
I don't know about car wash monsters. I think drowning.
If everyone has the same dps how does it choose the target? Nearest target? What if when enemy approaches the nearest target, they stop attacking. Will the enemy turn around to attack the now-nearest damage dealing target? No because of team aggro? I guess if the enemy has ranged attacks it wouldn't matter if team aggro didn't exist because it'd be too hard to time dps stoppage and prevent death from ranged.
So team and solo work together to prevent ping pong champions? Which goes back to the fact winning at ping pong is too hard even without 'team'
I don't know about car wash monsters. I think drowning.
If everyone has the same dps how does it choose the target? Nearest target? What if when enemy approaches the nearest target, they stop attacking. Will the enemy turn around to attack the now-nearest damage dealing target? No because of team aggro? I guess if the enemy has ranged attacks it wouldn't matter if team aggro didn't exist because it'd be too hard to time dps stoppage and prevent death from ranged.
So team and solo work together to prevent ping pong champions? Which goes back to the fact winning at ping pong is too hard even without 'team'
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Great chapter lol garm dodged the dragon swipe and had it open the potion he was holding.
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I like the discussion in the comments, but all im hearing is "who let the dogs out" turned up to 11
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Dex-chan lover
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Wut?
She thought it was okay to cling to him because she believed he was underage (by their standards), but suddenly it isn't okay because he is a legally appropriate target?
Just what?!
She thought it was okay to cling to him because she believed he was underage (by their standards), but suddenly it isn't okay because he is a legally appropriate target?
Just what?!
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