Just jumping on to this "How op is Shamiko" argument
Mikan has stated Momo is insanely strong even by Magical Girl standards.
And this is a silly slice of manga with exaggerated personalities we are talking about. So magical girls having an obvious and surprising weakness makes full sense. Eg Momo and Mikan. (and even Lilith)
And the goal has been clearly stated for Shamiko to become a powerful demon who can overcome all the problems. From protecting the town to making Momo a Vassal, to freeing Lilth and everything else. Currently Shamiko is weak, but she is becoming steadily stronger.
The end goal will be very far away and even when she is strong. Her anxiety, innocence and simple mind will make her seem weak without others to give her advice.
And technically Shamiko is actually insanely strong. Sakura's core (the strongest magical girl) is inside her, she has her family's entire demonic power, the only reason she seems weak is because (of her personality and) she has an immense amount of powerful curses and seals on her (that even Sakura couldn't break)... I mean the fact that she isn't dead is kinda hinting at how insanely powerful she is. Even Lilith is actually pretty powerful really and it seems she was sealed away when she was very young and not yet able to use her powers properly. So... all considered... I would say Shamiko will eventually become clearly op in a way... but her personality will still be kind and innocent and a great amount of stupid. And unsealed Lilith might even outclass Momo.
So... yeah X'3
But most importantly it is a silly slice of life manga, where weird and stupid stuff happen "just because." So I feel the argument is a bit null and void.
... Yeah, this is not a shounen battle manga, fortunately.
Shamiko doesn't actually need to beat Momo for her to become her kin. I think there are basically 2 conditions, the first is acquiring enough magical power so that Momo doesn't weaken too much upon conversion. Just the amount of magic, not battle ability. The second, a subtler one, would be I believe for Shamiko to ask Momo to be her partner, not her subordinate. And that might even be the only on that really matters for Momo.
Anyway... IF and only IF Shamiko actually needs to win a fight, it should be against a dream guardian, in the realm where her race has the actual advantage. It's too silly for a dream demon to have to win her fights outside dreams.
@KZO
Stop it. Just stop applying video-game logic for one second. No. Shamiko's reaction time is not good enough. End of excuse.
Momo gets faster because her body isn't human. Magical Girls are made of ether. They dont have human limitations. Shamiko is basically just a normal human with a good weapon that she can barely use. In dreams she is just a normal human with a weapon she can use a bit better. Even if she made a barrier that reflects physical damage in the dream world (because she sure as hell cant do it in real life), it would be easy for an experienced Magical Girl to find a way around that.
Then there are Magical Girls like Mikan that can snipe Shamiko from 2 kilometers away before she even knows they are there.
That's not even considering building level beams, stealth or any other OP nonsense some of them can most likely do.
This familiar argument is even sillier... the weakpoint WAS OBVIOUS TO ANYONE WITH A BRAIN. This doesn't foreshadow anything! It was completely reasonable of Momo to assume that the only thing standing out about the familiar, the magatama hanging on some fickle string, would be the weakpoint. This would be especially obvious for someone who plays video-games! Yet Shamiko was too dumb to even see that... and you are telling me she will develop some insane battle sense that allows her to instantly see weaknesses in superhuman beings that can attack faster than the eye can see? Get outta here. The long and short of it is that Shamiko's skillset is not made for combat at all and never will be. She is all about sneaky actions like dream diving and manipulation. She cannot and will not be able to win a straightforward fight.
Bad intentions? Are you serious.... if she can make anything she can imagine, then no matter whether she thinks its morally right or not, when she tried to make them she should have been able to, but she couldn't. What do you even think Momo's request to make a super long bamboo stick was for? Shamiko's limits in the real world are super strict. She CANT make whatever she can imagine, because it would take too much mana. This is not up for debate. This is a fact.
You are missing the point of the manga by so many miles that I wonder if you are even reading it, but that aside, did you really think even for a second that the "you have to be stronger than me" condition was ever actually relevant? You can't possibly be this naieve... Honestly I'm just wondering whether you know your argumentation is filled with more holes than Swiss cheese and you are just being disingenuous on purpose.
@Loona_Roses
Mikan has stated Momo is physically insanely strong compared to most Magical Girls. Momo herself considers herself low tier and considering how insane Sakura was I'm willing to believe it.
Shamiko becoming "a strong demon who solves all the problems" is not founded in actual strength or power. It's about improving herself and becoming someone who can bring peace to the town. All of the goals she has are non-violent and dont require her to ever become strong. Not even the vassal deal, that was just an excuse by Momo.
Sakura's core does not provide Shamiko with strength.
Shamiko took on her family's curse, she did not absorb demonic power.
That she isn't dead has nothing to do with her being strong. Joshua seemed to survive just fine with the curses. In fact Shamiko just got a rather strong dose of curses and had an incredibly weak body to begin with. She is not strong. The opposite. And she only lives because Sakura traded all the family fortune for Shamiko's health and then sacrificed her core. Nothing about Shamiko herself was doing any work here.
@thofheinz
The issue with the family curse that almost got her killed was Yuko taking on Ryoko's share of the curse in her place, when she was already frail and sick. It's not explained how she did it, but as to why, we can probably guess. She's just a plain nice person, and when she found out she was going to have a little sister, she probably thought, "I don't want my sister to go through what I'm going through," and Magic Happens™.
Sakura messing with the curse only bought Yuko some time, and after Sakura fused her core into Yuko, it still took her months to be able to return to something of a normal life, but remained so weak that even a minor amount of physical exertion made her pass out, and she frequently got sick.
@BugDemon
When the staff works with videogame logic, I can't stop. That's what training reaction time is for. Body strength isn't a factor for a magic user, she can stay still without using muscles, and her body is frail in the first place because of the curse, by the time a fight with Momo happens the curse will be already broken. I mention Momo because let's be fair, even though they exist, we won't ever see a real evil magical girl hunting Shamiko in the manga, the only possible fight Shamiko would have with a magical girl is Momo, not even Mikan, just Momo, and we know the only 2 things Momo has is brute force and Fresh Peach Heart Shower. As long as Shamiko trains reaction time, she can figure out something, she has plot armor on her side.
Momo doesn't let her use dream diving anymore though, I know that's more convenient for her, but it's forbidden. And it's more like the plot armor will make her figure out how to win, not her own brain. Like in those scenes everything is hopeless until the protagonist remembers something they learned in a previous chapter and that gives them the win, that's more realistic than just hoping Shamiko's brain gets better.
She can't imagine the bamboo stick, there is no reason for chopsticks to take much mana, they're just chopsticks, she has done stuff made of other metals before, she didn't made something of gold because she knew Momo was planning something for them. So far we haven't seen anything she couldn't do that she couldn't imagine, mana hasn't been mentioned when she tries to make it, she just can't go against her brain, that includes morals.
I'll tell you as someone that was spoiled of Darkness Peach without knowing the context of chapter 39, at that point I didn't think becoming stronger was relevant, I thought okay, that wasn't it, Shamiko just will find another way to make Momo her vassal because it clearly happens at the end of volume 3. Then chapter 39 was translated and everything fell apart, Shamiko just watched hopelessly as Momo was blasted by Mikan's arrow or else she was gonna disappear and everything in my mind fell apart, the whole thing turned serious real quick, I was as sad as Shamiko was in that chapter and I realized that yep, Shamiko HAS to be stronger, it is relevant now after chapter 39, there are not easy ways out to make Momo her vassal without that, unless they somehow make Momo a human again so her ether body can't disappear, but she would never agree to that because that would also make her weaker.
I'm gonna post my prediction of how the final chapter of Machikado Mazoku will go, first of all it will be double length:
*It starts as it begun, Shamiko challenges Momo for a final duel (assuming their reaction times are even now or Momo decides to stay still and only counter attacks, as a handicap.)
*Shamiko distracts Momo with gozenso bugs and a few sandbags with the shape of Tamasakura-chan like the ones Lilith use
*She finally sees Fresh Peach Heart Shower
*Shamiko uses all the knowledge she has about Momo and the skills she learned during the whole manga to win, it's obviously not a fight to death, so she can concentrate better in remembering things
*She wins and Momo says "I guess this means you've won." (That's the only possible and perfect line that Momo has to say to finish the dumb rivalry Shamiko has with her, no other option but that. Honestly, if it were for me the final chapter would just be a fluffy date, but this is a prediction based on the fact that Shamiko has to prove she can support Momo's ether body with her own energy)
*Momo agrees to become her vassal
*They get dad out of the box because they broke the curse not long ago
*Dad explains vassal means marriage because a wife is a vassal
*Momo accepts/confesses
*HAPPY END
There is no time to put anything about both clans there, maybe an extra line narrated by Joshua, but Shamiko won't make full peace between both clans, that's dreaming too big.
@BugDemon
“Shamiko is no boss, that entire concept is a joke”
She is the boss, and that's not a joke. Sakura herself left her in charge of the city https://mangadex.org/chapter/737813/15 She gave up her position to Shamiko. By definition, Shamiko is the current boss, and that is not debatable. The rest of the cast has also recognized that as the true.
Chapters 50-52
https://desuarchive.org/a/thread/194320227
https://s2.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1570/94/1570947858947.jpg
Ugallu: ... the boss of this town? this person?
Ugallu: how can somebody with such a thin tail be your boss?
Ugallu: The queen of the night?
Momo: ur... SHE’S THE BOSS for the time being...
Momo wasn't lying or kidding here. Why do you think she was so ashamed? She was ashamed to admit that someone so weak was her boss, but she couldn't deny it because it was true, that was the joke.
In case you need more examples.
https://s2.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1567/90/1567907176378.jpg
Shamiko: you don't need to call me boss, that was just a spur of the moment...
Ugallu: I've heard it all from Mikan. You are Mikan's boss.
Ugallu: You've gathered all those people to help me out
Ugallu: A lot of things couldn't have happened if you weren't there
Ugallu: so you are the boss! I agree with that!!
One more.
https://s2.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1567/90/1567907176378.jpg
Momo: so boss, what's up next?
Shamiko: are you looking down on me?
Momo: I am not looking down on you.
Momo: It was thanks to you that Ugallu has found a place where she can exist.
Momo: I don't think that... you've done anything wrong
(what)
(I am the gatekeeper)
Shamiko: We were taking things one step at a time, and my tail is fraying just thinking back about all of this.
Momo: .. isn't it fine though?
Momo: Anee was somewhat like that as well.
Momo: yeah, you do feel kind of small.
Shamiko: you really are looking down on me!!
Momo: I am not looking down on you
Hang in there, Shamiko!! Create a town that everyone can live in peace and with ease!!
“Momo's training is based on scenarios where Shamiko is alone and has to somehow wait until Momo or any of her friends come to save her”
Examples?
“Why do you think Momo is so overprotective of her? "
Momo protects Shamiko so much because she knows that IN THIS MOMENT Shamiko is still very weak. That doesn't mean that she doesn't want Shamiko to strengthen herself so she can protect herself in the future or that she doesn't believe that Shamiko can become very strong in the future. In fact, she WANTS that to happen, regardless of the whole matter of being her vassal. https://mangadex.org/chapter/737813/12
"She never intended to make Shamiko able to hold her own in battle, that's a pipe dream. ”
See how that fallacy collapses like a house of cards.
https://mangadex.org/chapter/756364/5
“Shamiko will never be able to contend with Magical Girls in a real life fight. Ever.”
This is just your personal speculation. Nothing sustains that.
“This is not debatable, this is what both the manga and every character's predictions have shown us.”
There is NOTHING that told us that. In fact, if the manga were giving us hints of something, in any case, it would be that the opposite will happen. Just see how much Shamiko has progressed. She went from just being able to shoot this https://mangadex.org/chapter/726670/14 to shoot this https://mangadex.org/chapter/756364/6 , and with each volume that passes She just gets stronger. According to your logic, as before the most she could do was this https://mangadex.org/chapter/719090/11 it should be impossible that now she can do this https://mangadex.org/chapter/760876/7 , and look what happened. At this point, literally anything can happen. The only person who can say what will happen is Ito, and you and the rest of us only can speculate, not insure.
Oh, and let me clarify something. I'm not on the side "The real ending is Shamiko defeating Momo after becoming super OP" (although, depending on how is that handled, I'd like to see that). I'm from the side “Nothing is written in stone yet. If you want to theorize do it, but don't act as if those theories were to happen without a doubt”.
PD: Man, how good it feels to finally have free time again 😁.
Edit: I didn't knew that if the links were attached to the commas, they stop working 😮.
Goddamn it, this is getting pretty annoying now. This will be my last reply to this topic before I burst an artery in my brain from all this wrongness.
@KZO
No, for the goddamn laaaaaast time. Shamiko is not weak because of the curse, she was born weak by default. THERE IS NO WAY she can train her reaction time to match that kind of speed. That is not humanly possible. And she won't fight Momo and she can't win against Momo. Those are both ridiculous assertions. Shamiko is not a fighter and her skillset is not made for fights. The only possible way she will ever last even a minute against Momo is inside a dream where Momo is weakened and Shamiko's Staff works better.
Physical prowess and stamina are actually exceptionally important for a magic user like Shamiko, because 90% of her skill is running away. If she is too weak to even run from her oppoenent she is doomed.
I... I don't even know what you're trying to argue here. I know dream diving is not a good thing and should be used sparinngly, but that doesn't change the fact that's Shamiko's only trump card. She can't "win" anything without it.
She does it later on to solve two more problems under the guidance of Ogura, so it's not like she won't use it anymore
Are you kidding me?? What the hell do you mean "can't imagine a bamboo stick"? Are you crazy? This is not some advanced thing, everyone knows what a bamboo pole looks like. She simply can't make a bamboo pole that grows really tall. It both takes too much focus and mana to do. That's the point. Why do you think they went to the dream for image training? Because Shamiko needs more practice in conceptualising things. But it's just so she can do basic things in the real world. The broken shit is all reserved for dreams. Period.
Actually read the chapter please. Shamiko literally said "It didn't work, they are just normal chopsticks." SHE TRIED. Didn't work. The only thing even remotely implying she might have is that they said that Shamiko didn't like the idea, but that doesn't mean she didnt actually try. It's just a fact that making worldbreaking things like an infinite supply of gold is beyond her. THAT takes a lot of mana. It's not the chopsticks part you simpleton, it's the gold part.
Uuuugh. So this is where this stupid misunderstanding stems from... Okay. Shamiko will have to improve her mana, so Momo doesn't get weaker if she becomes Shamiko's dependent. That far I actually agree. That doesn't mean Shamiko has to become stronger at all. Becoming more competent is one thing, actually becoming "strong" is completely different. And just as you fail to predict the plot before you fail to predict it again. There are countless possible ways this issue can be circumvented. There is even a momentary solution to it very soon.
Momo herself knows Shamiko will NEVER be stronger than her, so by god, just admit that line was not supposed to be serious. Have you actually read the chapter? Momo followed that up by saying "You have to beat me in a fist fight". Wtf. If anyone honestly believes this is possibly they need to take their meds. It was an excuse because Momo hates being out of control or Shamiko's subordinate. Of course if Momo became weaker it would be bad because she can't protect Shamiko anymore, which is the number 1 concern. This is the ironic thing about the statement after all, if Shamiko became strong enough to beat Momo she wouldn't need to be protected anymore. But Momo only wants her to become stronger so Momo can stay strong enough to protect her. It's a farce. An excuse. End of discussion.
I don't care for or agree with your prediction. Nothing more to say.
@Reiba1925
Of course the interloper has to rear its ugly head at the end...
facepalms
Reiba... Reiba, Reiba, Reiba. Please. You are supposed to prove that the boss thing is NOT a joke, yet you post proof WHY it is a joke. THis hurts my head so much.
Sakura only casually said on the side "Oh yeah and protect the town too if you want". What about that sounds like she is leaving her in charge??! Sakura knows that Momo and Mikan are already protecting the town. She is basically telling Shamiko to help them because she knows it will make her stronger/more experienced and understand the world better. It was treated as a joke here by how casual and irresponsible Sakura acts by just putting that in there like it's a bonus option. How you could ever misconstrue it as her actually telling Shamiko to take over her job, I cannot posibly fathom.
The entire Ugallu calling her boss thing IS A JOKE. Ugallu sees Shamiko as the boss because she organized everyone to make Ugallu's body. She is the only one who calls her boss and it's not supposed to be taken seriously. THE LINE YOU POSTED HERE:
Momo: so boss, what's up next?
Shamiko: are you looking down on me?
Momo: I am not looking down on you.
Momo: It was thanks to you that Ugallu has found a place where she can exist.
Momo: I don't think that... you've done anything wrong
is the proof that it is taken as a lighthearted joke. Momo is first teasing Shamiko and then reassuring her that she doesn't have to feel so patronized by it, because she did something good and earned Ugallu's respect. Momo doesn't actually think Shamiko is anyone's boss, she is just saying that Shamiko earned the right to be respected for doing something for Ugallu and that she should take more pride in helping people.
That was lip service. I don't even have much to add. Momo was just giving Shamiko lip service to cheer her up. Both of them know it won't happen, but Momo is saying "Doesn't matter, something could happen that will make it all work out". Momo doesn't ever act so casual about things she is serious about. The way the line is delivered should tell you everything about how Momo perceives the situation. She is basically leaving it up to chance and thinks they can worry about it down the line.
Reiba... why are you purposely acting like a moron? No really, you are trying to get a rise out of me right? The page you posted is about Momo saying even Shamiko can beat such a ridiculously weak familiar... you know... a familiar even a normal human can beat? What in the actual heck implies here that Momo wants Shamiko to be able to last in a REAL fight?? This is not a real fight Reiba. This is a joke battle Reiba. Momo doesn't even consider that thing a threat, which is why she is so relaxed. Did you forget that Sakura would not even make a familiar that seriously hurts people? Nothing and I repeat NOTHING about that fight was real or serious. Please never use this stupid argument again. And I know you will anyway, because you just can't stop overglorifying this one moment where Shamiko "won" a "fight".
rubs temples
Okay listen. The growth you showed in the first comparison is between her not having the Whatever Staff and getting it. That's stupid.
The second comparison is somewhat better, but you are forgetting that that's only in dreams.
What you don't get AT ALL is that I never said Shamiko can't improve or become stronger... I am saying she has a hard cap, a super obvious limit and will never be STRONG. No matter how much she trains or improves, Shamiko has a very hard limit on both physical and mana growth. Her imagination is limited by her intelligence and the moment she becomes too smart her Staff doesn't work. Even if she trains millions of years she will never ever beat a Magical Girl in real life through conventional means. That is what I mean by she will never become super strong. Not that she can never improve. Even a person who lost both their legs and is in a wheelchair can train their arms to carry their body, but they will never win against someone who trained their still healthy legs. Get it? Get it? Get it? No? I don't care anymore.
Ultimately your entire argument (as usual) boils down to: "BuT IT cOulD hAPPen! ItO CuOlD just ChaNge HeR MInd!"
Bleh. I hate discussing things with you because of nonsense like that.
@Loona_Roses
Finally someone who talks some sense.
WARNING: This comment came from an idiotic thought of "I'm on vacation, what the hell! I'm going to answer part by part. Since I have a free time, we have to waste it!" and I end up making beyond what I had foreseen. Discretion is recommended (Well, not really. you Probably ignored this, because this time, I've exaggerate A LOT with the size 😅)
edit: You know what? I feel depressed that nothing from my comment is seen after all the time it took me to write it. So I'll leave a part uncovered.
“Of course the interloper has to rear its ugly head at the end ...”
😄
“Facepalms
Reiba ... Reiba, Reiba, Reiba. Por favor. You are supposed to prove that the boss thing is NOT a joke, yet you post proof WHY it is a joke. THis hurts my head so much. ”
I'm confused. Where is the argument in this sentence?
"Sakura only casually said on the side" Oh yeah and protect the town too if you want. " What about that sounds like she is leaving her in charge ??! "
The fact that Momo and Shamiko DIDN'T take that as a joke. The fact that Sakura just after saying that told her "I have high hopes for you" in a serius way, making it clear that what she had commissioned to Shamiko was serious. The fact that for the rest of the manga nobody contradicted in words or actions that what Sakura said (regardless of the tone) was serious. For say some things.
“She is basically telling Shamiko to help them because she knows it will make her stronger / more experienced and understand the world better.”
... I think this time it's my turn. FACEPALM.
Did you even read the same scene as me? Let me remind you what Sakura REALLY told Shamiko “and while YUO’RE (YOU) at it, How about protecting the town as well!”. Sakura didn't tell Shamiko "tell Momo and Mikan to protect" or "Help them" she said "do it yourself". In fact, I am beginning to doubt that you even read the chapter in the first place. If you had done that, you would know that Shamiko was clearly aware that Sakura was serious about leaving the city in her charge and that is why she tried to convince Momo to protect instead of her, because Shamiko considered her someone more capable, but Momo rejected that idea and told Shamiko that she should do it https://mangadex.org/chapter/737813/13 “Sakura's request to protect this town… GIVE IT (do it, not me) A SHOT, look at it as a way TO GET STRONGER (I point to this part as another moment in the series when Momo made it clear that she wants Shamiko to become someone strong). ” After that, seeing that Shamiko didn't trust herself enough, she told her that she HELP (She to Shamiko, not the other way) her to protect the city https://mangadex.org/chapter/737813/16 “I ' LL help out ... ”only then, knowing that she would have Momo on her side, Shamiko ACCEPT TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR PROTECTING THE CITY https://mangadex.org/chapter/737813/17“ I'LL give it (I will, I will it) a shop if Momo's Willing to LEND A HAND(to me) ”. Do I explain it clearly enough or should I bring pears and apples?
“It was treated as a joke here by how casual and irresponsible Sakura acts by just putting that in there like it's a bonus option.”
Sakura said it casually, yes, but that was NOT treated as a joke by the series or (and most importantly) by the characters. As I explained above.
"How you could ever misconstrue it as her actually telling Shamiko to take over her job, I cannot possibly fathom."
What I wonder is, how can you not understand that Sakura seriously did tell Shamiko to take over her work, when the series, the characters and (if my memory don´t fails) the summaries themselves in the places where you can ask for the manga in physicist make it clear to you in the most direct way possible?
"Empty"
? Why did you skip this part?
“Momo's training is based on scenarios where Shamiko is alone and has to somehow wait until Momo or any of her friends come to save her”
"Examples?"
Ok.. Doesn't matter. I assume that you couldn't find any example and you realized that what you were saying was a lie.
"NOTHING"
???????? WHAT THE- Why did you skip this part?!
“Ugallu: ... the boss of this town? this person?
Ugallu: how can somebody with such a thin tail be your boss?
Ugallu: The queen of the night?
Momo: ur ... SHE’S THE BOSS for the time being ...
Momo wasn't lying or kidding here. Why do you think she was so ashamed? She was ashamed to admit that someone so weak was her boss, but she couldn't deny it because it was true, that was the joke. ”
That was my main and most sustained example (the only one that I explains, in fact). The others were just extras. Why did you ignore the most important? ... I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but if I am sincere, the impression that this gives to me (the fact that you have specifically answered the weakest examples and excluded the strongest) is that you couldn't think of anything to refute this part, but you didn't want to admit that I was right so you omitted it on purpose waiting for me to ignore it.
Okay. Honestly, as this example unequivocally proves my point (at least if in a hypothetical future response of yours you can't refute it), I can simply mention it again and move on to the next part ... but since I decided to "destroy" all your response.
“The entire Ugallu calling her boss thing IS A JOKE. Ugallu sees Shamiko as the boss because she organized everyone to make Ugallu's body. She is the only one who calls her boss and it's not supposed to be taken seriously. "
YES. If it is supposed to be taken seriously. As you say, Ugallu considers Shamiko her boss, whether for whatever reason, or if she the only one (which is not the case) or not, she SERIOUSLY considers Shamiko her boss, and you can see that by how Ugallo treats Shamiko and for its her behavior in general. I don't understand why you say it's a joke. Explain to me which the grace is. Explain to me why I shouldn't take it seriously. You took your time to do that when I mentioned the scene with Sakura. Why don't you do it now? ... unless you can't, of course.
“THE LINE YOU POSTED HERE:
Momo: so boss, what's up next?
Shamiko: are you looking down on me?
Momo: I am not looking down on you.
Momo: It was thanks to you that Ugallu has found a place where she can exist.
Momo: I don't think that ... you've done anything wrong
is the proof that it is taken as a lighthearted joke. Momo is first teasing Shamiko and then reassuring her that she doesn't have to feel so patronized by it, because she did something good and earned Ugallu's respect. Momo doesn't actually think Shamiko is anyone's boss, she is just saying that Shamiko earned the right to be respected for doing something for Ugallu and that she should take more pride in helping people. ”
That Momo called Shamiko her boss wasn't a joke. Momo was being honest. I could understand (more or less) that you said that it was a joke if it weren't because before Momo also called Shamiko her boss and he wasn't kidding ... oh, it's true ... you skip that part.
“That was lip service.”
And to say that, you are based on?
“I don't even have much to add.”
Oh. In nothing. The old reliable.
“Momo was just giving Shamiko lip service to cheer her up”
She wanted to lift Shamiko's spirits. I agree in that, but, why do you assume that she was lying? How do you know she wasn't being honest?
“Both of them know it won't happen,”
I insist. Are you based on something other than your own interpretations?
"But Momo is saying" Doesn't matter, something could happen that will make it all work out "
Momo saying that she waiting until Shamiko becomes a demon (and therefore, she wants that it happen). she doesn't attempt to express anything more than that, either directly or indirectly.
“Momo doesn't ever act so casual about things she is serious about”
That was an intimate moment between Momo and Shamiko, obviously she was going to act more casual. And yes, Momo has shown before that she can be serious, casual and honest at the same time. You can see this? It is called an example. It serves to prove that what you are saying is not just empty words https://mangadex.org/chapter/698530/7 You should try it one day.
“The way the line is delivered should tell you everything about how Momo perceives the situation.”
It says. But it doesn't tell me what you are saying.
“She is basically leaving it up to chance and thinks they can worry about it down the line.”
It's like you say. But do you know what is that thing that they think they can leave at random and that which they will think about in the future? How to make Shamiko become a strong demon. Where do you see that Momo is saying or implying? "We will find ANOTHER solution, I don't know how or which one but we are" She is saying that they will find a way to get Shamiko to become a strong demon. Stop overthinking about things.
Reiba ... why are you acting on purpose like a jerk?"
I'm confused. Where is the argument in this sentence? X2
"No, seriously, you're trying to get me off, right?"
No. And I thought you said you weren't angry. Honestly, you have a fairly short temper if you get angry just by hearing bad arguments (well. Bad according to you)
"The page you published is about Momo saying that even Shamiko can beat a relative so ridiculously weak ... you know ... a relative that even a normal human can beat."
I sigh .I don't know why, but I'm not surprised that you don't understand my true point.
“What the hell here implies that Momo wants Shamiko to last in a REAL fight? "
Man, by definition it was a real battle, if we speak technically. But that was not my point. My point was that Momo took advantage of that opportunity to train Shamiko. She take advantage that they had a weak rival ahead to try to improve Shamiko's sense of combat (and this is not debatable. If she didn't want Shamiko to improve her sense of combat, then she would have said what was the familiar's weak point from the beginning. Shamiko even call her "coach") Let me remind you what you said "She never intended to make Shamiko defend herself in battle, that's an impossible dream". If this were true, then Momo shouldn't be trying to train Shamiko in that scene (because the purpose of training her is to her to fight in the future), THAT was my point.
“This is not a real Reiba fight. This is a Reiba battle prank. Momo doesn't even consider that thing a threat, that's why she's so relaxed. Did you forget that Sakura wouldn't even make a relative who seriously hurts people? Nothing and I don't repeat ANYTHING about the fight being real or serious. "
This whole part is, as I told you, a total misunderstanding of my true argument.
"Please, never use this stupid argument again."
If the situation arises, I will do it.
"And I know that you will do it anyway, because you can't stop over-swallowing this moment when Shamiko" won "a" fight. "
God, was that discussion really so traumatic? I repeat to you my point is NOT "Momo leave her have a serious fight" is "Momo is training her so she can have a serious fight in the future".
“Rubs temples
Okay listen. The growth you showed in the first comparison is between her not having the Whatever Staff and getting it. That's stupid. ”
Why? The staff was a power-up. One who came out of nowhere without warning and made Shamiko more powerful. What tells us that something similar couldn't happen again? Anyway, I don't even know why I am discussing that with you, because that was NOT My point. My point was the comparation to the amount of mana and the shots. In the first image Shamiko fires a bullet using Momo's weapon ... and it was pathetic. In the second shoot with the staff and it was something much more considerable. That was not only due to the change of weapons, it was due to the growth of Shamiko's Mana (which Lillith mentioned earlier), that was my point. she passed of only having enough mana to fire a micro-sphere, to have enough mana to perform An attack layers derive something. That is a huge improvement and in a very short time.
“The second comparison is somewhat better, but you are forgetting that that's only in dreams.”
… AND? The most that she could do was that, now she can do what we saw in this chapter. It is an improvement wherever you look.
"What you don't get AT ALL is that I never said Shamiko can't improve or become stronger ... I am saying she has a hard cap, a super obvious limit and will never be STRONG."
And what you don't understand is that I am telling you that this limit is not clear and you have no basis to say that Shamiko cannot become strong.
“No matter how much she trains or improves, Shamiko has a very hard limit on both physical and mana growth”
I sigh ... I'm tired of your unsubstantiated claims
“Her imagination is limited by her intelligence and the moment she becomes too smart her Staff doesn't work.”
Who says that Shamiko needs to be smart in order to use the staff well. In volume 5 I use it quite well being silly.
“That is what I mean by she will never become super strong. Not that she can never improve. Even a person who lost both their legs and is in a wheelchair can train their arms to carry their body, but they will never win against someone who trained their still healthy legs. ”
The problem is that you assume that the factors we have now will be the only ones we will have until the end of the series. I insist As I said before, we are currently at a point where everything can happen. And nothing you have told me denies that a new element could be introduced to the future formula. You are making the mistake of focusing too much on what is there and too little on what could come.
“Get it? Get it? Get it? No? I don't care anymore. ”
This behavior of yours is something I will never understand. Always, you always say "I don't care to talk about this anymore" but the moment someone answers you, instead of ignoring it (as you should do if you really don't care anymore) you answer. Don't you think it's a bit contradictory? Just leave the talk and don't come back if you really don't want to continue and that's it, don't complicate your life so much.
“Ultimately your entire argument (as usual) boils down to:" BuT IT cOulD hAPPen! ItO CuOlD just ChaNge HeR MInd! "
... sorry, when else I use that argument? Honestly, I don't know if that's another one of your ravings or I just don't remember.
"Bleh. I hate discussing things with you because of nonsense like that. ”
I repeat. If you hate them so much, why do you answer me in the first place? If you want to complain to someone, complain to yourself. Okay. Regardless of that, the truth, even if you don't believe it, is that I enjoy our discussions. Even if, I don't deny that write ... things half as big as this bible is exhausting, but if I didn't like it I wouldn't do it in the first place (that's why I don't understand why you always do something you say you hate so much)
Well, I'm going to sleep now. Goodnight.
This is the ironic thing about the statement after all, if Shamiko became strong enough to beat Momo she wouldn't need to be protected anymore. But Momo only wants her to become stronger so Momo can stay strong enough to protect her. It's a farce. An excuse.
It doesn't matter what Momo thinks, I know Momo thinks this but I never considered what Momo thinks at all analyzing the whole deal with the vassal situation, the only thing that matters is what Shamiko thinks, and Shamiko doesn't give a flying damn about being protected by Momo or who protects who. She wants to turn Momo into her vassal because she's worried Momo is pushing herself too hard, she doesn't want to be protected, she wants to fight by her side, not behind her, that's why I believe eventually she'll be strong enough to do it (with her magic, not fists, forget about fists, Momo's words are discarded), because not being able to support Momo's ether body is the only thing stopping her from being together with Momo.
There's also the whole deal with vassal = wife that you would know if you read my prediction.
@Reiba1925
As I mentioned at the top of my last post I won't reply to this topic anymore. You brought that on yourself.
I regret even reading the first paragraph, because holy shit, if I actually was stupid enough to let myself get dragged into this point by point debate (of which almost all of yours are bad and/or painfully missing the point of my words) I would probably hang myself.
@KZO
But... but you were the one who brought up Momo declaring Shamiko has to beat her in the first place... why... how... Is this the real life?
I did read your prediction. I think most of it is nonsense. The vassal = wife thing is mostly true if we believe Seiko, but that is completely irrelevant. I think you somehow happen to mix up two very different plot points there.
1. Shamiko becoming the strongest and beating Momo
2. Momo becoming Shamiko's vassal so they can be married
Those two are not the same thing and not dependent (pun intended) on each other. It's what I was trying to tell you the entire time. Shamiko will never be that strong, but Momo only made that as an excuse in the first place. In the end the true solution will be something entirely disconnected from power or fighting as it always was.
@BugDemon
"As I mentioned at the top of my last post I won't reply to this topic anymore"
What you are writing is an answer, you know?
"I regret even reading the first paragraph, because holy shit, if I actually was stupid enough to let myself get dragged into this point by point debate (of which almost all of yours are bad and/or painfully missing the point of my words) I would probably hang myself."
See? This is what I was talking about before. This attitude of “Everything you say is stupid. I'm done with you. It isn't worth giving you one more minute of attention… And I'm gonna tell you that in the face while I reaffirm that everything you say is wrong without giving any more reasons why! ”It's not healthy. It also doesn't look good. It makes you look like someone obsessed with always being right, that couldn't bear to be wrong about something and that, therefore, always have to make it clear that was right all the time. Bro / Sis, I tell you in a good way, if you don't want to keep talking about something then just ignore the person and get on with your life. You don't have to stress yourself or ruin your image unnecessarily.
Anyway. I thank you for taking the time to read my answer (I'm not kidding). Really I appreciate it. Have a good day 😄.
@Reiba1925
Pedantic as ever. Wrong as ever. I made a statement about the situation, I did not reply to the topic.
I don't know if you were talking about anything before, because I didn't read most of your post, as I already mentioned. You made a long reply to a topic I said I wouldn't keep talking about... so it's your own fault, not mine. If I ignored you, you would keep doing it. So I had to make it clear. I don't care about my image, only about the story. The reason you in particular always get on my nerves is that you actually state your opinions as fact and then accuse me of doing the same, while also making unending logical leaps in almost every single sentence you type. It's exhausting.
@BugDemon
I sigh... Ok. Since clearly you want to continue talking, I will give you your wish.
“Pedantic as ever. Wrong as ever. ”
Stubborn as always. Misinterpreting everything I say as ever.
“I made a statement about the situation, I did not reply to the topic.”
I did not say that you were responding to the topic, I said that you were responding to ME. Something that by the way, you should not do if you are as fed up as you say.
“I don't know if you were talking about anything before, because I didn't read most of your post, as I already mentioned.”
Also you: (of which almost all of yours are bad and / or painfully missing the point of my words)
Wasn't I supposed to understand "which almost all" as you read them all? Did you mean "which almost all" of the first paragraph? ... sorry then 😅.
“You made a long reply to a topic I said I wouldn't keep talking about ... so it's your own fault, not mine”
You said you wouldn't reply. I said that I was answering you knowing that you probably wouldn't even read my answer (and therefore there would be no answer). I didn't incite you to do anything, I didn't ask you for an answer and I wasn't looking for one. why it's my fault?
“If I ignored you, you would keep doing it”
Wrong. If you hadn't responded. There would be nothing more to add and therefore, I would STOP because the conversation would be OVER. Take this answer as an example. It would never have existed if you had not responded to my previous comment. An answer is an invitation to talk after all.
“So I had to make it clear. I don't care about my image, only about the story. ”
Oh. That explains a lot.
“The reason you in particular always get on my nerves is that you actually state your opinions as fact and then accuse me of doing the same,”
No. I accuse you of taking your opinions as facts without giving any proof of why they are. The times I have said "this is so" was because I gave an example or an explanation of why I thinks that was so. In addition, you always take extremist positions in our discussions. For you, something is always one way or not, without midpoints, that simple. I will not deny that I have come to take equal positions of extremists (memories of the succubus war) But I have also come to say "what you say may be so or not" As in this discussion.
“While also making unending logical leaps in almost every single sentence you type. It's exhausting. ”
At this point I should look like a scratched record ... If you hate to argue with me DON'T. DO. IT. It seems to me the most logical thing in the world. In fact, this is what I did in many of our past discussions when I got tired of debating. And you know what happened? THE DISCUTION ENDED. Let me repeat my advice. If you want to end an Discution, you don't respond (pay attention / encourage feedback) to that person. You leave, ignore anything else he/she tell you, and let the topic die. That's it.
Finally, if my behavior bothers you I am sorry, it really isn't my intention. But at the end of the day the cause of your discomfort is yourself for approaching instead of move away.
Frankly, I think not even Ito herself knows where this is going to end up.
I recall reading an interview with her somewhere; she was saying that she had planned to end it with volume 3 and move on to something else; then she got the pitch for the anime, and she's been basically winging it ever since.
@shaeli
Finally! Someone who speaks my language! 😂
"I recall reading an interview with her somewhere; she was saying that she had planned to end it with volume 3 and move on to something else; then she got the pitch for the anime, and she's been basically winging it ever since."
The funny thing is that, that means that originally Ito planned to leave the relationship between Shamiko and Momo in ambiguity ... We are very fortunate that the manga sold well 😅.
edit:
Someone posted that interview in one of the 4chan translation threads. But, I don't remember which one.
edit again:
Someone in pastabin posted the answers Ito gave in the interview.
https://pastebin.com/c8Kui9Gn
@Reiba1925
No, actually, I think that it would not have been ambiguous if it had ended on volume 3 (as rather there were subtle changes to allow the story to continue)
Basically the end would have been after finding Sakura, likely with an easier way to bring her back (maybe even right away) and with Momo's transformation into Shamiko's vassal not being temporary but permanent. Then with Lilith not getting interrupted when trying to reveal Momo's feelings, thing could have gone smoothly to allow them to sort things out just right before the end.
Well, it's an hypothetical case so it's impossible to know what was the real plan, but at least I think it would not have been hard to tie lose ends.
But I'm definitely glad the story continues, I feel it's getting richer instead of just stretched.
