Machikado Mazoku
- Thread starter MangaDex
- Start date
i can confirm the spoiler that BugDemon mentioned btw, this is the corresponding pic:
(BIG SPOILER)
(BIG SPOILER)
https://s1.desu-usergeneratedcontent.xyz/a/image/1562/87/1562870845306.jpg
TL by Shamilator from /a/:
Shamiko: It is starting to scare me
Shamiko: to rely on this power just from how overwhelming it is
Shamiko: It all went well...
Shamiko: maybe I have gone too far...
Shamiko: I mean, I am overwriting people's feelings...
Momo: Shamiko,
Momo: have you ever selfishly dabbled with my dreams?
Shamiko: wha wha
Shamiko: whawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawasdadadadatabout
Momo: That was a trick question
Momo: I knew it, there's more to it than that...
Shamiko: I'm... I'm soury for selfishly getting into your dream and having selfishly cleaned your dream up
Shamiko: I may have subconsciously brainwashed you
Shamiko: this is just way way too powerful
Momo: You naughty demon you... you need to work on that
Shamiko: I knew it. I am really no good....
Shamiko: You are going to throw me like a skipping stone, aren't you
Shamiko: You're gonna have me skip along the surface of the water
Momo: Don't assume, demon
Momo: pheh!!
Momo: Even if you didn't use your power on me,
Momo: I would have absolutely come to like you either way, Shamiko!
Momo: You've always do your best, you're fun to watch
Momo: ... and you're cute too
Momo: that and everything that you've done...
Momo: have only given other people more happiness, Shamiko
Momo: I don't think you've done anything wrong
Momo: Don't you let anyone tell you that you've done anything wrong
Shamiko: so... ah... well...
Momo: ... ok, brainwashing is done.
Shamiko: ...huh?
TL by Shamilator from /a/:
Shamiko: It is starting to scare me
Shamiko: to rely on this power just from how overwhelming it is
Shamiko: It all went well...
Shamiko: maybe I have gone too far...
Shamiko: I mean, I am overwriting people's feelings...
Momo: Shamiko,
Momo: have you ever selfishly dabbled with my dreams?
Shamiko: wha wha
Shamiko: whawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawhawasdadadadatabout
Momo: That was a trick question
Momo: I knew it, there's more to it than that...
Shamiko: I'm... I'm soury for selfishly getting into your dream and having selfishly cleaned your dream up
Shamiko: I may have subconsciously brainwashed you
Shamiko: this is just way way too powerful
Momo: You naughty demon you... you need to work on that
Shamiko: I knew it. I am really no good....
Shamiko: You are going to throw me like a skipping stone, aren't you
Shamiko: You're gonna have me skip along the surface of the water
Momo: Don't assume, demon
Momo: pheh!!
Momo: Even if you didn't use your power on me,
Momo: I would have absolutely come to like you either way, Shamiko!
Momo: You've always do your best, you're fun to watch
Momo: ... and you're cute too
Momo: that and everything that you've done...
Momo: have only given other people more happiness, Shamiko
Momo: I don't think you've done anything wrong
Momo: Don't you let anyone tell you that you've done anything wrong
Shamiko: so... ah... well...
Momo: ... ok, brainwashing is done.
Shamiko: ...huh?
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@Reiba1925
Wrong. Don't use the Spanish subs as proof here. Translations are far from accurate. No other sub and especially not the Japanese dub say succubus.
@gumshoe
It was never once stated in the entire manga that they are succubi or incubi. They are dream demons and that is the only actual term ever being used. People just hastily make that assumption because of surface factors. Her powers actually don't fit a succubus.
Shamiko and Lilith don't have:
-charm powers
-life/energy drain
-Satyr like appearance
Those are all essential succubus traits they don't have. The literal only traits they share with a succubus are:
-dream dive ability
-horns
Nothing else. Skimpy outfits have nothing to do with succubi, that's just from sexualized fiction. Their tails are not at all like a succubus tail, more imp-like actually. Lilith even specifically says the "dream dive" ability they have is not their true power. Their true power is to directly go into the subconscious of people, the dream is just the easiest access point. There is a possibility that their clan is somewhat inspired by succubi, but a succubus without life drain is basically a cheap knock-off. There is also a theory going around that all the conceptions people have about succubi in the MachiMazo world were mistaken because of Lilith. Lilith is an exhibitionist, so people thought dream demons like her are all about sexual attraction and then made up the demon species "succubus" in that image. Lilith herself is a witch of darkness.
There are in fact dozens of demons and monster species that have the ability to invade human dreams. People see a skimpy design and dream manipulation and automatically thought of succubi, but that is hasty.
Wrong. Don't use the Spanish subs as proof here. Translations are far from accurate. No other sub and especially not the Japanese dub say succubus.
@gumshoe
It was never once stated in the entire manga that they are succubi or incubi. They are dream demons and that is the only actual term ever being used. People just hastily make that assumption because of surface factors. Her powers actually don't fit a succubus.
Shamiko and Lilith don't have:
-charm powers
-life/energy drain
-Satyr like appearance
Those are all essential succubus traits they don't have. The literal only traits they share with a succubus are:
-dream dive ability
-horns
Nothing else. Skimpy outfits have nothing to do with succubi, that's just from sexualized fiction. Their tails are not at all like a succubus tail, more imp-like actually. Lilith even specifically says the "dream dive" ability they have is not their true power. Their true power is to directly go into the subconscious of people, the dream is just the easiest access point. There is a possibility that their clan is somewhat inspired by succubi, but a succubus without life drain is basically a cheap knock-off. There is also a theory going around that all the conceptions people have about succubi in the MachiMazo world were mistaken because of Lilith. Lilith is an exhibitionist, so people thought dream demons like her are all about sexual attraction and then made up the demon species "succubus" in that image. Lilith herself is a witch of darkness.
There are in fact dozens of demons and monster species that have the ability to invade human dreams. People see a skimpy design and dream manipulation and automatically thought of succubi, but that is hasty.
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@BugDemon
"Her powers actually don't fit a succubus."
"The literal only traits they share with a succubus are:
-dream dive ability
-horns"
"Skimpy outfits have nothing to do with succubi, that's just from sexualized fiction"
Wrong. https://mangadex.org/chapter/721134/1
In Japan (as I understand it) they also refer to succubus as "demons of dreams". They even use the same word Lillith uses to refer to their lineage (the latter is something that an Anon that knew how to speak Japanese mentioned in one discussion I saw a long time ago in a 4chan thread)
I put the image in Spanish because I didn't find a image of that scene in English, but I remember that they also translated the word "dream demon" as succubus EDIT: I found it! https://i.imgur.com/LgadGk8.jpg
"Her powers actually don't fit a succubus."
"The literal only traits they share with a succubus are:
-dream dive ability
-horns"
"Skimpy outfits have nothing to do with succubi, that's just from sexualized fiction"
Wrong. https://mangadex.org/chapter/721134/1
In Japan (as I understand it) they also refer to succubus as "demons of dreams". They even use the same word Lillith uses to refer to their lineage (the latter is something that an Anon that knew how to speak Japanese mentioned in one discussion I saw a long time ago in a 4chan thread)
I put the image in Spanish because I didn't find a image of that scene in English, but I remember that they also translated the word "dream demon" as succubus EDIT: I found it! https://i.imgur.com/LgadGk8.jpg
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@Reiba1925
Your evidence is self-referential and makes no sense.
Succubi in ACTUAL REAL LORE don't get stronger the less they wear. So mentioning the Dark Clan's supposed (even that is actually proven wrong later by Shamiko) power to get stronger the less they wear has nothing to do with succubi. You are basically saying "Because I assume they are succubi, their ability to get stronger by wearing less must be a succubus trait". You see why that reasoning is circular?
Refering to succubus as a dream demon is like the general category. Dream demons include succubi, incubi, Alps, several Japanese spirits etc.
The reason you won't find this wrong translation in English manga or any other language is... that it's wrong. It is taking immense liberty by the translators to just assume that dream demon refers to succubus.
EDIT: The Japanese actually use the word succubus directly: サキュバス. Lilith never uses this.
Your evidence is self-referential and makes no sense.
Succubi in ACTUAL REAL LORE don't get stronger the less they wear. So mentioning the Dark Clan's supposed (even that is actually proven wrong later by Shamiko) power to get stronger the less they wear has nothing to do with succubi. You are basically saying "Because I assume they are succubi, their ability to get stronger by wearing less must be a succubus trait". You see why that reasoning is circular?
Refering to succubus as a dream demon is like the general category. Dream demons include succubi, incubi, Alps, several Japanese spirits etc.
The reason you won't find this wrong translation in English manga or any other language is... that it's wrong. It is taking immense liberty by the translators to just assume that dream demon refers to succubus.
EDIT: The Japanese actually use the word succubus directly: サキュバス. Lilith never uses this.
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@BugDemon
"Succubi in ACTUAL REAL LORE don't get stronger the less they wear."
And according to the vampire's lore, they cannot enter in a house to which they were not invited, but see "Underworld." They also are supposed to die in sunlight, but see "twilight."
"Even that is actually proven wrong later by Shamiko"
Wrong again. Shamiko proved that that was true in volume 5, when she tried to redesign her form of crisis management.
"You are basically saying -Because I assume they are succubi, their ability to get stronger by wearing less must be a succubus trait-"
Actually I am saying the opposite. Because their powers and other characteristics are similar to those of a succubus, and there is no evidence that they are not, then it is not erroneous to say that they are succubus. You know, if something make "meow",looks like a cat and there is nothing to indicate that it is not a cat, then it is a cat.
What evidence do you have to say that they are not succubus? Your only argument is "they do not meet all the characteristics, and they never used the word succubus specifically to refer to their species."
Each history adapts the lore of myths differently. They add, change or eliminate different things making the creatures they portray end up having discrepancies with their myths of origin (as in the examples I gave at the beginning), but they still are the same creatures. Why? because they still fit in the framework previously established by their respective myths. Vampires in "underworld" don't need permission to enter a place, don't fear religious symbols, don't hate the garlic, but they still fed on human blood and die under sunlight, so they still don't get out of the concept of what a vampire is.
The same happens here. Maybe Lillith's clan does not meet all the characteristics, but it fulfills many of these (they are demons. They have horns. They have tails. They can go into dreams. Their specialty seems to be to manipulate people. Their battle forms expose a lot of skin) and others that are associable (not matter that it is not part of the mythology of a succubus, you cannot deny that becoming stronger when exposing your skin does fit with a succubus) therefore, they are not out of what It can be considered a succubus, so why not take them as such?
And even if Lillith doesn't refer to herself or her clan as succubus directly,that is not necessary for the audience to know it, is enough with the similarities that MM show between the lines.
Honestly ... it surprises me that you refutes that they are succubus with the argument "if they have not affirmed it, then is false" when in our other discussion you argued that the logical deductions were as good as the facts
"Succubi in ACTUAL REAL LORE don't get stronger the less they wear."
And according to the vampire's lore, they cannot enter in a house to which they were not invited, but see "Underworld." They also are supposed to die in sunlight, but see "twilight."
"Even that is actually proven wrong later by Shamiko"
Wrong again. Shamiko proved that that was true in volume 5, when she tried to redesign her form of crisis management.
"You are basically saying -Because I assume they are succubi, their ability to get stronger by wearing less must be a succubus trait-"
Actually I am saying the opposite. Because their powers and other characteristics are similar to those of a succubus, and there is no evidence that they are not, then it is not erroneous to say that they are succubus. You know, if something make "meow",looks like a cat and there is nothing to indicate that it is not a cat, then it is a cat.
What evidence do you have to say that they are not succubus? Your only argument is "they do not meet all the characteristics, and they never used the word succubus specifically to refer to their species."
Each history adapts the lore of myths differently. They add, change or eliminate different things making the creatures they portray end up having discrepancies with their myths of origin (as in the examples I gave at the beginning), but they still are the same creatures. Why? because they still fit in the framework previously established by their respective myths. Vampires in "underworld" don't need permission to enter a place, don't fear religious symbols, don't hate the garlic, but they still fed on human blood and die under sunlight, so they still don't get out of the concept of what a vampire is.
The same happens here. Maybe Lillith's clan does not meet all the characteristics, but it fulfills many of these (they are demons. They have horns. They have tails. They can go into dreams. Their specialty seems to be to manipulate people. Their battle forms expose a lot of skin) and others that are associable (not matter that it is not part of the mythology of a succubus, you cannot deny that becoming stronger when exposing your skin does fit with a succubus) therefore, they are not out of what It can be considered a succubus, so why not take them as such?
And even if Lillith doesn't refer to herself or her clan as succubus directly,that is not necessary for the audience to know it, is enough with the similarities that MM show between the lines.
Honestly ... it surprises me that you refutes that they are succubus with the argument "if they have not affirmed it, then is false" when in our other discussion you argued that the logical deductions were as good as the facts
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@Reiba1925
It's getting pretty long, so I'll put it all into a spoiler now.
It's getting pretty long, so I'll put it all into a spoiler now.
"And according to the vampire's lore"
Irrelevant. This is about you using traits that are not classically part of succubi as evidence for them being succubi. It's circular reasoning. I don't deny that legends can differ depending on the culture and author.
"Shamiko proved that that was true in volume 5"
"Actually I am saying the opposite."
No you are not. Your only evidence until now has been a trait that is not succubus related. I already disproved everything else. Actually make an argument or don't reply. They don't LOOK like succubi, that is one of my main points (succubi look like female satyrs, you know, half goat?), they don't have succubus abilities except for ONE. If you actually believe a succubus without life drain is even a succubus you are stretching beyond reasonable limits.
"What evidence do you have to say that they are not succubus? "
I will throw your sprevious argument right back at you. "If it doesn't look, act or meow like a cat, why call it a cat?" You are the one who is behind on providing evidence, so don't act like I need to somehow do the impossible and prove they can't be succubi at all. There is no evidence that they are, that doesn't mean they can't be technically. If Ito changed up the way succubi in her story work then that's fine. I already acknowledged that such a theory exists. It could be backwards thing of people making up succubus lore based on Lilith or it could be that Ito's version is merely superficially inspired by succubi, but she usually is pretty accurate to real lore.
You are basically asking me to disprove that Mikan is not secretly a mandarin that was transformed into a human with magic and brainwashed her parents to think they conceived her. Mikan is obsessed with citrus and wears citrus related stuff and seems to almost exlcusively eat citrus related products, so she must be an actual mikan. Come on, prove me wrong!
Ugh... one last time.
1. "They are demons." Irrelevant, so are all the other monsters that can dream dive.
2. "They have horns." Really? That is your evidence? Let me give you a little support here for the sake of it. They have GOAT horns which is the only physical trait they actually share with succubi. So I will concede that one.
3. "They have tails". Pointless. A bear has paws, yet it's not a cat. Succubus tails don't look like imp tails. Entirely wrong category.
4. "They can go into dreams". Indeed they can and that is their only succubus related power. Though they don't use it for the purpose a real succubus would. They don't steal life energy. That is literally the only reason succubi have that power.
5. "Their specialty seems to be manipulating people" A trait almost all demons share. Except Succubi use their charm power for that, which Lilith clan does not possess.
6. "You cannot deny-" Yes I can. A succubus is always naked and does not gain any power from wearing less. They don't even need to attract men with their bodies, because their charm ability automatically makes them attracted to them. The skimpy outfits are entirely made up for sexual fantasies by people who don't understand succubi. Relation between power and nudity is non-existent. The only use it has is not even explored, so what other than fanservice is the actual purpose of that ability? It sure isn't succubus related.
There is almost zero evidence for them being succubi. Nothing that can survive even surface level scrutiny. Unless Ito specifically comes out and says they are based on/are succubi, it is more reasonable to assume they are not. I am not even opposed to the idea that Ito made a more interesting new form of that demon species.
But you have the gall to throw "logical deductions" into the discussion when your reasoning is devoid of either.
If this was not enough to get my point across, nothing will. Therefore I am done.
Irrelevant. This is about you using traits that are not classically part of succubi as evidence for them being succubi. It's circular reasoning. I don't deny that legends can differ depending on the culture and author.
"Shamiko proved that that was true in volume 5"
Except Kiki Kanri Mk.II covers her entire body and is a nigh invincible defense. So you are wrong. Kiki Kanri is all about stat distribution and altering the form. Lilith has a different idea of how to use it than Shamiko because she is a exhibitionist, she designed it that way.
"Actually I am saying the opposite."
No you are not. Your only evidence until now has been a trait that is not succubus related. I already disproved everything else. Actually make an argument or don't reply. They don't LOOK like succubi, that is one of my main points (succubi look like female satyrs, you know, half goat?), they don't have succubus abilities except for ONE. If you actually believe a succubus without life drain is even a succubus you are stretching beyond reasonable limits.
"What evidence do you have to say that they are not succubus? "
I will throw your sprevious argument right back at you. "If it doesn't look, act or meow like a cat, why call it a cat?" You are the one who is behind on providing evidence, so don't act like I need to somehow do the impossible and prove they can't be succubi at all. There is no evidence that they are, that doesn't mean they can't be technically. If Ito changed up the way succubi in her story work then that's fine. I already acknowledged that such a theory exists. It could be backwards thing of people making up succubus lore based on Lilith or it could be that Ito's version is merely superficially inspired by succubi, but she usually is pretty accurate to real lore.
You are basically asking me to disprove that Mikan is not secretly a mandarin that was transformed into a human with magic and brainwashed her parents to think they conceived her. Mikan is obsessed with citrus and wears citrus related stuff and seems to almost exlcusively eat citrus related products, so she must be an actual mikan. Come on, prove me wrong!
Ugh... one last time.
1. "They are demons." Irrelevant, so are all the other monsters that can dream dive.
2. "They have horns." Really? That is your evidence? Let me give you a little support here for the sake of it. They have GOAT horns which is the only physical trait they actually share with succubi. So I will concede that one.
3. "They have tails". Pointless. A bear has paws, yet it's not a cat. Succubus tails don't look like imp tails. Entirely wrong category.
4. "They can go into dreams". Indeed they can and that is their only succubus related power. Though they don't use it for the purpose a real succubus would. They don't steal life energy. That is literally the only reason succubi have that power.
5. "Their specialty seems to be manipulating people" A trait almost all demons share. Except Succubi use their charm power for that, which Lilith clan does not possess.
6. "You cannot deny-" Yes I can. A succubus is always naked and does not gain any power from wearing less. They don't even need to attract men with their bodies, because their charm ability automatically makes them attracted to them. The skimpy outfits are entirely made up for sexual fantasies by people who don't understand succubi. Relation between power and nudity is non-existent. The only use it has is not even explored, so what other than fanservice is the actual purpose of that ability? It sure isn't succubus related.
There is almost zero evidence for them being succubi. Nothing that can survive even surface level scrutiny. Unless Ito specifically comes out and says they are based on/are succubi, it is more reasonable to assume they are not. I am not even opposed to the idea that Ito made a more interesting new form of that demon species.
But you have the gall to throw "logical deductions" into the discussion when your reasoning is devoid of either.
If this was not enough to get my point across, nothing will. Therefore I am done.
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