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Machikado Mazoku
- Thread starter MangaDex
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@BugDemon
Ok. Leaving aside the whole theme of "are or are not succubus" for a moment, you are still wrong about what happened in volume 5
Back to the topic. You are misinterpreting what I said again, I never said that the characteristics that I mentioned were evidence that they are succubus, I said that these are characteristics of a succubus.
1 "They are demons." "Irrelevant, so are all the other monsters that can dream a dive." Relevant, because it is something that they share with succubus
2. "They have horns." "Really? Is that your evidence? Let me give you some support here for good. They have CABRA horns, which is the only physical trait they really share with succubi. So I will recognize it." Again, I do not say that it is evidence, I say that it is a characteristic of the lillith clan that they share with the succubus (both have horns). and I reiterate, thateven if the horns of a traditional succubus are diferrent it doesn't matter because Ito could change them to his liking (in fact, if you look closely at Joshua's, Lillith's and shamiko's horns, they had no similarity)
3. "They have tails." "Useless. A bear has legs, but it is not a cat. Succubus tails do not look like imp tails. Category completely wrong." There is a point. as you say, it is still a thing that the succubus possessed.
4. "You can enter dreams." "In fact, they can and that is their only power related to the succubus. Although they don't use it for the purpose, a real succubus would. They do not steal the vital energy. That is literally the only reason why the Succubi have that power." It continues to be a skill that matches succubus, no matter what they use it for.
5. "His specialty seems to be to manipulate people" "A feature that almost all demons share. Except that Succubi uses its power of enchantment for that, which the Lilith clan does not possess."if that is something characteristic of all demons does not matter, it is still a characteristic that owns the succubus, which was my point.
6. "You can't deny-" "Yes, I can. A succubus is always naked and doesn't gain any power by using less. They don't even need to attract men with their bodies, because their ability to charm attracts them automatically. They. Scarce outfits are completely made for sexual fantasies by people who do not understand succubi.The relationship between power and nudity is non-existent.The only use it has is not even explored, so what is not the fan service is the real purpose of that ability? Surely it is not related to the succubus. " I am not sure if you misunderstood what I said again or if I expressed myself terribly last time, but in any case, I was not saying that it was a power related to a succubus, I was saying that it was a power that fits a succubus, a Demon that seduces people.
As I said before, your only argument is "if they have not affirmed it, then it is false." you has not provided any evidence that they are not succubus or a reason why they do not fit within the concept of "Succubus" (in fact, you admit that they may be an alternative version of a succubus, that is the same as say that they are succubus, but not traditional ones), you has only limited to say that my deduction lacks logic. It seems quite logical to me to assume that a demon that shares several characteristics with a succubus, which refers to itself with a term that can be used for succubus, which is feminine and which exposes its skin in combat, is a succubus. For At least, if we haven't been told ANYTHING that says that they are not.
Look, if you don't want to consider Shamiko and lillith succubus, it's fine, but don't defend with cape and sword that they aren't when there has no evidence to support you, especially when it is reasonable to say that they are, based in what was shown in the series.
@GurrenPrime5
Don't let this discussion stop you. As I said, there is no proof given by the series that Lillith and Shamiko are not succubus and in fact it is reasonable to say yes. In the worst case, there is always the "alternative universe" tag
Ok. Leaving aside the whole theme of "are or are not succubus" for a moment, you are still wrong about what happened in volume 5
Before that escene you mention, Shamiko tried to change his Kiki kanri to expose less skin, transforming it in a ski outfit, the result? It became so heavy that she could barely move. Also, remember that in her Kiki Kanri Mk.II mode, she continue wearing the same outfit inside the shell
Back to the topic. You are misinterpreting what I said again, I never said that the characteristics that I mentioned were evidence that they are succubus, I said that these are characteristics of a succubus.
1 "They are demons." "Irrelevant, so are all the other monsters that can dream a dive." Relevant, because it is something that they share with succubus
2. "They have horns." "Really? Is that your evidence? Let me give you some support here for good. They have CABRA horns, which is the only physical trait they really share with succubi. So I will recognize it." Again, I do not say that it is evidence, I say that it is a characteristic of the lillith clan that they share with the succubus (both have horns). and I reiterate, thateven if the horns of a traditional succubus are diferrent it doesn't matter because Ito could change them to his liking (in fact, if you look closely at Joshua's, Lillith's and shamiko's horns, they had no similarity)
3. "They have tails." "Useless. A bear has legs, but it is not a cat. Succubus tails do not look like imp tails. Category completely wrong." There is a point. as you say, it is still a thing that the succubus possessed.
4. "You can enter dreams." "In fact, they can and that is their only power related to the succubus. Although they don't use it for the purpose, a real succubus would. They do not steal the vital energy. That is literally the only reason why the Succubi have that power." It continues to be a skill that matches succubus, no matter what they use it for.
5. "His specialty seems to be to manipulate people" "A feature that almost all demons share. Except that Succubi uses its power of enchantment for that, which the Lilith clan does not possess."if that is something characteristic of all demons does not matter, it is still a characteristic that owns the succubus, which was my point.
6. "You can't deny-" "Yes, I can. A succubus is always naked and doesn't gain any power by using less. They don't even need to attract men with their bodies, because their ability to charm attracts them automatically. They. Scarce outfits are completely made for sexual fantasies by people who do not understand succubi.The relationship between power and nudity is non-existent.The only use it has is not even explored, so what is not the fan service is the real purpose of that ability? Surely it is not related to the succubus. " I am not sure if you misunderstood what I said again or if I expressed myself terribly last time, but in any case, I was not saying that it was a power related to a succubus, I was saying that it was a power that fits a succubus, a Demon that seduces people.
As I said before, your only argument is "if they have not affirmed it, then it is false." you has not provided any evidence that they are not succubus or a reason why they do not fit within the concept of "Succubus" (in fact, you admit that they may be an alternative version of a succubus, that is the same as say that they are succubus, but not traditional ones), you has only limited to say that my deduction lacks logic. It seems quite logical to me to assume that a demon that shares several characteristics with a succubus, which refers to itself with a term that can be used for succubus, which is feminine and which exposes its skin in combat, is a succubus. For At least, if we haven't been told ANYTHING that says that they are not.
Look, if you don't want to consider Shamiko and lillith succubus, it's fine, but don't defend with cape and sword that they aren't when there has no evidence to support you, especially when it is reasonable to say that they are, based in what was shown in the series.
@GurrenPrime5
Don't let this discussion stop you. As I said, there is no proof given by the series that Lillith and Shamiko are not succubus and in fact it is reasonable to say yes. In the worst case, there is always the "alternative universe" tag
lilith is sealed and can't use her powers so we have no idea what she could do. shamiko is weak due of caring two curses and has been taught very little. main power dream dive
i thought she was a succubus because it kept coming to mind as i read along. no one told me such
i thought she was a succubus because it kept coming to mind as i read along. no one told me such
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@Reiba1925
@BugDemon
The way I see it, the best evidence for Lilith and Shamiko being succubi is that the Lilith of Judaeo-Christian theology is usually portrayed as a succubus. That said, not always: Evangelion's Lilith doesn't strike me as a succubus, for example. So basically, we can't be certain one way or the other and the whole argument is moot.
@BugDemon
The way I see it, the best evidence for Lilith and Shamiko being succubi is that the Lilith of Judaeo-Christian theology is usually portrayed as a succubus. That said, not always: Evangelion's Lilith doesn't strike me as a succubus, for example. So basically, we can't be certain one way or the other and the whole argument is moot.
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@GurrenPrime5
In that case, it can be argued if the manga is portraying Lillith (and by extension, her lineage) as a kind of succubs or not, ither directly or indirectly.
Lets say yes, how could we support this claim?
-Lillith is an exivitionist demon who shares a name with a demon recognized by judaeo-Christian theology in several occasions as a succubus.
-Some of they powers are like those of a succubus (regardless of what they use them for or if they have some discrepancies, which, incidentally, can be explained by saying that the author took liberties to adapt them to his taste) and those that are not, are not abilities that are out of place for the type of demon that is a succubu
-They have physical characteristics similar to those of a succube (with their discrepancies that are irrelevant because they can be explained as the vision or the whim of Ito when representing a succubus).
-They are a type of "demon of dreams" according to the words of Lillith.
-they might have more succubus skills or characteristics that we don't know since it hasn't been said yet (we still don't know enough about Lillith and her progeny).
-If the manga is not saying indirectly to the viewer "they are succubus", then why it has never been mentioned that they are not? Instead, we have many facts that, although they are not a direct confirmation, can be taken as indications that They are.
Lets say no, how could we support this claim?
-Lillith has never mentioned being a succubus (true. But it's not the same as claiming not to be a succubus)
-Lillith does not seem to depend on the energy of people to live. (Let me return to "twilight" as an example. In that movie, vampires can walk perfectly in the sunlight and have super powers that have absolutely nothing to do with vampire mythology, why ?, just because the author wanted to ignore they Mythology and that's it, what tells us that Ito didn't do the same here?)
-The characteristics and powers of Lillth and Shamiko are not 100% equal to those of the myths of succubus (I explained why this is irrelevant)
-There are several types of dream demons (Yes. But of all those demons, Lillith and shamiko are closer to a Succubus than to any other)
-If the manga want to saying to the viewer "they are succubus", then why not affirm it directly? (I can think of several reasons. For example, that Kirara does not allow Ito to say it openly in the manga because it would be too inappropriate to say clearly that the sweet protagonist of this manga moe is a demon of sex. Or maybe it is simply that Ito don't want to do it for a "x" reason. To say a few)
As you can see, neither side has definitive and irrefutable evidence (as an affirmation of the author or some character saying "yes/no they are/are not a succubus"), but the "yes" side has the most sustainable arguments (at least for my). Therefore, I personally think that the manga clearly wants to make the viewer infer "they are succubus".
In that case, it can be argued if the manga is portraying Lillith (and by extension, her lineage) as a kind of succubs or not, ither directly or indirectly.
Lets say yes, how could we support this claim?
-Lillith is an exivitionist demon who shares a name with a demon recognized by judaeo-Christian theology in several occasions as a succubus.
-Some of they powers are like those of a succubus (regardless of what they use them for or if they have some discrepancies, which, incidentally, can be explained by saying that the author took liberties to adapt them to his taste) and those that are not, are not abilities that are out of place for the type of demon that is a succubu
-They have physical characteristics similar to those of a succube (with their discrepancies that are irrelevant because they can be explained as the vision or the whim of Ito when representing a succubus).
-They are a type of "demon of dreams" according to the words of Lillith.
-they might have more succubus skills or characteristics that we don't know since it hasn't been said yet (we still don't know enough about Lillith and her progeny).
-If the manga is not saying indirectly to the viewer "they are succubus", then why it has never been mentioned that they are not? Instead, we have many facts that, although they are not a direct confirmation, can be taken as indications that They are.
Lets say no, how could we support this claim?
-Lillith has never mentioned being a succubus (true. But it's not the same as claiming not to be a succubus)
-Lillith does not seem to depend on the energy of people to live. (Let me return to "twilight" as an example. In that movie, vampires can walk perfectly in the sunlight and have super powers that have absolutely nothing to do with vampire mythology, why ?, just because the author wanted to ignore they Mythology and that's it, what tells us that Ito didn't do the same here?)
-The characteristics and powers of Lillth and Shamiko are not 100% equal to those of the myths of succubus (I explained why this is irrelevant)
-There are several types of dream demons (Yes. But of all those demons, Lillith and shamiko are closer to a Succubus than to any other)
-If the manga want to saying to the viewer "they are succubus", then why not affirm it directly? (I can think of several reasons. For example, that Kirara does not allow Ito to say it openly in the manga because it would be too inappropriate to say clearly that the sweet protagonist of this manga moe is a demon of sex. Or maybe it is simply that Ito don't want to do it for a "x" reason. To say a few)
As you can see, neither side has definitive and irrefutable evidence (as an affirmation of the author or some character saying "yes/no they are/are not a succubus"), but the "yes" side has the most sustainable arguments (at least for my). Therefore, I personally think that the manga clearly wants to make the viewer infer "they are succubus".
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@gumshoe
Actually, the blood of magical girls is more like is a catalyst that can be used to stolen they mana and that mana is adsorbed by the seal, not by the sealed demon. (it is explain more in detail in a chapter of volume 5)
And they dont die if lose all they mana, they loss phycical form and enter in of hibernation as a core, like Sakura.
Actually, the blood of magical girls is more like is a catalyst that can be used to stolen they mana and that mana is adsorbed by the seal, not by the sealed demon. (it is explain more in detail in a chapter of volume 5)
And they dont die if lose all they mana, they loss phycical form and enter in of hibernation as a core, like Sakura.
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@GurrenPrime5
Lilith quite literally refers to herself as a witch of darkness, not a succubus. She created all her progeny from her own soul and vessels. She is most definitely not a succubus, at best her descendants were made to be such.
@gumshoe
Magical girl blood does not empower demons. It only breaks the seal, which was specifically put on demons by the Light Clan in the first place, that's why it is so effective.
@Reiba1925
I agree with GurrenPrime5 that this cannot be proven either way. I just see little evidence for it being the case and ultimately only word from god (Ito) can actually prove it. Your reasoning doesn't help the case at all.
Lilith quite literally refers to herself as a witch of darkness, not a succubus. She created all her progeny from her own soul and vessels. She is most definitely not a succubus, at best her descendants were made to be such.
@gumshoe
Magical girl blood does not empower demons. It only breaks the seal, which was specifically put on demons by the Light Clan in the first place, that's why it is so effective.
@Reiba1925
Ugh. I wanted to end this already, but your reasoning is so contrived it hurts my head...
Shamiko can change the Kiki Kanri form any way she wants and even if the core is still Lilith outfit, the actual clothes outside cover her completely. You know waht exposing your skin means, right? It would have to be... exposed? Shamiko is still inexperienced, that's why she can't reliably change the form yet. She never gets stronger from wearing less and she only got heavier because Lilith designed the stupid thing that way. Once Shamiko has full control over the stat distribution she can change it however she wants. It's already able to become stronger by turning into things not at all exposing her skin. Your point is really moot (especially because we all know Ito did this so she could keep having Shamiko in a skimpy outfit). In the first place it makes no sense for the outfit to become heavy from exposing less, it would just not boost her anymore. That's evidence Lilith specifically made that flawed design decision, because she is dork and a failure.
"You are misinterpreting what I said again, I never said that the characteristics that I mentioned were evidence that they are succubus, I said that these are characteristics of a succubus."
That would be well and good if you didn't make the logical error of saying "Look they share these traits with a succubus" and then follow up any contradiction with "Yeah but the author might have changed how that works." right after. You can't have both. With that kind of circular reasoning you are literally irrefutable and your conclusion is foregone!
All the things I said were irrelevant are so, because they are generic traits that don't just apply to succubi. Your entire argument is based on using generic traits and giving them to a very specific type of demon as evidence. That is not how any of this works. It's okay if you theorize or believe it, but please, for the love of god, stop pretending this is real solid evidence or that there is more evidence on your side. There isn't.
Seriously. Listen to yourself. As long as they have a tail that means they share a trait with a succubus? But almost every animal has legs, yet you don't think all animals resemble an elephant. That is such shallow and ridiculous reasoning it's not even worth entertaining. Goat horns are super common among a magnitude of demons. It's one of the most common depictions of demons period. I only conceded that point for novelty's sake because it was the only thing that actually coincided.
" I was saying that it was a power that fits a succubus, a Demon that seduces people."
NO. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Succubi would not have that power and it is not beneficial to them. They do not require anything to seduce a man. This is completely backwards reasoning based on superficial idea of how a succubus works. You are inventing your own rules so that it "fits". It's the shallow idea of having to physically seduce a man, which even with MachiMazo's power set makes no sense. If they wanted to plant suggestions in people's dreams they wouldn't require a skimpy outfit, they can just make them attracted through brainwashing! Anything worn in the real world is irrelevant to their power set.
"It seems quite logical to me to assume that a demon that shares several characteristics with a succubus, which refers to itself with a term that can be used for succubus, which is feminine and which exposes its skin in combat, is a succubus. For At least, if we haven't been told ANYTHING that says that they are not."
Your entire argument is so contrived... it breathes, so that's a trait is shares with a succubus. Checkmate! Please stop. Your reasoning is not logical, it is backwards and emotionally controlled. You want them to be succubi so you twist any shallow comparison points into evidence.
Joshua is male. So it's not a feminine trait anyway. At best he would be an incubus.
Succubi don't go into "combat" in the first place, so a combat form is unecessary. You are once again adding factors that don't exist.
"If the manga is not saying indirectly to the viewer "they are succubus", then why it has never been mentioned that they are not?"
My apologies if I sound crass... but that is the dumbest thing I heard in a while. Do characters regularly mention that they are not aliens from Mars? Why in the heck would they have to address what they are not? That kind of line would only ever come up if someone in-universe actually mistook them for something!
Me being gracious enough to humor the theory that they could be altered succubi is not remotely admitting that they are. If someone so drastically changes how something works, they have to establish that they still ARE that thing. Lilith, Momo or really ANY character in the story would have to refer to them as succubi to even establish that link. Because nothing else you say does.
If I made a vampire that doesn't suck blood, doesn't get harmed by sunlight, garlic, can go into houses without being invited, can cross running water and leaves a reflection in the mirror... and the only trait they share is that they can transform into a wolf or dress in black... would you not ask the author to TELL you that they are in fact vampires? Because 90% of their traits are absent? This is a MUST for the writer.
You cannot seriously pretend that Lilith will reveal later on that despite her explicitely stating before their clan's power is to dream dive , that she suddenly also has a life drain ability. That would have been the first thing she would have Shamiko taught how to use. In fact she would have used that to weaken the seal already. It is completely unreasonable to assume they could pull that out of their ass.
This is an intrinsical part of what makes a succubus a succubus. Life drain is the entire reason they were invented. It was for the sake of explaining the phenomenon of a "wet dream" and being exhausted in the morning. You can't say "succubi being sexualized" is a really strong trait if you ignore the life drain. It's completely infuriating that you pretend this is irrelevant.
If Lilith will come up with a seal or spell that allows such effects, it is something that any magic user will be able to replicate, just like Shamiko can create barrier that repel insects the same way Momo and Mikan can. It will not be a trait related to their ancestry.
I don't want you to ever treat pure speculation as evidence ever again. Something being unknown is not "Support to the claim". Thank you.
Shamiko can change the Kiki Kanri form any way she wants and even if the core is still Lilith outfit, the actual clothes outside cover her completely. You know waht exposing your skin means, right? It would have to be... exposed? Shamiko is still inexperienced, that's why she can't reliably change the form yet. She never gets stronger from wearing less and she only got heavier because Lilith designed the stupid thing that way. Once Shamiko has full control over the stat distribution she can change it however she wants. It's already able to become stronger by turning into things not at all exposing her skin. Your point is really moot (especially because we all know Ito did this so she could keep having Shamiko in a skimpy outfit). In the first place it makes no sense for the outfit to become heavy from exposing less, it would just not boost her anymore. That's evidence Lilith specifically made that flawed design decision, because she is dork and a failure.
"You are misinterpreting what I said again, I never said that the characteristics that I mentioned were evidence that they are succubus, I said that these are characteristics of a succubus."
That would be well and good if you didn't make the logical error of saying "Look they share these traits with a succubus" and then follow up any contradiction with "Yeah but the author might have changed how that works." right after. You can't have both. With that kind of circular reasoning you are literally irrefutable and your conclusion is foregone!
All the things I said were irrelevant are so, because they are generic traits that don't just apply to succubi. Your entire argument is based on using generic traits and giving them to a very specific type of demon as evidence. That is not how any of this works. It's okay if you theorize or believe it, but please, for the love of god, stop pretending this is real solid evidence or that there is more evidence on your side. There isn't.
Seriously. Listen to yourself. As long as they have a tail that means they share a trait with a succubus? But almost every animal has legs, yet you don't think all animals resemble an elephant. That is such shallow and ridiculous reasoning it's not even worth entertaining. Goat horns are super common among a magnitude of demons. It's one of the most common depictions of demons period. I only conceded that point for novelty's sake because it was the only thing that actually coincided.
" I was saying that it was a power that fits a succubus, a Demon that seduces people."
NO. That's what I'm trying to tell you. Succubi would not have that power and it is not beneficial to them. They do not require anything to seduce a man. This is completely backwards reasoning based on superficial idea of how a succubus works. You are inventing your own rules so that it "fits". It's the shallow idea of having to physically seduce a man, which even with MachiMazo's power set makes no sense. If they wanted to plant suggestions in people's dreams they wouldn't require a skimpy outfit, they can just make them attracted through brainwashing! Anything worn in the real world is irrelevant to their power set.
"It seems quite logical to me to assume that a demon that shares several characteristics with a succubus, which refers to itself with a term that can be used for succubus, which is feminine and which exposes its skin in combat, is a succubus. For At least, if we haven't been told ANYTHING that says that they are not."
Your entire argument is so contrived... it breathes, so that's a trait is shares with a succubus. Checkmate! Please stop. Your reasoning is not logical, it is backwards and emotionally controlled. You want them to be succubi so you twist any shallow comparison points into evidence.
Joshua is male. So it's not a feminine trait anyway. At best he would be an incubus.
Succubi don't go into "combat" in the first place, so a combat form is unecessary. You are once again adding factors that don't exist.
"If the manga is not saying indirectly to the viewer "they are succubus", then why it has never been mentioned that they are not?"
My apologies if I sound crass... but that is the dumbest thing I heard in a while. Do characters regularly mention that they are not aliens from Mars? Why in the heck would they have to address what they are not? That kind of line would only ever come up if someone in-universe actually mistook them for something!
Me being gracious enough to humor the theory that they could be altered succubi is not remotely admitting that they are. If someone so drastically changes how something works, they have to establish that they still ARE that thing. Lilith, Momo or really ANY character in the story would have to refer to them as succubi to even establish that link. Because nothing else you say does.
If I made a vampire that doesn't suck blood, doesn't get harmed by sunlight, garlic, can go into houses without being invited, can cross running water and leaves a reflection in the mirror... and the only trait they share is that they can transform into a wolf or dress in black... would you not ask the author to TELL you that they are in fact vampires? Because 90% of their traits are absent? This is a MUST for the writer.
You cannot seriously pretend that Lilith will reveal later on that despite her explicitely stating before their clan's power is to dream dive , that she suddenly also has a life drain ability. That would have been the first thing she would have Shamiko taught how to use. In fact she would have used that to weaken the seal already. It is completely unreasonable to assume they could pull that out of their ass.
This is an intrinsical part of what makes a succubus a succubus. Life drain is the entire reason they were invented. It was for the sake of explaining the phenomenon of a "wet dream" and being exhausted in the morning. You can't say "succubi being sexualized" is a really strong trait if you ignore the life drain. It's completely infuriating that you pretend this is irrelevant.
If Lilith will come up with a seal or spell that allows such effects, it is something that any magic user will be able to replicate, just like Shamiko can create barrier that repel insects the same way Momo and Mikan can. It will not be a trait related to their ancestry.
I don't want you to ever treat pure speculation as evidence ever again. Something being unknown is not "Support to the claim". Thank you.
I agree with GurrenPrime5 that this cannot be proven either way. I just see little evidence for it being the case and ultimately only word from god (Ito) can actually prove it. Your reasoning doesn't help the case at all.
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@BugDemon
Believe it or not, I am also getting tired of writing long answers so I will settle for the fact that at least we agree on some things (saying "they undoubtedly are not succubus" is a mistake, and "that they are succubus is, at the very least, a possibility on the table") and I will leave the topic "beeing or not beeing" before this discussion has 5 pages of duration.
Now returning to a topic that I hope does not produce many paragraphs.
Chapter 59
Believe it or not, I am also getting tired of writing long answers so I will settle for the fact that at least we agree on some things (saying "they undoubtedly are not succubus" is a mistake, and "that they are succubus is, at the very least, a possibility on the table") and I will leave the topic "beeing or not beeing" before this discussion has 5 pages of duration.
Now returning to a topic that I hope does not produce many paragraphs.
Chapter 59
"By volume 5, she's using it practically anytime it might be helpful: in gym class, while taking tests, climbing multiple flights of stairs, and so on. She doesn't really care who sees it anymore, but still wishes it wasn't so revealing — it kind of has to be, though, or she BECOMES SO WEAK she can't even stand up "-tvtropes.org
This is practically a summary of what happened in chapter 59 of the manga. Apart from that there are threads in 4chan where users who know how to speak Japanese and read the chapter commented that this statement was true (I curse myself for not having saved the link of the threads). "Once Shamiko has full control over the stat distribution she can change it however she wants. It's already able to become stronger by turning into things not at all exposing her skin." This is false, why do you think that Shamiko continued to wear the outfit that Lillith designed despite the fact that the whole chapter was based on she hating it and wanted to redesign it? All the other alternative forms that she tried failed resoundingly, in the end, she just used the same form but with higher heels and in KKM.K.II mode she is still use the outfit (revealing) of Lillith inside the shell, so therefore, she continues to wear an outfit that exposes her skin[/ spoiler]
This is practically a summary of what happened in chapter 59 of the manga. Apart from that there are threads in 4chan where users who know how to speak Japanese and read the chapter commented that this statement was true (I curse myself for not having saved the link of the threads). "Once Shamiko has full control over the stat distribution she can change it however she wants. It's already able to become stronger by turning into things not at all exposing her skin." This is false, why do you think that Shamiko continued to wear the outfit that Lillith designed despite the fact that the whole chapter was based on she hating it and wanted to redesign it? All the other alternative forms that she tried failed resoundingly, in the end, she just used the same form but with higher heels and in KKM.K.II mode she is still use the outfit (revealing) of Lillith inside the shell, so therefore, she continues to wear an outfit that exposes her skin[/ spoiler]
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@Reiba1925
"This is false, why do you think that Shamiko continued to wear the outfit that Lillith designed despite the fact that the whole chapter was based on she hating it and wanted to redesign it?"
Why do you not get it? It's like you ignore half the things I say.
If her entire body is covered by Kiki Kanri Mk. II SHE DOESN'T EXPOSE SKIN. That is not how exposing skin works. If it does not get seen or shown off because she is covered in a huge whole-body defensive shell, her skin is not exposed. Are you suggesting that your underwear is exposed when you are wearing clothes over them? Of course not. It proves that the requirement is entirely made up, but the flaw is so ingrained into the design that Shamiko cannot get rid of it yet.
I am not contesting that Lilith terrible outfit only works the way Lilith designed it, but that is because Lilith is an exhibitionist idiot who doesn't understand why it's a bad design and thought this was the easiest way to boost power.
Once Shamiko can actually reliably alter the stats (not just the form) she will be able to change that as well. Her transformations are already the first step towards that. They are stuff Lilith outfit can't even hope to do. Do you understand? Lilith original outfit's stat boost is negligeble and weak. Yet when Shamiko transforms it (without actually wearing any less!) she is 100 times more durable. The whole rule of getting stronger the less she wears is thus made completely void and it only actually weakens her the more she adds to the core outfit.
Why do you not get it? It's like you ignore half the things I say.
If her entire body is covered by Kiki Kanri Mk. II SHE DOESN'T EXPOSE SKIN. That is not how exposing skin works. If it does not get seen or shown off because she is covered in a huge whole-body defensive shell, her skin is not exposed. Are you suggesting that your underwear is exposed when you are wearing clothes over them? Of course not. It proves that the requirement is entirely made up, but the flaw is so ingrained into the design that Shamiko cannot get rid of it yet.
I am not contesting that Lilith terrible outfit only works the way Lilith designed it, but that is because Lilith is an exhibitionist idiot who doesn't understand why it's a bad design and thought this was the easiest way to boost power.
Once Shamiko can actually reliably alter the stats (not just the form) she will be able to change that as well. Her transformations are already the first step towards that. They are stuff Lilith outfit can't even hope to do. Do you understand? Lilith original outfit's stat boost is negligeble and weak. Yet when Shamiko transforms it (without actually wearing any less!) she is 100 times more durable. The whole rule of getting stronger the less she wears is thus made completely void and it only actually weakens her the more she adds to the core outfit.
@BugDemon stupid? didn't lilith prove she might be really smart......when she got the third highest test score based only on her memory from the points shes probably did all category(math,science,ect) . calling her a idiot is harsh shes not really working with a champion with shimiko. which is in doubt because she is carrying a heavy part of the seal
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@gumshoe
There is a difference between booksmarts and intelligence sadly. The reason Lilith did so good in history btw is that she quite literally lived through the era the tests covered.
Lilith constantly messes up spectacularily, bluffs and blusters at the worst times, admits that she doesn't know shit about most stuff that is actually going on around her except for the things directly involving her Clan or powers etc. (she doesn't even know the basics about the Light Clan and was always defeated). She must have been quite a skilled witch once, but those millenia in the statue sure eroded her brain.
She is smarter than Shamiko of course, but that isn't really a high bar. Everyone in the Dark Clan except Ryo are silly dorks. And that's the way it should be. Their innocent stupidity makes them likable.
There is a difference between booksmarts and intelligence sadly. The reason Lilith did so good in history btw is that she quite literally lived through the era the tests covered.
Lilith constantly messes up spectacularily, bluffs and blusters at the worst times, admits that she doesn't know shit about most stuff that is actually going on around her except for the things directly involving her Clan or powers etc. (she doesn't even know the basics about the Light Clan and was always defeated). She must have been quite a skilled witch once, but those millenia in the statue sure eroded her brain.
She is smarter than Shamiko of course, but that isn't really a high bar. Everyone in the Dark Clan except Ryo are silly dorks. And that's the way it should be. Their innocent stupidity makes them likable.
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seeing the english title I can't help but think "HOOKERS"! .... the I see the cover and it reinforces this thought....
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@sleepymonkey
In Japan the term "streetcorner" anything doesn't have prostitution vibes, it signifies someone as poor.
In Japan the term "streetcorner" anything doesn't have prostitution vibes, it signifies someone as poor.
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@gumshoe
You are mostly right except for the last part. The city became a demon haven because Sakura made the barriers. The city didn't have a huge demon population or anything before that.
In fact huge parts of the city legally belong to Sakura, because she bought a bunch of land. It's clearly her personal project.
You are mostly right except for the last part. The city became a demon haven because Sakura made the barriers. The city didn't have a huge demon population or anything before that.
In fact huge parts of the city legally belong to Sakura, because she bought a bunch of land. It's clearly her personal project.
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@gumshoe
@BugDemon
The point system is based on sealing not on extermination.
.
I do not say that it is impossible for there to be cases in which a magical girl murdered a member of the dark clan (although none has been mentioned so far), but that is not the focus of the system and not is the most common case. I doubt that Lillith's fate would have been much worse honestly.
@BugDemon
The point system is based on sealing not on extermination.
When a magical girl seals a certain amount of demons, a wish is granted to her. The browsers incite the magical girls to seal demons, not destroy them. Shirozawa also mentioned that magical girls seek to incapacitate the demons they fight against, not killing them
I do not say that it is impossible for there to be cases in which a magical girl murdered a member of the dark clan (although none has been mentioned so far), but that is not the focus of the system and not is the most common case. I doubt that Lillith's fate would have been much worse honestly.
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