Need LGBT appropriate tags :rejected:

[ShadowofOblivion]

@nutz
while its true I feel the need for it to be there, your argument was that I was trying to say that it should be there only because I feel it should. I agree that I could be better explaining my arguments though.

I'm sorry to say but it's not gonna happen just because you feel it should

Saying it like you did above makes it seem like I am throwing a fit cause it didn't change. Honestly this was a good way for me to gain a perspective of what people on this sites opinions are and I've concluded that for me to be able to convince that there should be a tag I will need a large amount manga that fits the criteria at least a hundred. I also need to refine the suggestion i am making since it was too vague and I had to converse on more aspects than I could handle at once.

Your argument is weak. As it is completely on the basis that Mangadex does not cater to your specific need when it does somewhat cater to it. Just not as detailed nor specific as you would like it to.

That's not actually what my argument is, honestly and I mentioned this before in my post today. A decent amount of people against it that were contributing to the conversation stated they didn't think it would be easy to do nor was it in the scope of mangadexs ability. Like it may be to hard since figuring out whats male-same sex oriented manga vs just being fetish works for women could be difficult. There are a few BL and Yaoi manga artists who have a decent amount of work that would be bearable for men to read. Also someone brought up that unlike Yaoo which was made for women to fetishize men who like men Yuri had a history of being made for women and by women as well. So honestly my Post is TOO broad I should just be focusing on adding a Gei-komi tag or something to differentiate Yaoi from other male same sex oriented works.

I never said you shouldn't request something. I simply pointed out that when you do request something it is your responsibility to convince people as to why your request matters and is needed.
People can live without everything that they want.

yes its my responsibility to argue my point intelligently I completely agree with that but I cannot do that to people who only want to say things like I dont want it here, or it doesn't belong here or I dont like the idea without them telling me WHY. Conversation is a multi lane/way street and I don't bear the sole responsibility here.

Yes, you did have conversations but you disappeared shortly after and let the thread be carried by others who agree with you instead of continual engagement with everyone.

I do agree I should have stayed.

You can't filter those you engage with based on who you feel is deserving. Outside of actual trolls you should be trying to engage with anyone who takes it seriously.

If someone is unwilling to have a conversation and states they only dont believe it should be there and not why they are just trolling at that point. I am talking to you right now because you are conversing.

@bigtiddyoneesa

MD isn't the place, nor will it (hopefully) ever be the place, for the kind of tag system you're looking for..

this is the reason I asked why you felt that way.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@bigtiddyoneesa

Your argument can basically be chalked up as "yaoi is mainly made for women, so we should add niche tags for yaoi that is made for men"

No Yaoi is made not "mainly". I am not saying we should add tags for yaoi aimed at men since there is none, Yaoi by definition has its demographic being for women.

@pandascepter

With this, it's a proof that, you just killed yourself by something you just post.

Its a fact Yaoi is the fetishization of men with same sex interests by and for women. That doesn't mean those women are evil or anything but thats literally what yaoi is as a genre.

 

[Nutz]

bigtiddyoneesan, I completely agree.

@Clawfire4569 Those super unexpected narrative journeys really hits you in the feels so hard.

@NullError 🤣, that meme and your username make it perfect.

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

@ShadowofOblivion

this is the reason I asked why you felt that way.

I feel "this way" due to the many reasons myself and others have previously stated. You can go back and read them yourself. I don't know how many times I or other people have to spell out to you why this tag is not a good idea, in addition to why it is not necessary to MD. It's almost as if you're just trying to drag this out now.

No Yaoi is made not "mainly". I am not saying we should add tags for yaoi aimed at men since there is none, Yaoi by definition has its demographic being for women.

Alright, you're arguing semantics here, and you even end up getting that wrong. When I said "mainly", I was correct; yaoi is mainly for women, because, as you stated yourself, its target demographic is women. I'm honestly baffled that I even need to restate this to correct you contradicting yourself.

Like jeez, dude.
>No Yaoi is made not "mainly" [for women]
>Yaoi by definition has its demographic being for women

Also, try to make sure that when copy-pasting a user's name, you get it right. You did the same thing twice.

I swear, this entire thread could be a comedy skit at this point.

To any mods that know why this was rejected, could you summarize it to OP if you get the chance?

 

[Nutz]

@ShadowofOblivion I am glad that you and I both seemed to have taken something away from this thread. I understand that some phrasing might have caused misinterpretation and that that's fully my fault.

Your argument is weak. As it is completely on the basis that Mangadex does not cater to your specific need when it does somewhat cater to it. Just not as detailed nor specific as you would like it to.

I did not say that it was entirety of your argument, I only targeted it's foundation. Yes when looking at the finer details of your argument it might seem completely reasonable but the problem is that when you look at it from an overview perspective it causes problems. And that's what you addressed in the response that follows, the difficulty of semantics. So reasonably we both just seemed to have differing perspectives leading to similar conclusions.

From what I've read in your response above you seemed to have narrowed down what you're looking for and that's great. While there is still a bunch we can discuss and converse about. There is a lot I'll take away from this thread.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@Clawfire4569

I don't see how a lbgt/yaoi/yuri tag is gonna help.

I think there is a misunderstanding since thats not my goal.

I wouldn't want someone doing dirty to this manga that I don't even remember the name of by giving it a tag that gives people unfamiliar to the lgbt community an implication that it's about two guys doing the dirty.

First there is nothing "dirty" about guys having sex.

Second I was proposing tags that would be for more accurate lgbt depiction, not ones that are made to cater to heterosexuals. Though it has been brought to my attention that Yuri doesnt have the same history as Yaoi and isnt nearly as bad off.

Third Yaoi is pretty synonymous with men having sex as well but its main definition is that its focusing on a same sex male couple and is written for and by women, this means the depictions of relationships, roles, characteristics, story, sex and dilemmas are generally not accurate nor something most men with same sex interest would read. I know this cause not only do I date other men, I've hosted events at my college club, and participated in events as well. Most men who like men don't like yaoi due to it being target for women. It being target at women is not the literal reason they don't like it but the things that the women like aren't interesting or are turn offs to them.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@Nutz

I agree honestly what I have learned from this is not to try and make one post about multiple tags I shouldn't have focused on LGBT unless I actually wanted an LGBT tag which I somewhat do but thats another rant lol. I've also learned that alot of people tend to conflate Yaoi as Gay(meaning malexmale) Manga instead of the actual genres definition of being made for and by women. Thats going to take some work though cause people don't understand why its a problem in and of itself. I already knew I was gonna have a problem with the term Bara cause its a western concept and Geikomi is what the actual artists in Japan use. Alot of people also assume that Geikomi/Bara is soley about hentai and there is no story when unfortunately thats not true the sole defining characteristic is that its malexmale meant for men and unfortunately people don't understand nor do some want to admit that there is a problem with thinking that yaoi=(all malexmale), nor do they want to admit its important, unfortunately it is a niche though it isnt a niche within a niche. Cause I cannot stress enough that Geikomi/Bara is not a offset of Yaoi or Boys Love.

As for Boys Love its a better over all term to group all of them with though it will always have the problem of being flooded more by Yaoi then any works actually for men with interest in other men.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

My post above this is directed at you @Clawfire4569.

@Nutz how do you properly tag people so they get the bubble...

 

[hazzack]

there is nothing "dirty" about guys having sex.

care to explain? sex is always depicted as dirty, improper, and such since the dawn of civilization. that's why nobody doing it in public

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@hazzack
Not necessarily true
1. it depends on the culture, and in some places sex is legal in public.
2. where cultures do consider sex "dirty" its not usually brought up unless its about men having sex.
3. Most importantly there is nothing dirty/wrong about sex whoever is having it necessarily it is a urge most have and can benefit people as it relieves stress and anxiety, promotes positive feelings and it can be important to people on an emotional level in regards to relationships to make them feel closer and loved.

 

[blackyawgdom]

people don't understand nor do some want to admit that there is a problem with thinking that yaoi=(all malexmale)

If its not Male X Male... then its Male x Female. Then that, you know... BECOMES ROMANCE.

Since its been rejected, OP continues to whine and complain about it and refuses to move on from this endless loop, @BraveDude8 / @Lymus can we get a lock?

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@BraveDude8 / @Lymus

I am not whining nor complaining if you read I already acknowleded that it was rejected but I am still discussing it civilly with others.

Please at least see/acknowledge if you do anything that I am not asking for an overturn on this issue, nor have I been disrespectful to others.

@blackyawgdom

If its not Male X Male... then its Male x Female. Then that, you know... BECOMES ROMANCE.

Both MalexMale and FemalexFemal and MalexFemale are all romance/sex related tags. The issue I have brought up is that Yaoi doesn't equal MalexMale it is specifically targeting women and made by women by definition its not a overarching tag for all MalexMale content.

 

[Nutz]

@ShadowofOblivion 😁. I'm glad to hear your thoughts on this. I'll be honest that before this post I hadn't even heard of Bara nor Geikomi so I've learnt something new. And yeah niches are extremely difficult to cater to, especially when there is categorically speaking already and existing umbrella term that a niche is included in.

To tag someone correctly you just need the @ and their username spelled correctly. It won't show as a bubble in your message but it will show as one for them.

@hazzack porn and The Netherlands would disagree /s

 

[BestBoy]

What Clawfire meant by "done dirty" was that they don't want a manga with a complicated premise to be inaccurately represented by a tag, or have someone's preconceived notions about a subject affect their judgement of a tag. At least that's my understanding of their comment.

@Clawfire4569

@hazzack I think you're discounting how important fertility deities were to some cultures or how open others were with sex, like the Greeks.


Also just because something is rejected doesn't mean it gets locked. We've had suggestions go from rejected to planned over a series of days.

 

[Nutz]

@hazzack This reminds of that Bo Burnham joke. "When two men love each other very much. They get in bed...and then...they shit on the Bible."

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@Nutz I'll be honest I have barely heard of Geikomi before reading up on it. Apparently while we use bara in the west and we dont find it offensive its similar to labeling the artists works as Pansy works and is an insult in Japan. Which is why I am not 100% for using Bara since I dont think thats respectful to the artist or any person interested in men now that I know its origin.

 

[BestBoy]

@ShadowofOblivion I was using it because it's easier to type. I might go back and edit them just because I can. Or if anyone asks me to.

 

[Nutz]

@ShadowofOblivion Terminology does get a bit iffy. But I don't fault you in using a term you're familiar with even if it's not necessarily correct, it's not like you knew the negative connotation it had.
While they do say ignorance is not an excuse, I don't believe in persecution because of it. It's better to have not known and learned then to refuse to learn at all.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@BestBoy
I don't necessarily believe that was @Clawfire4569 intent but I did want to bring what they said into perspective especially since bara/geikomi or an lgbt specific tag isn't only about sex, sex isn't dirty and Yaoi itself is tag that wouldn't necessarily be sweet romance either most also include sex and focus on it.

 

[ShadowofOblivion]

@Nutz

While they do say ignorance is not an excuse, I don't believe in persecution because of it. It's better to have not known and learned then to refuse to learn at all.

Definitely agree with one addendum being willfully ignorant isn't acceptable like purposely ignoring or rejecting facts for your own benefit alot of people do that to abuse others. Though I don't think thats what you were supporting lol.