Shingeki no Kyojin - Vol. 34 Ch. 137 - Titans

[grecolespaul]

@Naian

<freedom : "the power or right to act, speak, or think as one wants.">

... which is literally the absence of a necessity that constrains you. Eren is propelled by a certain vision of the future. His actions are constrained by a certainty, a necessity. He is a slave to the Attack Titan's vision of the future. The fact that Hanji couldn't give him a satisfactory alternative is irrelevant. The fact that he pleaded with the kids he was going to kill tells you that his "want" for something has also become irrelevant. What happens next, MUST happen because its what the Attack Titan has showed him. The absence of alternatives is literally the definition of unfreedom.

<Are you saying Eren is being hypocrite for forcing his friends to launch an attack?>
yes. Eren is exploiting power relations (ie his having the Attack and Founding Titan through no choice of his own) necessitated the Scouts cooperation. Hanji elucidated on that quite well.

<he says "if others are going to steal my freedom, I would rather steal theirs">
again, an exemplification of power relations. Eren has the power coerce, something most people don't have. While it is arguable that this has given him the freedom he desires, the point is prior to the episode where he gets a broad glimpse of the future by kissing Historia's hand, he has always chosen to use power to defy power. This is critical because it has been made pretty clear that the stoic Eren you see now only came after that massive gaze into a certain future. From that point on, Eren never made another conscious choice. He just followed the Attack Titan's lead.

<As long as Eren was free to choose to follow the future Attack Titan has shown him, it is still freedom of choice.>
The Attack Titan's visions are NOT options for which one can "choose" from. It is apparently, a CERTAINTY. There is no choice to be made. Eren already made this clear with his talk with Reiner... "I am just like you", "If its about saving the world, then you didn't have a choice", "i'm here because I have no choice". Rationalizing on the lines that Eren actually PREFERS genocide is a non-sequitur. As far as he is concerned, THAT is the only action open to him, preferred or otherwise.

 

[Goldenweek]

I think people saying this is power of friendship have a small point, but The Path itself has always kind of been this almost spiritual genetic lineage so it's not outlandish to think that along with memories (and even farsight for the attack titan) consciousness is also mildly preserved, and the Beast Titan being the titan which commands others thanks to "royal" blood, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to call them

The conversation is a lil rushed though, Zeke was always kind of a colder more blunt character and it's gone in a few pages (albeit it isn't a switch as much as a return to childhood, i can see people saying it seems forced).

 

[aloysiusks]

eren is not dead i believe

 

[Lithe]

@grecolespaul As someone who enjoys the concept of fate, the way you frame some of your points seems off kilter.

I agree that Eren does not have the freedom he talks about, but I'm almost certain that because he knows the future, he is already self-aware of that fact, he just talks about it to propel the narrative (both for the readers and the characters in universe). The only difference between him and the rest of the "good guys" on this front of "freedom" is the ignorance that shields them. The fact that they appear in his visions to me implies that they are not free either, but there is something to be gleaned in not knowing the future like Eren does - it's still not freedom though. If anything, you are merely constrained by ignorance but it is preferable to some extent.

You've also acknowledged that the visions 'appear to be a certainty', something I also agree with. But to conclude what you have regarding Eren's motivation also requires a lot of assumptions of what Eren has actually seen, something that the author (probably intentionally) left ambiguous. The fact that he even tried to defy anything (assuming we are interpreting those scenes correctly) to me indicates that he didn't get a thorough glimpse of the future, and what is even more suspect is just how far into the future he got to see in the first place. For all we know, we have passed the point where Eren knows what will happen and is therefore no longer constrained to the visions, though I don't believe that myself. If anything, I believe the opposite - that Eren already knows the result of this whole battle and was basically forced to accept it. Framed my way, Eren is merely saying these things about freedom, but he does not believe them. He is not so much 'driven' by a vision as he is resigned to what he knows will happen. He seems pretty comfortable about it, to be honest, but again, I still have no idea how much Eren knows.
And as a quick note, his choices are still 'conscious' due to the idea that Eren has not gotten THE comprehensive view of the future, but there is probably some kind of reconciliation going on with his beliefs now that his idea of free will has probably been destroyed.

 

[Scrabbleman]

Finally, it ends. I like Eren and his philosophy is neat but let's be honest; he turned into an extremist in the end. And from what we've seen, any form of extremism is always a bad thing. Eren wants to rid the world of all of the Eldians' enemies in order to get the freedom he so desperately desired, but Armin speaks the truth and flaw of Eren's ideals.

The world will end and people will die but so what? What does that matter? What you make of it today will still be something you enjoy, even when you die in the future. There will be hate and anger and fighting all around but killing everyone doesn't fix it. You're not solving the problem; you're just removing it from the equation. It's like having a disease that paralyzes your arm and instead of taking time to heal it, you decided to just cut off the arm and be done with it.

Eren wants freedom, he wants to give his friends freedom. And yet, he's willing to take away other people's freedom to do it. Their freedom to live. He became the monster he hates so much.

 

[twinklecake]

Levi is still pretty gangster, huh.

 

[WaterRocket]

If that's the end it was anticlimactic. I hope Eren escapes to Argentina.

 

[grecolespaul]

@Lithe

I agree that Eren does not have the freedom he talks about, but I'm almost certain that because he knows the future, he is already self-aware of that fact, he just talks about it to propel the narrative (both for the readers and the characters in universe).[/quote ]
Him being self-aware is irrelevant. Either he has an actual choice or he doesn't. The presence of a future-seeing Attack Titan is actually what makes this story so interesting, because without it, everything can be attributed to Eren's freedom of agency.

The only difference between him and the rest of the "good guys" on this front of "freedom" is the ignorance that shields them. The fact that they appear in his visions to me implies that they are not free either

I disagree. The agency of the "good guys" is exercised for what it is: the ability to choose with an outcome uncertain. That is the essence of agency: that something could have been otherwise. Eren's certainty does not relegate their freedom to mere ignorance. I would reckon that even if the "good guys" knew it was hopeless with certainty, they would still fight the same way Erwin did in his final charge. Consistent with Armin's take on nihilism, they make their meaning as they go along. Eren can't seem to do that any more.

You've also acknowledged that the visions 'appear to be a certainty', something I also agree with. But to conclude what you have regarding Eren's motivation also requires a lot of assumptions of what Eren has actually seen, something that the author (probably intentionally) left ambiguous.

Either its a certainty or it isn't. It can't be both. IF indeed it is a certainty, then Eren's agency is compromised. If it isn't (ie, its like a suggestion or something) then Eren's choice matters. But it can't be both.

For all we know, we have passed the point where Eren knows what will happen and is therefore no longer constrained to the visions, though I don't believe that myself.

I don't either. I'm just working on the assumption that these visions exist and that they influence if not constrain potential action. Maybe Isayama has something else in mind, but personally, I have a feeling that the problematic nature of "freedom" in the face of what is predetermination will be critical in taking the story full circle given that since Chapter 1, freedom through Eren's eyes is the most important thing.

If anything, I believe the opposite - that Eren already knows the result of this whole battle and was basically forced to accept it. Framed my way, Eren is merely saying these things about freedom, but he does not believe them. He is not so much 'driven' by a vision as he is resigned to what he knows will happen. He seems pretty comfortable about it, to be honest, but again, I still have no idea how much Eren knows.

And this would be a tragedy. If Eren really was just "forced to accept" the circumstances, that would mean that for all his development, all his power, he didn't progress at all from that helpless little kid forced to accept seeing his mum get eaten by a titan. Him being "comfortable" about it becomes irrelevant. In the end he had no say in how things panned out. He is still just as constrained as he was in Chapter 1 and his quest for freedom is all for naught.

And as a quick note, his choices are still 'conscious', but there is probably some kind of reconciliation going on with his beliefs now that his idea of free will has probably been destroyed.

While I question any agency he still has after that big future reveal with Historia, I agree that this particular point will probably be critical in how the plot resolves. It's what makes this story interesting for me. Isayama has yanked away any framework for absolute justice (something that I think is what already distinguishes this work from any other shonen story), and now he forces the audience to ponder on the value of freedom and what it can mean in the face of near insurmountable power. Really good stuff IMO.

 

[Wakahisa]

There are still 90 pages to go guys


[cope] there is still a chance for eren being in paradise via Warhammers ability [cope end]

Either way there are still 2 chapters to go

 

[shoker]

Eren isn't against the Alliance. They were both fighting the same enemy the entire time, but Eren needed certain requirements to win.
Lets start from the beginning. Narrative writing 101. The more that you know about the plan the more likely it is that the plan will FAIL. We see this throughout this 'season'. Reiner and co knew nothing about the attack on Libero. Zeke knew nothing about Eren's plan with Ymir. Armin knows nothing about Ymir or Eren's hidden motive for the rumbling. It's OBVIOUS they will FAIL whereas Eren succeeds.

We can also look back to Historia's convo with Eren, where she states that she would never be able to live with herself if she didn't do everything to stop Eren (like the Alliance is doing right now)

I'd also like to point out the twist that occurred in Chapters 120-123. In them, Eren tells his Father that he (Grisha) will continue to advance to avenge their fallen comrades, to make everyones' death WORTH MEANING. He says that Grisha will do this in his lifetime and EVEN AFTER his lifetime. There's also the whole comment of 'Slaves don't need both eyes' from the former-Eldian King told in Ymir's PoV. We are also told that Ymir is WITH Eren, and Eren understands Ymir. So why then, would Grisha and Kruger choose to HELP Armin? (Especially Grisha, helping save Reiner who helped kill Carla.) The answer is, they weren't. They were helping Eren the entire time. Eren needed Ymir to guide Armin to the Paths to kill Zeke. Eren needed Armin to destroy the Founder/Attack Titan with his explosion (or alternatively to use his Titan abilities there so he can't use them later).
The point to me with this is that THIS all makes sense if you think about how Eren was acting. He needed Armin to do this and to not wuss out. So Eren did everything he could. He beat Armin up, he threatened Mikasa. He tried his absolute BEST to try and push everyone away so they could see him as a legitimate threat to seriously come to kill him. He NEEDED them to.

Then let's look at the entire "I just keep moving forwards" and "Because I was born into this world" and "Beyond that hell may just be another hell, but only those who keep moving forward will know". I think because of aaaaaaaaaaaall this, the entire theme is moving forward, Eren is 'missing' because he's doing something that will change the world. Whether that change is for better or worse, Eren is determined to see it through to the end. It's painfully obvious that it's not over quite yet without the final twist.

Obvious shout out to STILL not knowing why Mikasa has her headaches. I'm going with the GoT Hodor theory. Something happens in the Paths that causes it.

 

[Bootybug]

Annie titan farted so hard it blew away her opponents...

 

[General_Irons]

The Armored Titan and the Colossal Titan, the two that started it all, will end it all.

GOOD ENDING

 

[A31D31N]

So basically, the specific concept of entertainment and emotional attachment towards an action is what seperates humans from most other living things.

 

[A-tan]

@fizhsmile Yeah that would be the case If they kill the... whatever the fuck that thing is, before Historia's baby is born, which seems to be the direction this is going. However from my understanding the moment Zeke bit the dust that power should have been transfered. Then again, with all the shit going down right now who tf knows.

 

[blueseightyone]

Rest in Peace. Eren. Your plan worked well.

I'm actually thinking that Eren will survive, but not sure

 

[blueseightyone]

@Waterocket agreed lol

 

[Thorss]

Why jean still alive ?



Joke peace

 

[RaijinWolf]

TL;DR: The cycle of violence must continue, as it's the only logical and emotional continuation of events in the context of this story.

So, I've just gone through and read every single comment on this chapter so far, and there's a lot of philosophy talk.

Allow me to make this incredibly simple by laying out facts.

As much as we all want to talk about how violence only begets violence, let's remember that there's a reason why violence is prevalent throughout history: Diplomacy only works when everyone wants to talk. Talking out your problems and compromising is a privilege of the fortunate. Why would the powerful listen if what they're doing works?

Anyone who has grown up in a rough neighbourhood will tell you; a life where "violence is never the answer" is a privilege that not everyone gets to enjoy. The reality is that when that's your only option, that's your only option.

The "cycle of violence" isn't something that exists because nobody wants to talk, it's because each time power shifts, there's always a new side that needs to because they've lost power, and a new side that doesn't need to because they've gained it.

In the case of Isayama's world, this all started when the titans of the past conquered the world, because those in power made their lives hell, they returned the favour. Not everyone deserves to be forgiven.

Marley's treatment of Eldia and Ymir's descendants was revenge for that. Not everyone deserves to be forgiven.

Eren gets power, and now we're seeing his revenge; what goes around comes around. Not everyone deserves to be forgiven.

What I'm trying to illustrate here is that each time one side takes revenge, they always extend the violence to innocents, because that's what happened to them. This escalation is what led us here.

If the rumbling is stopped, the world won't suddenly be at peace; Eldia is finished. That's the only logical and emotional way forward from here that remains consistent with the world Isayama has constructed. If that doesn't happen, he's fucked it.

None of the sides have put the work in to forgive their enemies, so a sudden "and then there was peace" will be the largest contrivance in the entire manga.

I understand that ending a story with "and so the cycle of violence continued" isn't the kind of message people want to see, but that's what should happen. It's the only ending that would make sense.

The cycle of violence exists because some issues are beyond diplomacy, centuries of blood and pain and suffering can never be resolved with words. Because individual thought exists, conflict will exist. Because memories exist, conflict will be extended and reignited. A world with individual thought will never be without conflict, and because conflict will be extended and reignited, escalation is inevitable.

It's not the most positive thing to accept, but that's how the world works: it doesn't.

 

[blueseightyone]

To the people complaining about this chapter-
Isayama still did a great job. He may have written himself into a corner, but we still have a lot left in the last 2 chapters that might change your mindset. The manga isin't done yet.

 

[chocodette]

my gosh, if Eren dies.. I will stop myself from watching the latest AoT season because I'm suffering from a heartbreak :"