Sono Bisque Doll wa Koi o Suru - Vol. 12 Ch. 93

[comeonnow0]

While it may feel cheap now, the payoff we will get from the final of this arc will definitively be great, especially when it comes to Gojou's growth

Your statement falls flat when I literally gave the alternative. Have Gojou make a good costume. Doesn't have to be perfect. Have Gojou come to terms with the fact that he isn't perfect.

In my opinion, that's infinitely better character growth than what we see here. It could even work its way into the story. Gojou accepts that he's not perfect, that he is human, unlike the character he is trying to create (make the costume of). Gojou is not an angel, and yet he can continue to work, as he literally says himself. He can come to terms with never being perfect, but he'll keep trying because that's who he is, blah, blah, etc.

But he just stumbles into it here.

 

[Cecmomega]

Your statement falls flat when I literally gave the alternative. Have Gojou make a good costume. Doesn't have to be perfect. Have Gojou come to terms with the fact that he isn't perfect.

In my opinion, that's infinitely better character growth than what we see here. It could even work its way into the story. Gojou accepts that he's not perfect, that he is human, unlike the character he is trying to create (make the costume of). Gojou is not an angel, and yet he can continue to work, as he literally says himself. He can come to terms with never being perfect, but he'll keep trying because that's who he is, blah, blah, etc.

But he just stumbles into it here.

The problem with your alternative is that Gojou's growth the author is currently working us through already has Gojou's come to terms that he isn't perfect, hell, his entire spiralling is pretty much due to his own fault and he admits to it

Just because he happens to stumble upon what was already a decided outcome narratively and what was always there from the beginning in the corner of his mind doesn't take away from that growth, and the same can be said if he ends up making his greatest costume yet, it doesn't take away from his growth at all

I will give you the fact that it can be seen as cheap but what you are arguing about isn't much about Gojou's growth, since he grows in the same way in both scenarios, but much more the narrative method in which he is made to grow

Which method is the best while including the various points I talked about earlier is up in the air but what you are arguing about still isn't Gojou's growth but the way he achieved it

The fact that he "forgot" about Hina Dolls due to his focus on cosplay, that he forgot where that fabric he thinks of came from and even just his self loathing about this entire work, all those traits are inherently humans, be it forgetting things, the self loathing and so on

He himself admits to having those faults, he even knows of them from the very start of the manga (at least some of them) so you assuming that the author making him remember his hina doll knowledge somehow makes Gojou perfect just makes your entire argument falls flat, as he himself knows that he isn't, and that more than anyone else

Your method itself could work if we were to forget about the fabric entirely and rewrite the last 5 chapters at least but the entire reasoning that got you to it is flawed just as much as this method if used as is on this very chapter, as that fabric has way too much of an impact on the narrative to be sent to the forever box

 

[waldo220]

The shounen battle manga energy that went into that 1 google search lol

 

[comeonnow0]

The problem with your alternative is that Gojou's growth the author is currently working us through already has Gojou's come to terms that he isn't perfect, hell, his entire spiralling is pretty much due to his own fault and he admits to it

Just because he happens to stumble upon what was already a decided outcome narratively and what was always there from the beginning in the corner of his mind doesn't take away from that growth, and the same can be said if he ends up making his greatest costume yet, it doesn't take away from his growth at all

It does. It massively takes away from it. I gave my counterexample in my first post. Imagine if a careless person goes through life being careless, and then they finally have an epiphany about how being careless is bad because they are now facing the consequences of it. Then they get rewarded for being careless. It majorly detracts from it. There's a whole page on TV Tropes about Broken Aesop. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenAesop

He himself admits to having those faults, he even knows of them from the very start of the manga (at least some of them) so you assuming that the author making him remember his hina doll knowledge somehow makes Gojou perfect just makes your entire argument falls flat, as he himself knows that he isn't, and that more than anyone else

You're missing what I'm saying.

The author has control over how the story goes. We all agree on that. Regardless of things like advertising and government censorship (which does exist in Japan, but is a completely separate issue), the author basically has control over the story.

The author, therefore, can try to say to us, as readers, that Gojou has, in fact, learned his lesson and accepted his shortcomings even if all the actions and events leading up to that would make a real-life person not, in fact, learn the lesson. The author has the ability to make Gojou learn the aesop even though the events make it a broken aesop.

And that's what I'm saying is happening here. In a real-life scenario, maybe a real human could learn the lesson that they can't be perfect. Maybe. In my opinion, what is more likely is that they'll have "aesop amnesia", that they'll just forget the lesson that was supposed to be learned because the events worked out in their favor.

That is what makes it bad writing. When you say that you understand that it looks cheap, that is an implicit understanding of these reasons. You disagree with me. I understand. You say it's not overtly cheap and give your reasons.

But if you understand and think it is reasonable to call this cheap, then you can understand the rest of what I wrote and find it reasonable to call this bad writing, even if you just disagree. You can consider my position reasonable even if you disagree.

 

[Cecmomega]

I think that's the problem with it. The execution isn't particularly good. The overall message isn't bad, but the pacing is bad, and the individual pages feel off in a way that makes him look dumb rather than insecure about his own abilities.

The execution of this specific chapter is the problem as it's lacking a few more pages to deliver the message it was set to achieve, the pacing of the arc itself was fine

As for it making him look dumb, in a way he is dumb, because he is pretty much a trainee craftsman that has yet to see the big picture and only focus, if not obsess with his definition of knowledge he can use for cosplay when in truth, his pool of knowledge is much bigger than what he thinks, it's pretty much why Gramps sent him out to see the world so to speak

The fact that he forgot about that fabric is pretty much directly linked to him unconsciously reducing his knowledge pool he can draw from because he doesn't see it as adequate for cosplay craftsmanship when in truth it is

The journey vs the goal. A story needs to have both down pat, not just one of them.

Tbf, tropes such as this one sometimes can be hard to handle, especially due to how on the nose they are and how much the narrative pretty much forces the conclusion to be one way and not the other so I can accept them failing to pull through, at least not in a grandiose form and fashion

Fair enough if it was a mistake. But don't insult people because you disagree with their enjoyment of a story.

It's not so much disagreeing on their enjoyement, after all I appreciate the romance too, and much more about them seeing the romance as the very core component of the story when it isn't

Cosplay has always been the very core component, be it why they even talk to each other to why Marin is even so into him

I may have been harsh in the way I put it but they deserved the wake up call

could agree to disagree on that. I separated them because it's a bit too far from actually accomplishing anything, and too close to navel gazing. It was also about someone who said it was about cosplay, not romance, and I responded that even the cosplay was missing.

Most of it is about his character, not cosplay. By this I mean you could have the exact same arc with something other than cosplay. I don't think it's bad to focus on his mental development, but as I mentioned, it does take away from the other aspects of the manga, especially when it drags on like this for very little reason.

The cosplay isn't missing since it's still the core reason Gojou is in such state, it may be on the back burner instead of being front and center but it is still the core reason Gojou puts himself though all this anguish, self-loathing and so on

And while this arc is much more about his character than cosplay, cosplay is still the main motivation that drives it all, it's just that we get the lense on his entire process and especially how painful that process is this time around

As for it taking long and taking over the other aspects of the manga, that's only because the spotlight only focus on Gojou's quest as a craftsman this time around, and that without Marin as his sidekick to bring back the balance, and that's made on purpose for us to feel that slow burn the same way creators, and in this case Gojou, do, you may dislike it but that's the very reason for it

I'll stop speaking about it when you stop doing it.

I often cut down quotes so they're not huge blocks of text, but I don't respond only to the part I left in out of context. I don't dismiss things by misquoting; I do it by arguing.

Well, I'm not used to the forum yet so might just be me being misguided by your method but it does throw me off

Doesn't make that specific argument you had go beyond what was quoted though on that one

 

[Cecmomega]

It does. It massively takes away from it. I gave my counterexample in my first post. Imagine if a careless person goes through life being careless, and then they finally have an epiphany about how being careless is bad because they are now facing the consequences of it. Then they get rewarded for being careless. It majorly detracts from it. There's a whole page on TV Tropes about Broken Aesop. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BrokenAesop



You're missing what I'm saying.

The author has control over how the story goes. We all agree on that. Regardless of things like advertising and government censorship (which does exist in Japan, but is a completely separate issue), the author basically has control over the story.

The author, therefore, can try to say to us, as readers, that Gojou has, in fact, learned his lesson and accepted his shortcomings even if all the actions and events leading up to that would make a real-life person not, in fact, learn the lesson. The author has the ability to make Gojou learn the aesop even though the events make it a broken aesop.

And that's what I'm saying is happening here. In a real-life scenario, maybe a real human could learn the lesson that they can't be perfect. Maybe. In my opinion, what is more likely is that they'll have "aesop amnesia", that they'll just forget the lesson that was supposed to be learned because the events worked out in their favor.

That is what makes it bad writing. When you say that you understand that it looks cheap, that is an implicit understanding of these reasons. You disagree with me. I understand. You say it's not overtly cheap and give your reasons.

But if you understand and think it is reasonable to call this cheap, then you can understand the rest of what I wrote and find it reasonable to call this bad writing, even if you just disagree. You can consider my position reasonable even if you disagree.

(Reply bugged out so double quote it is)

He didn't get rewarded though, what he did was take his brain away from cosplay on a whim since he just had an artistic block and, after passing what I assume to be the second storage room, by seeing the hina dolls, he finally sees what he was missing

Sure, he only got a partial answer so far as the answer is only about the fabric itself (which is why this feel cheap/like a reward so far) since he has yet to realise that his knowledge of hina dolls craftsmanship can be used on things other than hina dolls but the moment he does will be when he would truly have achieved growth and will stop making this feel "wrong" so to speak

Whether or not he will realize himself or if someone else will make him is up in the air but that will still be the decisive moment of his growth

 

[AnotherDuck]

The execution of this specific chapter is the problem as it's lacking a few more pages to deliver the message it was set to achieve, the pacing of the arc itself was fine

It's not just the chapter, and the problem is the opposite of lacking a few pages. The pacing of the arc is not fine.

As for it making him look dumb, in a way he is dumb

He's naïve and inexperienced, not dumb. That's why he's missing the big picture, has trouble thinking outside the box, or even utilise the box he has built up.

Missing that difference is one of the reasons the writing feels off.

The cosplay isn't missing since it's still the core reason Gojou is in such state, it may be on the back burner instead of being front and center but it is still the core reason Gojou puts himself though all this anguish, self-loathing and so on

With that way of arguing you can make a case for just about anything being "about cosplay", since that's what the manga is about. If it's on the back burner then it's not the current topic. It's not about cosplay; it's about his mental development. It's only tangentially related to cosplay, and it's been like that for too long with too little payoff.

It's like a chocolate chip cookie with a single chip of chocolate. It's technically still a chocolate chip cookie, but it's more accurate to call it a plain ass cookie.

Doesn't make that specific argument you had go beyond what was quoted though on that one

Honestly, I have no idea what you're referring to here.

 

[TrueGoddessReincarnation]

Ehhh just say it has gotten extremely stale lately. Why can't some of you just say that?

 

[Vergift]

Wait...you got Himeko in HSR gacha?? I never get one!!! 😭

Ok, game jokes aside, I thought he ended up in depressive state and just say, "Screw it, I'm done!!". But he actually didn't give up. For him to admit that he lacks experience and just being an idiot is good. Not many people could do that.

 

[sotokouya]

i wish the resolution was that someone (like his grandpa) pointed out the fabric instead of being so indirect because picking what would be the best and knowing its name is different matter, like what's with "my own experience" you're like what, 15-16y/o?? i get that there's this pride thing and Gojo want to "zama miro" Haniel's author but like what others said he's still in tunnel vision, i'd actually ask everyone i know about than being unsatisfied till the end but that's just me.

anyway the first time he forced himself to finish before the event for marin's nurujyo cosplay goes really hard but this is kinda uhh uhhh

 

[TwisterJR]

I just noticed he has his pc, keyboard and screen on the fucking floor, his back must hurt.

 

[Ugh_foine]

My guy drank enough Monster to substitute the blood in his veins and proceeded to have an existential crisis

 

[Lustrist]

my tanuki has gone feral

 

[amaniza2010]

Boi that Is Really Cash money man. are you Sure

 

[Amariithynar]

What was the whole point of the chapter about how he lacks experience if "the answer was within him" and he gets through on his own experience anyways?

To do a direct comparison against himself previously and how he's now actually becoming a better person and overcoming himself and his defeatist attitude.

 

[ddd0329]

Congratulations,Gojo finally find his perfect fabric.

 

[Plain3r]

I just noticed he has his pc, keyboard and screen on the fucking floor, his back must hurt.

He always had it set up like that ever since then from the beginning when he played the eroge Marin let him borrow from her for the Kuroe Shizuku cosplay

 

[BSPancake]

Dawg, where the FUCK is the romance? I used to be excited when new chapters came out. Author needs to remember why the series gained popularity in the first place.

 

[D00T]

I feel like the release schedule really hurts this manga sometimes. I feel kind of lost now because the last chapter was so long ago like 2 months. I do follow other manga that come out with around that same timescale but that manga has longer chapters and the story is keeping me hooked. I don't know why but I've kind of lost that here

 

[ShaiKhulud]

This manga was always about cosplay with some fluff sprinkled here and there.

And I love that the cosplay woes in this manga are actually telling you a lot why Gojo is so insecure around Marin, why he is so afraid to even thought about confessing to her. This chapter is about Gojo finally overcoming his tunnel vision. He is a craftsman forst and foremost and his craft is the drive behind his love for Marin.

It is also a monthly/bimonthly release so I don't get the whining. So far, I really love that Fukuda is actually pacing everything right without silly speedy confessions.