Tensei Oujo to Tensai Reijou no Mahou Kakumei - Ch. 47

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"Saying people should come together hand-in-hand has a lovely ring to it, but to do thay accomplishes nothing but to throw away something in order to make that hand empty."

What nonsense. Trying to camouflage sloppy storytelling by disregarding the entire concept of people reaching mutual compromise is a bold freaking move, but it's still ridiculous. They can never avoid the fact that this isn't the logical, coherent endpoint of these characters and this setting.

Also:

"If those are lost for you to become king, then I have no need for that king."

None of these characters have any need for a king, including the current king! Their entire society freaking sucks, and the idea that these characters are warping their whole lives around the idea of "serving" such a thoroghly toxic institution is just profoundly depressing.
 
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Everyone talking like a civil war isn't the best option but instead carrying on this quasi bullshit nation's principles.
Euphie went about this stupid she still trying to decide what Anis can and should do..

Loser dad over hear talking about having a heart to heart.. bro your kids needed you a long as fuck time ago you honestly probably would act as better character development for them if you suddenly dropped dead.
Civil War gets Anis and Euphie what they want, maybe, ostensibly anyway.

But it comes at the cost of countless dead and the aftermath of a kingdom in ruins, and it doesn't guarantee that feelings of resentment or newfound grudges & bitterness don't persist and grow in the aftermath.

Anis still loves her country, at least in the abstract. S'why she doesn't just peace out before now and go somewhere else - she both carries the burden of being the next-in-line for the throne, but also genuinely cares about the people of she might one day rule over.
Them all suffering because of some lofty ideal she may wish to force upon all of these people wouldn't sit right with her.
 
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"Saying people should come together hand-in-hand has a lovely ring to it, but to do thay accomplishes nothing but to throw away something in order to make that hand empty."

What nonsense. Trying to camouflage sloppy storytelling by disregarding the entire concept of people reaching mutual compromise is a bold freaking move, but it's still ridiculous. They can never avoid the fact that this isn't the logical, coherent endpoint of these characters and this setting.

Also:

"If those are lost for you to become king, then I have no need for that king."

None of these characters have any need for a king, including the current king! Their entire society freaking sucks, and the idea that these characters are warping their whole lives around the idea of "serving" such a thoroghly toxic institution is just profoundly depressing.
I now suspect that the author just wants Anis to suffer for some reason.

I'm only now seeing it, but there's a bit of a through-line of Anis just having....really shitty choices or circumstances thrust upon her from day one of showing up in this world.

Even Euphie, who supposedly loves her so much she'd risk killing Anis just to "save her" in this duel, is trying to take away her agency to even make a choice for herself--however shitty that choice may be--and trying to paint it as some righteous act. But her parents failed her, the institutions of the kingdom obviously revile her just for what she is, and at every turn, everything she tries in order to better her situation or maybe gain some autonomy or control over her own life is thwarted or shut down because of "obligations" or "tradition" or "I know better than you".

To the point it's almost suspicious.
 
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Civil War gets Anis and Euphie what they want, maybe, ostensibly anyway.

But it comes at the cost of countless dead and the aftermath of a kingdom in ruins, and it doesn't guarantee that feelings of resentment or newfound grudges & bitterness don't persist and grow in the aftermath.

Anis still loves her country, at least in the abstract. S'why she doesn't just peace out before now and go somewhere else - she both carries the burden of being the next-in-line for the throne, but also genuinely cares about the people of she might one day rule over.
Them all suffering because of some lofty ideal she may wish to force upon all of these people wouldn't sit right with her.
Respectfully, self-determination is not really some lofty ideal. It's also not really something you can force on anyone. If the people don't want a say in who governs them, so be it, but that doesn't leave anyone obliged to continue governing them if that person doesn't want to do so. Everyone must have the right to decide for themselves what kind of lives they want to live. Any system preventing that, either in fiction or reality, needs to be demolished.
 
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Respectfully, self-determination is not really some lofty ideal. It's also not really something you can force on anyone. If the people don't want a say in who governs them, so be it, but that doesn't leave anyone obliged to continue governing them if that person doesn't want to do so. Everyone must have the right to decide for themselves what kind of lives they want to live. Any system preventing that, either in fiction or reality, needs to be demolished.
Sorry, I had to read what you wrote twice because at first I thought you contradicted yourself, and then my reading comprehension finally kicked in and I have to re-think my comment.

You're right, of course, on both axes of the self-determination thing - but I'd also have to go back and check if Anis is even thinking of "tearing down the government", because if she hasn't, then it's a nonstarter.

It's something we as readers can posit, and she's the prime candidate to even broach the idea, being the sole being from outside the current system of government with some power to potentially do something about changing it. But unless she comes up with it within the context of the narrative as a character decision, it does little more than serve as a "wow either the character is dumb or the writers made bad decisions for her" gripe from the sidelines.

I honestly think she's best just peacing out entirely. She won't, and I get why, and I approve of her decision to not do that, but.

It's just kinda heartbreaking watching her get effectively controlled like this, even by Euphie.
 
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Just to note, the author actually has discussed the "Anise peaces out of Palettia" scenario in, IIRC, one of the Q&A chapters of the web novel. What happens is either Anise gets assassinated by agents from Palettia's noble factions or Palettia gets run over by its neighbors a few years later.

Also, Anise doesn't just love Palettia in the abstract, Anise loves its people, probably more than most nobility. Remember that she spends a lot of time with commoners, from adventuring to forging her her magical tools. She knows her people and has lived among them while her people have helped her achieve what she's achieved. Her self sacrifice isn't just for some abstract concept of noblesse oblige or (just) her pride, it's also on the back of a concrete affection for her people and her family.

As for all the "switch to democracy" sentiments, a succession crisis is like the worst time to implement that. A succession crisis means the ruling authority doesn't have control of the various factions in the country. Any reform you try to push during that time will be opposed by someone trying take advantage of the upcoming power vacuum. You need to be in a position of strength to push them through. That's what Al was trying to achieve with his vampire gambit and to an extent what Euphie will have once she becomes a full spirit contractor.
 
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Doing so unilaterally would upend the entire nation.

The nobility can also use magic, whereas the commoner people cannot. It could lead to open civil war, seeing mass death and destruction.

I also think this fight is stupid, becuse there's almost always a viable third way, but it's the both of them standing up for their ideals and staying true to their character designs, which is why it's happening.

I do think Euphie is fucked in the head for going the "I'm okay with you hating me forever if it means I'm the only wound in your heart" route, because it's such a selfish motive that completely denies Anis her feelings on the matter out of some perverse, sanctimonious need to "save the poor girl from herself" - effectively admitting that Anis is incapable of doing anything about her situation and coddling her in a super emotionally abusive way.

Really, Anis got fucked super hard by reincarnating here. Loves magic, but can't use it. Makes her ineligible to succeed the throne, but is the only royal who can. Is told her whole life she's worthless, until suddenly she's needed. The one person who was supposed to absolutely have her back, now tells her she needs saving, and will become an inhuman immortal just to keep Anis from misery that's not even guaranteed to happen, if they played their cards together in the right way.

Everyone just kinda shits on her or patronizes her and she just....has to let it happen because in the eyes of this world she's an abomination. And even her workaround is seen as heretical, and the woman she loves is throwing her own humanity away on some pretense that it's going to make Anis happy watching her become someone incapable of love.

Just sucks to be the protagonist here, in my mind.
Damn you summed up my feelings on this dumb fight really well.

They are 2 insanely powerful kids standing up for their vision of the world that at the same time don't get the ways of the world themselves.

You will be the Queen and the heir of the strongest and most important family in the kingdom at least reapectively. This is politics, bitch. You will have to play this game, like it or not. Start learning the rules, and start playing. You can steer your society the way you want, there's no need to become an immortal being.

Don't get me wrong though, this conflict really makes a lot of sense for them as characters, which is why I really like the story anyway. They're still kids and Anis was sure she'd never have political power.

If I were the king I'd be tearing them a new one. But then again, this king is specially dumb and inept at his job.
 
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Ugh, it's not quite as bad as the LN, but it's still far too verbose and repetitive in its explanations. You don't need to spell out the same point multiple times
 
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Just to note, the author actually has discussed the "Anise peaces out of Palettia" scenario in, IIRC, one of the Q&A chapters of the web novel. What happens is either Anise gets assassinated by agents from Palettia's noble factions or Palettia gets run over by its neighbors a few years later.

Also, Anise doesn't just love Palettia in the abstract, Anise loves its people, probably more than most nobility. Remember that she spends a lot of time with commoners, from adventuring to forging her her magical tools. She knows her people and has lived among them while her people have helped her achieve what she's achieved. Her self sacrifice isn't just for some abstract concept of noblesse oblige or (just) her pride, it's also on the back of a concrete affection for her people and her family.

As for all the "switch to democracy" sentiments, a succession crisis is like the worst time to implement that. A succession crisis means the ruling authority doesn't have control of the various factions in the country. Any reform you try to push during that time will be opposed by someone trying take advantage of the upcoming power vacuum. You need to be in a position of strength to push them through. That's what Al was trying to achieve with his vampire gambit and to an extent what Euphie will have once she becomes a full spirit contractor.
The author chiming in on the reality of what would happen if Anise decided to bail makes sense in-context for the world, and is good "insider knowledge" to have insofar as the creator themself has given thought to that "what-if".

Anise fighting essentially for the livelihood of the commonfolk she's grown so close to is really why she'd make such a good queen. Sadly, she'd be a very ineffective one, because she'd simply become a pawn for the nobility that view her with such baldfaced contempt that they'd immediately reduce her to a figurehead and babymaker using whatever handpicked noble they prop up to uphold their own aims for the country. Sadly, pushing back on that now would be a terrible idea as you've stated due to the power vacuum and the volatile ideologies that would clash and cause immediate bloodshed, socioeconomic destruction and simply open the door for rival nations to sweep in and tear apart the bleeding remains.

I very much appreciate that each character is acting toward their self-interests, and it makes this a compelling title with a gripping narrative in that sense. I think it's precisely because the characters are well-written enough that I feel my heart breaking for Anise, because she's in such a godawful position, and every thing she's tried to get out of it and/or gain some semblance of control over her own life has been thwarted by someone else.

Truly a tragic character, and I'm sad that she really can't end up happy here, whatever the outcome of this fight. If she wins, she gets turned into a figurehead queen with no power or agency, and the loss of her magitech. But if she loses to Euphie, then she gets to watch Euphie sell off her humanity to become an immortal ruler. Sure, that could be better for the nation, but Anise is still mortal and she gets to live with the knowledge that Euphie will go on existing long after she dies, and will eventually forget she loved Anise at all. And that's off the back of Euphie being the latest person in a long line of people to take away Anise's power to make a choice for herself.

It might be the least-bad option for Anise in that she could continue doing her Magitech stuff, but it still comes at the cost of her lover's humanity, and the enduring fact that she was forced into this position by that same person who felt that she knew better than Anise, what Anise needed.

Excellently written characters, but I didn't think this would become such a tragedy, especially since it still seems to be framed as anything but - as I fully expect Anise will be expected to just roll over yet again and say "thank you for deciding the course of my life for me, Euphie, like everyone before you".
 
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I like that story tries to make it seem like Euphy has a point but there is none. She is just selfish and doesn't really care about Anis. Not in a way that actually matters. Otherwise we wouldn't be here.

As a side note, King's bullshit is hilarious. He is talking like some by stander with no power. In truth, he is just a useless shitty parent with no functionality.
 
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The author chiming in on the reality of what would happen if Anise decided to bail makes sense in-context for the world, and is good "insider knowledge" to have insofar as the creator themself has given thought to that "what-if".

Anise fighting essentially for the livelihood of the commonfolk she's grown so close to is really why she'd make such a good queen. Sadly, she'd be a very ineffective one, because she'd simply become a pawn for the nobility that view her with such baldfaced contempt that they'd immediately reduce her to a figurehead and babymaker using whatever handpicked noble they prop up to uphold their own aims for the country. Sadly, pushing back on that now would be a terrible idea as you've stated due to the power vacuum and the volatile ideologies that would clash and cause immediate bloodshed, socioeconomic destruction and simply open the door for rival nations to sweep in and tear apart the bleeding remains.

I very much appreciate that each character is acting toward their self-interests, and it makes this a compelling title with a gripping narrative in that sense. I think it's precisely because the characters are well-written enough that I feel my heart breaking for Anise, because she's in such a godawful position, and every thing she's tried to get out of it and/or gain some semblance of control over her own life has been thwarted by someone else.

Truly a tragic character, and I'm sad that she really can't end up happy here, whatever the outcome of this fight. If she wins, she gets turned into a figurehead queen with no power or agency, and the loss of her magitech. But if she loses to Euphie, then she gets to watch Euphie sell off her humanity to become an immortal ruler. Sure, that could be better for the nation, but Anise is still mortal and she gets to live with the knowledge that Euphie will go on existing long after she dies, and will eventually forget she loved Anise at all. And that's off the back of Euphie being the latest person in a long line of people to take away Anise's power to make a choice for herself.

It might be the least-bad option for Anise in that she could continue doing her Magitech stuff, but it still comes at the cost of her lover's humanity, and the enduring fact that she was forced into this position by that same person who felt that she knew better than Anise, what Anise needed.

Excellently written characters, but I didn't think this would become such a tragedy, especially since it still seems to be framed as anything but - as I fully expect Anise will be expected to just roll over yet again and say "thank you for deciding the course of my life for me, Euphie, like everyone before you".
Okay, I have to object to the idea that Anise has been rolling over her entire life. Al becoming heir was entirely her choice. She abdicated her role, played up her homosexuality (though she really would've hated to be forced to marry a man), and made herself the heretic to dodge that responsibility. As much as she was an unsuitable heir, she was also so brilliant that Al knew that she was the best possible candidate to push past precedent. She was much more capable of doing the reforms that both of them would eventually see as necessary, but what did she do? She distanced herself from Al supposedly because she thought herself toxic politically. But since she did that unilaterally it looks like she did it so she could be free to do what she wants while he, who was painfully average, bore the burdens. Maybe there was a possible future where Anise, Euphie, and Al worked together to change Palettia (something Euphie herself wonders) but it was Anise's actions that denied that possibility. Anise pretty much decided the course of Al's life without asking him and his rebellion was his rejection of it. Anise realizes this, which is why she's so gung-ho about sacrificing herself as some sort of self-flagellation for what she sees as her sins.

When a loved one is about to step off a ledge, you don't do nothing to "respect their agency", you pull them back. Anise here is about to commit metaphorical suicide, pulling her from the ledge isn't coddling her.
 
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Just to note, the author actually has discussed the "Anise peaces out of Palettia" scenario in, IIRC, one of the Q&A chapters of the web novel. What happens is either Anise gets assassinated by agents from Palettia's noble factions or Palettia gets run over by its neighbors a few years later.
I mean that's kind of a moot point considering no author will go "yeah, my setup sucks". That "she will be assassinated" is such a cope out answer, it's actually hilarious. Can't expect anything less from someone who is this devoid of self awareness about how their support cast comes across (dumb and extremely selfish). I think author legit hates Anis and doesn't really respect her much.
 
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Okay, I have to object to the idea that Anise has been rolling over her entire life. Al becoming heir was entirely her choice. She abdicated her role, played up her homosexuality (though she really would've hated to be forced to marry a man), and made herself the heretic to dodge that responsibility. As much as she was an unsuitable heir, she was also so brilliant that Al knew that she was the best possible candidate to push past precedent. She was much more capable of doing the reforms that both of them would eventually see as necessary, but what did she do? She distanced herself from Al supposedly because she thought herself toxic politically. But since she did that unilaterally it looks like she did it so she could be free to do what she wants while he, who was painfully average, bore the burdens. Maybe there was a possible future where Anise, Euphie, and Al worked together to change Palettia (something Euphie herself wonders) but it was Anise's actions that denied that possibility. Anise pretty much decided the course of Al's life without asking him and his rebellion was his rejection of it. Anise realizes this, which is why she's so gung-ho about sacrificing herself as some sort of self-flagellation for what she sees as her sins.

When a loved one is about to step off a ledge, you don't do nothing to "respect their agency", you pull them back. Anise here is about to commit metaphorical suicide, pulling her from the ledge isn't coddling her.
I guess I didn't state it in that particular post, but I read every action you mentioned here on the part of Anise as a reaction to what she had been subjected to previously.

She abdicated the throne to her brother because the nobility saw her as completely unfit to take up the crown, by virtue of being unable to use magic. To me, that's the reason she sees herself as politically toxic; because she had been told she was such for as long as she'd been in that world.
She pursued Magitech because it was her connection to magic, something that gave her joy. But the nobility saw that as heretical because of their views on magic and its intertwining with ruling power in Palettia. She has already been declared unfit for the throne; so she pursues the thing that actually gives her life meaning, and gets branded a heretic by others as a result. Just because she chooses to embrace that title, doesn't mean she gave it to herself in a vacuum.

It doesn't matter how brilliant she was or how average Al was, because that didn't matter in the eyes of the powers that be who would actually be deciding on who would sit on the throne by virtue of who they would tolerate/be willing to work with. Yes, she should have maybe communicated better with her brother her reasoning for distancing herself so much, but I have to wonder if he was so blind to the sentiments of the nobility who are so ingrained in the power structures of the kingdom that he couldn't see that they would detest his sister being made queen? At that point, while she definitely proactively stepped back, I'd argue it was because of the position she'd been put in up to that point by the very people she'd have to otherwise win over, who see her as an abomination of a royal and reject her outright.
And you yourself said before - trying to push reforms and change the system of government would be terribly difficult, especially during a change of power on the throne. So many important people are against the idea of Anise taking the crown that she'd have an even harder time in the political sense, however smart she may be. Intelligence means nothing when you can't get anyone to listen to you, and she lacks the political power and means to make that happen, where someone like Al wouldn't.

They really should have worked together. The fact they didn't is a failing on each of their part, but again, that's not all on Anise, because it's not like she'd been raised in preparation for any sort of political leadership because she'd been told she'd never have the chance, and so rejected the possibility already.

I'll give you that Euphie is right in trying to save Anise. But she's also still trying to dictate the latter's future, just under the pretense of "I love you so what I'm doing is okay", and she's cursing herself in the process, something that would hurt Anise just as much. It's a very no-good-ending situation for them both, because either person winning sees them both hurting themselves and the other in some fashion.

But at every turn, every decision Anise makes, as far as I can recall, is a result of previous situations and circumstances that she didn't have control over. She acted to the best of her ability, sure - but she was never given a true choice, because she was boxed in or branded with a label in some manner from the get go.
Maybe you could argue that something like self-determination just doesn't exist in this world given the power structures and systems in place, but Anise being the lens character for the series, we have an intimate view of how she's pushed around by many different people and forces, and every time she tries to make a decision to acquire some bit of autonomy for herself she ends up hurting someone and suffering again as a result.
 
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I guess I didn't state it in that particular post, but I read every action you mentioned here on the part of Anise as a reaction to what she had been subjected to previously.

She abdicated the throne to her brother because the nobility saw her as completely unfit to take up the crown, by virtue of being unable to use magic. To me, that's the reason she sees herself as politically toxic; because she had been told she was such for as long as she'd been in that world.
She pursued Magitech because it was her connection to magic, something that gave her joy. But the nobility saw that as heretical because of their views on magic and its intertwining with ruling power in Palettia. She has already been declared unfit for the throne; so she pursues the thing that actually gives her life meaning, and gets branded a heretic by others as a result. Just because she chooses to embrace that title, doesn't mean she gave it to herself in a vacuum.

It doesn't matter how brilliant she was or how average Al was, because that didn't matter in the eyes of the powers that be who would actually be deciding on who would sit on the throne by virtue of who they would tolerate/be willing to work with. Yes, she should have maybe communicated better with her brother her reasoning for distancing herself so much, but I have to wonder if he was so blind to the sentiments of the nobility who are so ingrained in the power structures of the kingdom that he couldn't see that they would detest his sister being made queen? At that point, while she definitely proactively stepped back, I'd argue it was because of the position she'd been put in up to that point by the very people she'd have to otherwise win over, who see her as an abomination of a royal and reject her outright.
And you yourself said before - trying to push reforms and change the system of government would be terribly difficult, especially during a change of power on the throne. So many important people are against the idea of Anise taking the crown that she'd have an even harder time in the political sense, however smart she may be. Intelligence means nothing when you can't get anyone to listen to you, and she lacks the political power and means to make that happen, where someone like Al wouldn't.

They really should have worked together. The fact they didn't is a failing on each of their part, but again, that's not all on Anise, because it's not like she'd been raised in preparation for any sort of political leadership because she'd been told she'd never have the chance, and so rejected the possibility already.

I'll give you that Euphie is right in trying to save Anise. But she's also still trying to dictate the latter's future, just under the pretense of "I love you so what I'm doing is okay", and she's cursing herself in the process, something that would hurt Anise just as much. It's a very no-good-ending situation for them both, because either person winning sees them both hurting themselves and the other in some fashion.

But at every turn, every decision Anise makes, as far as I can recall, is a result of previous situations and circumstances that she didn't have control over. She acted to the best of her ability, sure - but she was never given a true choice, because she was boxed in or branded with a label in some manner from the get go.
Maybe you could argue that something like self-determination just doesn't exist in this world given the power structures and systems in place, but Anise being the lens character for the series, we have an intimate view of how she's pushed around by many different people and forces, and every time she tries to make a decision to acquire some bit of autonomy for herself she ends up hurting someone and suffering again as a result.
Of course Anise had good reason to have made the decisions she did. But "abdicate all responsibility" was not the only alternative to "becoming the ruling queen". Her own mother is a diplomat and Anise is clever enough that she could probably find a way to help Al reform the country, overtly or covertly. Because while the nobility broadly doesn't like her, she is not without allies. As I believe Euphie's father points out, Anise does have some sympathizers within the nobility, people who do see how valuable her magicology is. They're the minority, but they do exist. In fact, that was was what got the conservative faction to be so desperate as to help Al become a vampire. That they felt they had to secure his position shows how influential Anise was despite her withdrawal. She could've worked with Al behind the scenes to balance these two factions out. But she chose to recuse herself and become the marauder princess instead. That probably got her to develop her magicology faster, but it came at a cost.

I'm not saying that society hadn't pressured Anise into her choices but everyone lives in a society, everyone feels social pressures. But instead of asking her family for help she chose make to make the choice for them, to make it easier for them. And look at how that turned out. And now she's doing the exact same thing again. This time though, Euphie is not going to let that happen. And ultimately, Euphie is not choosing Anise's future for her, she's just telling her that this future is not open for her. There's still a million things Anise could do, but Euphie is not letting her choose the one where she becomes a sacrificial figurehead.
 
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so girls... You do realize none of you need to be the next queen ? You can just get that kingdom to fuck off. Yeah ? Ok just checking, have a good fight and make up session.
 
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Good comments, testro! Keep them coming. I particularly liked the reminder that Anis is concerned with the people.

You can just get that kingdom to fuck off.

As above, she can't, because of who she is. She cares too much to run off.

I'm surprised at all the hate for Euphie or the conflict in the thread. I think it's pretty clear and makes sense, more than the Algard/Anis conflict which was never all that clear in any of the 3 versions. Anis is trying to live up to what she sees as her obligations; Euphie is trying to keep her from what she sees as utter self-destruction; Anis sees that as self-destruction on Euphie's part.

Someone said Euphie should play politics; she's trying to, by gaining a spiritual status that will give her prestige to be a powerful queen and ram through reforms. (Plus the magic firepower as spirit covenanter to back it up if they give her guff.)

Someone said they should just delete troublesome nobility; they can't. The nobility has a lot of power of its own, and Anis's own father came to power in a civil war or something. Monarchs are very rarely absolute, especially if they try to take on the entire noble class.
 
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Someone said they should just delete troublesome nobility; they can't. The nobility has a lot of power of its own, and Anis's own father came to power in a civil war or something. Monarchs are very rarely absolute, especially if they try to take on the entire noble class
not saying you wrong, but the problem orphen fail to show who stand above whom, n the result all those who support him during rebellion think he as king who only worth as puppet or some one who uncapable to voice their wrong doing,
honestly he should do public excution infront of other noble be it chartue or algard , by doing so it will become massage toward other noble who keep stepping over his head that he not someone they can take lightly.
Orphen ,Granz , sylphi, fail big time , they fail to show who authority, fail to create a chance for algard to show his face or raked some credit.
 
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The LN version of the fight is at least as wordy. Similar dialogue, plus a lot more thoughts. Manga has more focus on the fight tactics, and Anis exploiting the enchanted water is obviously brand new since there wasn't any before. I guess the author had a New Idea.
 

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