The Politics Megathread

[Tamerlane]

@Halo

To be fair, you can still act as a legal consultant even if you’re not the main lawyer behind the scenes or act as a witness, which is still technically “working on the case.”

@Chrona

I know you’re playing Devil’s Advocate, but I still want to explore his/her perspective a little bit and explain why I take umbrage with it.

It’s the job of the people to hold the judiciary to account, as with all branches of Government, as well as the duty of the population to be well informed of the issues that affect the nation. That’s the responsibility that comes with citizenship and the franchise, as to prevent Tyranny and Injustice, and to demand of the government our inalienable rights, meaning these rights are inseparable from the sapient mind. They are to be demanded from the government, not given.

It’s not your job? No, it expressly is your job, no, your duty to be aware of inconvenient truths and injustices that you can’t control as to inform your future actions, and to preserve democracy, which are the duties of the citizens as per the social contract.

 

[Chrona]

@Tamerlane

I know you’re playing Devil’s Advocate, but I still want to explore his/her perspective a little bit and explain why I take umbrage with it.

This is expressly not what I was doing and was sincerely hoping you wouldn't misconstrue it as such. You're arguing with a ghost that isn't there. I am telling you @Tamerlane, he's already clearly stated his position, and you will not change that position.

 

[Halo]

To be fair, you can still act as a legal consultant even if you’re not the main lawyer behind the scenes or act as a witness, which is still technically “working on the case.”

That gives me a hope. Every trial with Rudy involved was amazing.

Spoiler

 

[Chrona]

@EOTFOFYL

Whatever that action could be I can tell you what it won't be. I might not be sane but at least I know better than to challenge a gun; can't outsmart bullets.

Ah see, now a question of practicality (what would actually accomplish the objective) and motivation and duty associated with said practicality are two very different questions. I'm glad you finally admitted that there might be some moral cognizance to what they were doing. Now we're getting somewhere. This is also fundamentally different from passing the buck to the courts, as that doesn't imply any personal responsibility on the citizens part, while this statement does mean there may be a correct action to take.

I would state though, any freedom loving Democracy that wants to keep it's national spirit consistent won't be able to openly fire on even it's most unruly citizens if there's enough of them. If this were the case, not a single one of those rioters would have made it out of the Capitol alive, so the imagined threat of violence against a large group of citizens is smaller than you think. While China can employ such tactics, this is not allowed for the West.

 

[EOTFOFYL]

there might be some moral cognizance to what they were doing.

Wait wtf, since when was that ever in question? It was obvious from the beginning. The execution was just terrible in every aspect and only achieved in revealing their ugly side... or was it their true selves all along? Well either way, congratulations in alienating people in ways never thought to be possible.

 

[Chrona]

@EOTFOFYL

Wait wtf, since when was that ever in question? It was obvious from the beginning. The execution was just terrible in every aspect and only achieved in revealing their ugly side... or was it their true selves all along? Well either way, congratulations in alienating people in ways never thought to be possible.

Since you refused to even acknowledge that the moral action to take when a democratic election is fraudulent and no one hears your cries is rebellion against tyranny, which you repeatedly asserted as not being morally obligated to these peoples view of the world.

I'd also like to point out that the alienation already occurred over the last 4 years as a huge portion of the population was told they guy they liked was the literal reincarnation of Hitler, and the other half of the population, that may or may not be in positions of power, started to need to take moral action against Cheeto-Hitlers "Rise to power".

 

[EOTFOFYL]

I'd also like to point out that the alienation already occurred

And yet there are people who love him for it, I'm pointing more towards those who were on the fence, indifferent, or already covered in cheeto dust.

 

[Halo]

Donald is nowhere near as terrible as Hitler, yet nazis still love the guy https://youtu.be/1o6-bi3jlxk

 

[Tamerlane]

@EOTFOFYL

I'm pretty sure that even though taking the capitol like that looked extremely bad, I don't know if it really swayed people because he's still about at his presidental average of about ~40% with Rasmussen having a sample at about 48%, and other aggregates having him much lower around 38-42%, so he really hasn't changed much. Even with Gallup's research, which puts him lower at he's much further ahead than Congress and the media.

I think it just managed to piss off the media and the people in DC who mostly hated Trump already rather than the public at large, meaning most people likely didn't have their views significantly impacted too much by the protest.

So if you already hated Trump or were just putting up with him, the riots probably soured your attitudes even more, but it really hasn't caused as much of a general impact as I think you're proposing.

@Halo

You might not want to use guilt by association, given that Spencer voted for Biden this time around, and it's not very solid logic to say that "bad people like this person, therefore this person is bad because some bad people like this person," because it's inevitable that every group is going to include a lot of bad people just due to chance alone, and so you need to look at a more representative sample.

The alt-right is basically dead at this point because their ideology was retarded and basically dissolved by the end of 2018.

 

[Halo]

You might not want to use guilt by association...

Of course, this is why I did not use it. 🙂 I did not state my opinion on what exactly that entails. Just a fact: nazis love Trump. Maybe they love his hairstyle, I don't know.
Please don't strawman me, Timur.

 

[Chrona]

@EOTFOFYL

And yet there are people who love him for it, I'm pointing more towards those who were on the fence, indifferent, or already covered in cheeto dust.

And I'm saying that any institution that could actually reign in and direct the type of people to be a the Capitol riot, you know, the media. Spent 4 years spitting in their faces, after 4 years of that, those getting spat on are just supposed to shrug and say "Well the authorities say the election was legitimate I guess that's that." If the media hadn't already severely alienated all of Trump's supporters, I guarantee you there wouldn't have been a Capitol protest filled with boomers. Instead you got people seeing media that told them Trump was literally Hitler also telling them that 1. The election was fair(probably true), but 2. that they concerns were ill-informed and that they're stupid for thinking it, if not outright ideologue zombies. Now the trust is broken there's no reason for these people to listen to perceptively dishonest institutions, and if you sincerely believe that the media stating Trump is Hitler is not dishonest you are reprehensible at best.


@Halo
Didn't Richard Spencer vote Biden? Guess Nazis like him and we should all disavow him.

 

[Halo]

@Chrona But I'm not disavowing him because of that. You guys should stop with your wild interpretations.

By the way, care to provide a link to an equivalent video with a group of nazis supporting Biden?

 

[EOTFOFYL]

and if you sincerely believe that the media stating Trump is Hitler is not dishonest you are reprehensible at best.

I honestly wouldn't have known, never watched; not hard to see why though.

Also ditto on

You guys should stop with your wild interpretations.

and might as well add 'and assumptions.'

 

[Chrona]

@Halo
Then why bring it up, if not to discredit someone by association?

By the way, care to provide a link to an equivalent video with a group of nazis supporting Biden?

See and you're still doing it even as you're called out on the tactic of guilt by association you two-faced moral coward, as if it substantiates to anything other than the most barest stance of "Nazis bad, I don't like Nazis, I don't like the one the Nazis like". Well congrats, you think Nazis are bad, here's a medal for providing fuck all of substance to the discussion that nauseates you.

@EOTFOFYL
If you took a stance beyond "lol don't care" people wouldn't have to construct your positions for you. As far as has been established, you are the type of person to believe an average citizen has no obligation to do anything about a (perceived) tyrannical government. You stated you believed overthrowing a government should not be a violent affair, as if that is possible in anything under anything but the most outlandish situations. That you find this debate nauseating, but refuse to leave from it for some godforsaken reason. That Trump supporters are stupid, which I agree with, but if you take problem with, you take problem with the concept of a unbridled democracy, and that you like to shitpost. Maybe actually posit an opinion and not a shitpost and people would actually know what your fucking position is.

Your most clear position is the belief that no fraud occurred, which I agree is most likely I suppose.

As for any argument that this was never meant to be a series political discussion by the way, I don't think Zephyrus dropped news article links and wanted to discuss supreme court nominations because they are inherently funny as a subject.

 

[Halo]

@Chrona

Then why bring it up, if not to discredit someone by association?

I thought it was an interesting piece of trivia. I even explicitly stated that I don't consider Donald being a Hitler. Sure, nazis love him, but so what? You're acting like it damages him or something.

See and you're still...

Is that a no? Figured.

 

[BrapEbony]

@Halo
You're a disgusting slimy piece of two faced shit who can't even say use guilt by association honestly. Can't even use debate tactics without a shroud of sarcasm and distance. What a miserable way of thinking and talking.

 

[Chrona]

@Halo
We're not idiots Halo. "I didn't say that, you're just abstracting something I never said." No one in this thread isn't picking up on the implication your put forth when you make a statement like that and I refuse to let you play it off. Either own up to what you imply or fuck off again like you always do when someone says something that hits too close to home and you can't retreat into shitposting.

 

[Halo]

The only time when I actually complimented Donald... I see how it is. 😒

 

[Chrona]

@Halo
Aren't you breaking your promise to add "/s" to all of your sarcastic comments for dear Tamerlane's sake?

 

[Halo]

@Chrona No? I mean, I'm being honest here. I apologize if I upset you somehow, but I truly don't understand what's the issue. I'm sure there are droves of nazis somewhere who love Joseph, but just like with Donald, that doesn't mean anything.