Vinland Saga - Vol. 24 Ch. 172 - Sailing West Part 6

[Kaninimus]

@Arkos The difference between the tools you speak of and sword is that the primary purpose of a sword is to kill other humans. A bow is used to kill, but primarily to hunt animals. An axe to chop wood, spear to defend against animals that you can't communicate with (bears for example). Point is that once you use a sword it is 100% to kill another human, unless you're in a situation where you have nothing else but a sword to chop a rope or something similar.

The point is that Thorfinn seeks a world without war, having a weapon that is designed to kill humans does in fact increase the chance of conflict. Reminds me of a man in America who shot his brother to death when the brother wanted to surprise visit him during the night. The man thought he was a trespasser and shot him, had he not had the weapon at hands he would most likely have had called the police or sought a different solution that probably wouldn't have killed his brother.
Point is if you don't have the easy solution that is to kill natives you would have to search for different alternatives first, using the other tools to defend themselves will be their last option.

My take on it at least. Though I am biased since I too don't feel like tools designed to kill other humans are necessary. We are sentient beings and should be able to communicate to solve our differences.

 

[Umatilla]

hate hild shes a bitch

 

[tailor31415]

ugh Hild, can you just chill out

 

[DizzyDazzle]

@Arkos

I dont see how I was proven wrong in that aspect as I said that in order to have peace you must be prepared for war. Hell you just screwed yourself at the end when you include that the natives were screwed over by oppression and exploitation.

Well that's the whole point, isn't it? What is Thorfinn's ideal for Vinland? A land where there is no violence, exploitation, or oppression... Hence, no weapons. Again, Thorfinn isn't being naive*, he understands and acknowledges what he's attempting has never been done before (as far as he knows). The reason why I brought up real life (how history panned out) is because Thorfinn is right. He's proven by history that they don't need swords to live peacefully in a new land in conjunction with the natives, as long as the plan is to stick to his ideal.

What I am referring to is the naive notion Thorfinn brought up and Hild quickly pointed out. Thorfinn bitches about a weapon encouraging the idea to use it for evil deeds when as I stated there are plenty of tools to do that they are bringing with like bows and spears.

As I stated in my last comment, it's about what he meant. He's not blaming weapons, he's blaming what they represent and their intent in that instance. Someone could kill a man with a shovel, but that isn't what they're made for. As others have said, knives, spears, and bows can be used to hunt. A sword has one purpose, and that's to kill people.

Lastly, you also have to remember that Thorfinn was about to explain himself to Hild before she ran off in a huff before he could finish. I'm positive in the next couple of issues, he's going to properly explain himself to Hild.

 

[architeus]

They will be wiped out aren't they ?

 

[Panzercracker]

Sword is not allowed not spear can while spears are true masters of battlefield.

 

[Panzercracker]

@Volphied but in battle, swords are shadowed by spears and polearms (include axe) in close combat and bows in range combat until firearms change the warfare forever. Swords become more like a symbol of social status.

 

[ampnaman]

Hild's a bitch. If Thorfinn had any sense left, he should have ditched her long ago.

 

[kliu27]

Why did the author skip constantinople but write in a shitty wahmen OC to waste panel space?

 

[Eeliejun]

personly I think Thorfin is being naive here. It is right that axes and all other stuff can be used as tools but I would still not trust a bunch of people that showed up on my coast with a bunch of spears, axes, and bows. Personally don't get why all the chars are going on about swords... Axes were the most common tool to be used by the Vikings to fight battles. This was because it was a tool that a lot of people had already at home and did not need a lot of material to make. I get what Thorfin is thinking but I can't be done because you only need one person that wants to mess it up and you are fucked. It feels a bit that the author forgot the first part of this manga. Where killing was the norm and no amount of begging or bloodshed would change anything. How much we want to believe that the natives were peace-loving people it would still not be true. War was a constant thing there too only that they used different tools the swords. Personally to me how Thorfin is portrayed it feels like he would be grayer and think that you need to be able to make a balance.

 

[NoraDaimio]

Hild needs to take the chill pill, along with two character growth pills, twice a day with food or a glass of milk. Maybe she'll become more interesting then.

 

[smegmo-the-unclean]

@Kaninimus don't blame problems caused by humanity on the tools that humanity has created. It's a fallacious move and completely overlooks the fact that if someone wants to kill you, they're going to do so regardless of what limits you put in place. If you don't believe me look at how bad the murder rate is in places like England when compared o the United States at large, the results might genuinely shock you.

Thorfinn is trying to be an idealist in order to put to bed the conflict that he's been embroiled in for most of his life, and though his struggle might be admirable, it's not applicable to a real world scenario in any sense as Thorfinn doesn't have to deal with an overreaching government that wants to impose increasingly tyrannical controls on it's citizens in the name of 'safety'.

what kills people isn't tools, it's a lack of discipline and self-control, and unless Thorfinn teaches that exact mindset to everyone he engages with, and they show that they are willing to listen, then his project is doomed to fail.

 

[flimkrimbly]

if you can't bring a sword, then bring an axe, they're multi-purpose.

 

[Ahmed6180]

Just kill hild already and start a new page.

 

[Azizk95]

hild should've just died in the mountains her whole character arc is pointing a crossbow at thorfinn. fucking hate this bitch

 

[Theozilla]

A number of commenters seem to be forgetting that Thorfinn is still allowing spears, axes, and bow & arrows/crossbows to be brought. The point of banning swords, is that they are a tool who's only primary purpose is for man-on-man violence, virtually nothing else, it's about it symbolic meaning more than the practicality (as other have noted spears and arrows are the far more common/effective weapon used in organized war-fare by a commoner, the Vinland settlers won't be lacking in tools of self-defense).

 

[Arkos]

@DizzyDazzle You saying Thorfinn is right by history when history shows that said natives get boned by weapons by later occupiera isnt proving a point. You are dodging my point entirely or not getting what I am saying. Thorfinn has the idea that bringing sword to a place is bad because it is a tool meant for killing humans even though they have a shitload of tools that could do the same job and probably better as a spear is a proven battlefield weapon. What I am arguing is the weapon isnt the problem but INTENTIONS. You can still come peacefully but be pragmatic and bring a weapon like a sword to defend oneself as you have no knowledge of the natives. Yes he managed to get friendly with some native but everyone is well aware of how humans are and there are certainly native tribes that are more violent and that conflict would be inevitable.

As said in order to have peace be prepared for war. Thorfinn wishes to throw preparations for war out the window in favor of trying to talk every single thing out apparently. Is it idealistic and admirable? Sure. Is it naive and stupid? Most definitely in my opinion. If a person at your doorstep wants to rape murder and pillage then guess what? He is most likely going to rape murder and pillage JUST LIKE WHAT HAPPENED TO THE NATIVES WHEN THEY DIDNT HAVE SUFFICIENT MEANS TO DEFEND THEMSELVES LATER ON.

 

[VoraciousEater]

Please someone redraw that scene into the Spongebob meme

 

[Arkos]

@Kaninimus and said tools of killing are also used to defend people from getting killed by people with ill intentions. You can posture about how much you can talk things out but if someone wants to harm you and you have to wait 5 minutes for help from the police while the offender has less than a minute to kill you than it is reasonable why some people prefer to have a weapon on them. The world isnt as safe and you can bring up an incident where someone caused an accident with his brother yet there also incidents I can bring up guns have saved people's lives long before the police could show up. The world is a complicated place and not everyone shares the same view.

 

[Ryomi]

Well, it's true that the Vinland in our world failed, but i'm pretty sure that the real life Thorfinn didn't met Thorkell nor Canute, so there's hope that they will succeed.