Watashi ga 15-sai de wa Nakunatte mo. - Vol. 2 Ch. 16

[gronkle]

I'm going to leave your explanation of your beliefs unanswered. I will just assume they are truthful to your understanding.

Again, Shiina? She's fifteen she shouldn't have to give up her life to raise a baby

Raising a baby isn't "giving up [your] life". It is life. I will agree that being 15 will carry certain risks and burdens, but those aren't the responsibility of the child to bear.

she didn't ask for to "learn and grow from a bad situation".

None of us do. We learn and (hopefully) grow from the situations life hands us, and we have no choice in the matter. Abortion is a choice; one that is always the ending of an innocent life.

A life isn't a situation

No, it's a series of overlapping situations until we die. In all of them we have choices.

Would you do it?

Yes. I was an utterly unprepared, unemployed, mentally ill father at 19. I love my daughter so much I would die for her, and our 15 years together have given me transcendent meaning.

Now this i1s just me, and my beliefs but you don't have a soul until you gain a sense of conscious self. Your soul is your self, a culmination of your memories, experiences, knowledge and perspective. Because of that, the life that you're inhabiting with your soul is considered a life because you are here typing this. Before any of that, your soul is in a state of can't and could. Shiina would be doing the equivalent of crumbling a piece of blank paper (aborting the fetus), then say crumbling a piece of long lived art (killing a five year old child), that is purely because the soul hasn't existed to paint on that paper. Nothing was destroyed, nothing was even created.

And this is where I get the impression that you've not really thought this through. You have justified infanticide up until early childhood. Go look up when children pass the mirror test. You have also justified the murder of the developmentally delayed and mentally disabled. You are saying that they do not have souls and can be murdered at whim, because "nothing was even created". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt before condemning you as evil, but you really should deeply consider the implications you are making. If my daughter was killed as a newborn, would you have considered her life worthless? Would you expect me to agree? Is not the spirit of a Man in his potential? Why not all remain pure in our souls and never live at all? I find your philosophy ill-considered and nihilistic.

 

[gronkle]

Yours isn't very original, but it was still somewhat interesting. I'm giving you half points.

I should add: Your justification for abortion based on allocation of souls now seems so much more evil; in the sense that you are granting yourself the right to decide who gets to be granted a soul and who doesn't. If that isn't the domain of God (by which I mean "should not be in the domain of Man"), I don't know what is.

 

[ScarecrowB]

i mean, unless the abortion laws in japan are diff, isn't she too far along? unless the guy snaps and just tries to kill her

tho i know she decides to live on her own with her kid

Check ch14, the doctor tells her she has until the 21st week to abort and she was 15 weeks in a coma + 1 week recovering.

 

[wai_ma1]

I'm going to leave your explanation of your beliefs unanswered. I will just assume they are truthful to your understanding.


Raising a baby isn't "giving up [your] life". It is life. I will agree that being 15 will carry certain risks and burdens, but those aren't the responsibility of the child to bear.

None of us do. We learn and (hopefully) grow from the situations life hands us, and we have no choice in the matter. Abortion is a choice; one that is always the ending of an innocent life.

No, it's a series of overlapping situations until we die. In all of them we have choices.

Yes. I was an utterly unprepared, unemployed, mentally ill father at 19. I love my daughter so much I would die for her, and our 15 years together have given me transcendent meaning.

And this is where I get the impression that you've not really thought this through. You have justified infanticide up until early childhood. Go look up when children pass the mirror test. You have also justified the murder of the developmentally delayed and mentally disabled. You are saying that they do not have souls and can be murdered at whim, because "nothing was even created". I'll give you the benefit of the doubt before condemning you as evil, but you really should deeply consider the implications you are making. If my daughter was killed as a newborn, would you have considered her life worthless? Would you expect me to agree? Is not the spirit of a Man in his potential? Why not all remain pure in our souls and never live at all? I find your philosophy ill-considered and nihilistic.

I got a bath running so my answers might be a bit short!

Yes, to an extent it is. I don't think you understand. When you have a child, you are giving up your life (a good chunk of it at least) for their life, even after they become an adult. You put your life on hold to focus on caring for the child that is what it means to be a parent. Or, at least in this case, a mother. There is nothing wrong with that of course. That's just something you have to understand. Imagine being fifteen, and you must immediately stop being a teenager and give up your life for the next eighteen to twenty years. At fifteen you're barely even thinking about your future. It's a tall order to place on a fifteen year old girl. That honestly makes me disapointed in you. Maybe you, or I, worded it and it's leading to a confusion. But the wording of

burdening Shiina with the guilt of infanticide in order to extricate herself from a bad situation she could learn from and grow is near last on the list of actions I'd consider reasonable

to Shiina, putting her entire life on hold to take care of a child, again at fifteen, she possibly didn't even want, to a "bad situation that she can use to to grow and learn from" is disgusting. A life is a life, it is not something you use to grow from. It is not a punishment for bad actions. It can't be a object or a means to a thing. It is a sacred and cherished thing that's created. Going to be honest, I don't really agree with the idea that you don't have a choice in the matter. You will always have a choice in the matter, so long as you can breathe think, and feel your heart breathe you can always make choices. Again, personal belief, but abortion isn't killing a life. Yes, you're killing the potential but it never was a life to begin with, you're really just returning the soul back. Oh, I see now, you're a Daddy and not the Mommy! That explains a lot, no wonder! How old is she? She sounds like a joy! Not going to comment too much but thanks for that tidbit about yourself. Again, I do think things through. Please don't assume thing of others. Yes? I say what I mean, and mean what I say. To simplify it, you don't really gain a "soul with life" until you're like... I'd say 20 seconds - n 1 minutes old out of the womb maximum. Before that, you're not really anything life wise. Now, I don't know what's going on in your head. Those who're mentally disabled and developmentally delayed can experience life, they can make memories, happy ones, sad ones, they can learn, they can love, cry and more. Yes, it won't be the same similar to someone who isn't mentally disabled or developmentally delayed but it's still a life nonetheless. It's kind of fucked of you to imply the developmentally delayed and mentally disabled can't do that, and equating the developmentally delayed and mentally disabled to fetuses who haven't even touched air. No, if your daughter was killed as a newborn her life wouldn't be considered worthless as her life had begun. She has already made experiences such as hearing sound, seeing light, tasting milk, and so on. It isn't much but it is still a life. I don't get what you're arguing because in this case your daughter is in life. I don't know you, but no? I mean, you're a parent so if your daughter died you'd be heartbroken all the same. Yeah, life is the experiences your soul makes before death. Theoretically you could do that, but you'd miss out on the beauty of living, that and there's no such thing as a 'pure soul' unless that soul was predetermined to do 0% wrong before even entering life. Thanks, I don't really think about philosophy much. In fact this is my first time even thinking about it.

 

[isaperv]

And here I was going to say this story has been rough sledding

 

[wai_ma1]

I should add: Your justification for abortion based on allocation of souls now seems so much more evil; in the sense that you are granting yourself the right to decide who gets to be granted a soul and who doesn't. If that isn't the domain of God (by which I mean "should not be in the domain of Man"), I don't know what is.

I mean, yeah? Obviously. I will shed tears for a child who's died because it's a life that was lived and shortened too soon. I'm not going to cry over something that never was in the first place. Also, thanks for the compliment but I don't really control the souls or am a God. I'd say your justification for abortion is just as evil too. Forcing a life into existence despite terrible circumstances, forcing the ruin of a life for a life that was never wanted, and encouraging the negative happenstances sorrounding them. Not to mention the seemingly lack of disregard for the women (or in some cases, little girls and teenagers) in these situations. I pray for your daughter.

 

[danbellucci]

But I do agree to be put down if I become unable to care for myself, I made that very clear to my family.

I said whether you were able to work though. Suppose in a few years time robots with artificial intelligence become able to do all the jobs you can do better and cheaper than you so you can't find any productive job and are now a burden to society. Is it ok to kill you then?
Also I asked about your family members, who presumably don't agree that it's ok for them to be killed if they for some reason aren't able to work and so are a burden on society. In your view is it ok to kill people who have not agreed to be killed if those people aren't able to work and are a net burden to society?
This is the kind of bizarro murderous hellscape society you have to construct to be consistent in justifying killing unborn babies.

 

[danbellucci]

You're correct, they didn't decide and it was an accident considering she didn't even think to use a condom. However, this wasn't a situation where both parties were lovey dovey and decided to have a kid together, not in the slightest. The child was created in the context of an absolutely bat-shit mental situation between both parties that's continuing even now. Where very transparently neither created this child with a clear mind or foreseeable future. It wasn't thought out, nor was it birthed from love. Now considering you and I don't have the statistics to argue for or against your claim about unwanted children, I'm not going to even touch that. That's good for those unwanted children, however, we're not looking at a large dataset of unwanted children, we're talking in the context of this manga. Frankly, I do think it's cruel and I do think in this situation it would be in the best interests for both parties to abort, or at least put the baby up for adoption. Let's look at the situation objectively here. It's absolutely abnormal and absolutely fucked. If this was was any other situation, I wouldn't be arguing for abortion. Hell, I was a happy unplanned accident myself. I know that having an abortion isn't something you do on the fly because you feel like, but something you do as a last resort when there aren't other options and the option is either painful for you or the child. Women don't just have abortions willy nilly or for shits and giggles. Anyways, back on topic. This situation is fucked and that's why I'm arguing that in this specific case abortion (or adoption) should be considered. Shiina is a fifteen year old girl. I think people are forgetting this little detail. No fifteen year old girl, especially in modern day Japan society, should be saddled with not only the trials and pains of pregnancy but also the responsibilities and expectations of caring for a baby to adult-hood at such a young and confusing age. That's a recipe for a disaster. Shiina isn't prepared to raise a new life, hell, she's barely even lived her own. She's not prepared. Physically? Yes. Mentally and emotionally? Absolutely not, she has the mental stability of wet tissue paper in a puddle with severe issues that aren't even a nanometer close to being resolved or managed. Can you really say that a girl like Shiina, with all the things she's done and the way she thinks, will be a good mother? Shiina hasn't finished high-scool, her education, future, and career prospects would go down the drain if she kept the baby. This isn't America where there are lots of programs and benefits for teen mothers, this is Japan. She would be stuck working part-time jobs, barely scraping by and barely being able to provide while being ostracized and looked down upon. That is, if Iwashita sticks around Speaking of Iwashita we have the most important thing of all, her baby daddy. We clearly see that Iwashita is not sticking around, that man is not loyal. He's not mentally well either. As for the most important thing of all, Shiina isn't going to be a good mother both internally and externally. We can already see the cycle in motion, she's going to become her Mom. Alone, full of issues, and full of resentment. I don't mean to sound heartless, but as I said, if this were any other situation then I would argue against termination. Frankly, my stance on abortion is as follows. I believe abortion should be accessible to all women, no matter the reason. That's simply because it's better to bring a child into this world for these two reasons

1. That child, while unplanned, will be wanted and loved.
2. That child was brought into this world intentionally planned and will be loved.

I would rather a woman abort an child unwanted child, rather than keep and resent them that will most likely perpetuate a cycle of violence and issues. I'm not arguing for abortion because all lives are differently valued and who cares if a few babies die here and there. No, I'm arguing for abortion in this case because all life does have value and all life should have a good one but in the face of a life that will not be those things because of the environment and situation, is it not better to let that soul pass on to a different life with a better chance for a happy one? Is that not more merciful? Wouldn't you rather the soul of Shiina's baby be passed on to a mother who will be more wise, capable, with no resentment?



Now, let's be real. Considering your message history, if you're arguing against abortion because seeing cute high-school anime girls getting impregnated is hot and abortion is ruining your stiffy please say so. I will not judge. I completely get it, imagining a salaryman getting pregnant and having his life completely ruined is hot as FUCK.

tl;dr. Are you sure you can't be more concise? Even half of that would be great.

 

[wai_ma1]

tl;dr. Are you sure you can't be more concise? Even half of that would be great.

Nope! You'll have to read it, I'm sorry if that's too much for you.

 

[ScarecrowB]

I said whether you were able to work though. Suppose in a few years time robots with artificial intelligence become able to do all the jobs you can do better and cheaper than you so you can't find any productive job and are now a burden to society. Is it ok to kill you then?
Also I asked about your family members, who presumably don't agree that it's ok for them to be killed if they for some reason aren't able to work and so are a burden on society. In your view is it ok to kill people who have not agreed to be killed if those people aren't able to work and are a net burden to society?
This is the kind of bizarro murderous hellscape society you have to construct to be consistent in justifying killing unborn babies.

If everything is done by robots then I'm not a burden since the robots do everything, now if the robot overlords deem me unnecessary then sure, they are in their right as overlords to kill me, as a burden to their robot society. Same for my family, if at some point I have the right to unplug them I'd do it (unless they saved enough money to be kept plugged, in which case they aren't a burden since it's their own money invested there).

 

[Eighty-six]

Utilitarianism, materialism, and consent-based morality and their consequences have been disasters for the human race.

I get that you're just trying to remain internally consistent based on a frankly arbitrary standard you have set for your edgy little self, but you must see that this is inhuman and would lead to society bearing the moral cost of atrocities?

I don't think he's trying to be edgy. It's just, the notion of unilaterally electing to kill other people based on your own presumptions about how they'll enjoy their lives could never work out-- regardless of who you're talking about.

Sure, a yet-to-be-born child never asked to be conceived... and they also don't ask to be aborted.

 

[danbellucci]

Nope! You'll have to read it, I'm sorry if that's too much for you.

I'll assume what your argument is then.
It would not be better for Shiina's baby to be killed because the vast majority of unwanted children, even those raised in orphanages in countries with terrible orphanage systems like Russia, consider their lives to be worth living. We'd expect Shiina's baby to have a better life than orphanage child in russia, so we'd expect Shiina's baby to consider their life worth living.

 

[danbellucci]

If everything is done by robots then I'm not a burden since the robots do everything, now if the robot overlords deem me unnecessary then sure, they are in their right as overlords to kill me, as a burden to their robot society. Same for my family, if at some point I have the right to unplug them I'd do it (unless they saved enough money to be kept plugged, in which case they aren't a burden since it's their own money invested there).

but you would be a burden because you'd take up more resources than you'd contribute, that's like saying that old people right now aren't a burden since young people do everything.
Anyway doubling down and asserting that if a team of scientists built an AI that could do all human jobs it would be ok for them to order it to kill every other human shows that you aren't serious.

 

[wai_ma1]

I'll assume what your argument is then.
It would not be better for Shiina's baby to be killed because the vast majority of unwanted children, even those raised in orphanages in countries with terrible orphanage systems like Russia, consider their lives to be worth living. We'd expect Shiina's baby to have a better life than orphanage child in russia, so we'd expect Shiina's baby to consider their life worth living.

In that case, I shall assume yours. You're right. It would indeed be better for Shiina's baby to be terminated because she doesn't have the resources, stability, and mental fortitude to raise it and that child is unfortunately unwanted and was created in a seriously poor situation. Not only that, she's fifteen years old. Yes, I am very smart. Thank you for agreeing with me.

If you can't read enough to provide a proper argument, why should I respect yours?

 

[Amazing_Retard]

pseudo-intellectuals derailed the discussion about the CHAPTER and MANGA. Sad

 

[Lustrist]

SELFISH af mf smh head

 

[danbellucci]

In that case, I shall assume yours. You're right. It would indeed be better for Shiina's baby to be terminated because she doesn't have the resources, stability, and mental fortitude to raise it and that child is unfortunately unwanted and was created in a seriously poor situation. Not only that, she's fifteen years old. Yes, I am very smart. Thank you for agreeing with me.

If you can't read enough to provide a proper argument, why should I respect yours?

What part of your post debunks what I said?
Do you have any evidence that Shiina's baby, would have a significantly worse life than a child with no parents raised in an orphanage in a country with much worse orphanages than Japan? It's well known that children in orphanages tend to have far worse outcomes than children with one or both of their actual parents looking after them , so if even orphanage children in a country with a bad orphanages and child social services system like russia mostly consider their life worth living , then we would expect that shiina's child would be even more likely to consider their life worth living.
pointing out that shiina is 15 years old doesn't change the fact that shiina's child would likely consider their life worth living and thus it's not in the child's interests to kill the child.

 

[ScarecrowB]

but you would be a burden because you'd take up more resources than you'd contribute, that's like saying that old people right now aren't a burden since young people do everything.
Anyway doubling down and asserting that if a team of scientists built an AI that could do all human jobs it would be ok for them to order it to kill every other human shows that you aren't serious.

What? I clearly said there that the robots would be the ones who could decide to kill me (since they are the ones producing the resources I am consuming), so you now comparing them to the youth taking care of the elderly means that the youth can decide to kill the elderly. So all matches.

Now here we are talking about sentient robots, if it's just automated shit then that's the ideal society scientist seek, where working is optional, since all the human needs are taken care by machines (non sentient ones) and you aren't a burden to other humans, if you really want to push your narrative then you are a burden to the machines which don't care since they aren't sentient.

Being a burden only matters to the ones you are burdening, other humans in this case, be it individually or as a whole when you leech out of their taxes. A machine doesn't care, or at least you shouldn't built one that does.

So yeah, I am very serious about my viewpoint on abortion and euthanasia based on our current world limitations. And you trying to push it to the limit with your cyberpunk future means you aren't so serious about yours.

 

[MajorLeeGaming]

This entire thread is so fucking funny.

 

[Chusep]

We need some grass over here