Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Ch. 10

[Raptorofwar]

which most likely will not make you healthier nor happier. Especially in the long term.

Statistically untrue, given how more than 99% of trans people who underwent transition would not prefer to go back, but go off, my liege.

 

[Raptorofwar]

The leg analogy sucks. The point that you and a lot of other people seem to miss about the whole trans people stuff is that theres a big difference between biological (Male, Female) and societal gender roles (Men, Women).
Just think that even in a hunter-gatherer society men and women have different roles they need to fill (Men are agressive and territorial, women are creative and good at problem solving...)
The thing is, aside from giving birth and breasfeeding males can fill in most of the roles females normaly fill and vice-versa.

So a born male could never be a female? Yeah, he can't give birth or breastfeed
But can a born man be woman? Sure, if he fills the societal gender role we expect a born woman to fill, sure.
And if giving birth and breastfeeding are paramount to being able to exert the role of a woman in society, then a biological born female who can't birth children is not a woman by definition.

Fun fact, inducing lactation in men is very easy. Ask me how I know! =)

 

[Virescent]

What do you mean about fire force? I don't remember everything about manga but what was author-insert here?

All art and content reflects the political worldviews of the author, even if they don't intend it, but the author can also be cognisant of those views and decide to express them in a more active fashion. This is neither good or bad, after all Miyazaki's movies are a good example of active political messaging, but still restrained enough that the average person could still miss it completely (somehow). The real danger lies in the moment an author flies a little too close to the sun with their messaging, typically because without proper setup these ideas can feel very alien in what was a previously fictional world.

I mention fire force because it's probably the perfect example of an author expressing an opinion so brazenly with a stereotypical "strawman + le epic logical debate bro" scenario that even the average less critically-minded readers were wondering what the hell was going on. If even your most unengaged readers are asking "what's bro yapping about??" you know you've probably gone too far lol. It was plastered everywhere in magna/meme communties so look it up if you're curious.

As I said, this chapter wasn't as bad as that, I was just using it as a worst-case measuring stick. Now I should mentioned when I say "author-insert" I mean both obviously-the-author characters and character dialogue/plot that feels like the author leaked something a little too "real" into, i.e. they inserted something they wanted to express into dialogue. I admit this might sound a little stupid since they obviously write all the dialogue, but there is a difference.

The problem with this chapter is that so far the world has been relatable, but not real. No one has ever had the problem of waking up with a sex change because we don't live in a hentai doujin, and in this world it's apparently even common enough that people know about it by name and there's procedures to help people in place. It's pretty silly, and seems like a fun way to setup some drama with loose parallels to reality. In this chapter though, the mother's dialogue is real, and very much so. If you're at all politically aware on trans matters this will hit you like a freight train because you've actually heard these very phrases and talking points used in real life to debate real laws with real consequences, and you've probably heard them recently! If you pick up on this as a reader it suddenly makes you doubt everything you've read so far, because you've become aware the author is actively trying to say something, even if you're not exactly sure what yet. The illusion slips, and you start to notice the author's hand.

 

[BobTheSkrull]

Fun fact, inducing lactation in men is very easy. Ask me how I know! =)

I'm assuming in a manner different from the Frosted Flakes doujin.

 

[Raptorofwar]

the what

 

[Sonaldo]

Not only that, but the definition of "societal gender role we expect a born woman to fill" is nebulous. It can mean whatever they decide for it to mean. Traditional societal gender roles of a biological female would be what for most of human history? To give birth, be a mother, etc.

...Well then, by that logic he's saying that transwomen can never fill that potential roll and thus be considered a woman because... pregnancy is off the table.

So if it's not a biological function of societal/species propagation, is it a cultural one? Maybe to be a homemaker? That's just a function, that's not a gender. It's like saying, "You're a nurse? So we can expect you to be a woman, then."

Seriously, their logic are always so easy to poke holes at. Because it's not rooted in reality.

 

[Sonaldo]

Fun fact, inducing lactation in men is very easy. Ask me how I know! =)

Fun fact, nobody in this comment section cares because it doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking. Also I'll be happy if you could stop "dumb" reacting to my comment just because you can't face the fact buddy

Edit: @ArcadeAcedia you know you're not really proving anything by reacting to my comments no? Well at least I can thank you for proving me right 😁

 

[Sonaldo]

that's exactly the thing. she'll end up becoming something similar to that of a trans woman which is essentially woman* (astrick applied). she can go through with that but rinko will have to understand how that decision will affect her life going forward. Rinko is in the state of mind thinking this will magically solve her disorder and bring her back to normal without thinking it through fully

Not to mention Rinko already knows what being a woman is like. She'll know the difference between what she used to be (an actual woman) vs what she'll be.

 

[Blackspace_2]

yeah i just had a brainfart i guess. i even wrote it in my comment. (li means love interest)

yea the guy she has a crush on is a former girl, don't you remember?

 

[Kirin-kun]

Statistically untrue, given how more than 99% of trans people who underwent transition would not prefer to go back, but go off, my liege.

Actually, the number of people de-transitioning (or regretting to transition) is decreasing because of better psychological counseling than before.

Which means that some do not start to transition at all because their counselor determined with them that it wasn't what they needed/wanted. Which is a good thing.

Anyway, what Rinko would need here is probably some counseling, to make their decision, but it seems the author prefers to up comedy rather than realism.

It's always good to take manga with a grain of salt, because the author isn't necessarily well versed in all aspects of a topic (the lack of talk about puberty blockers for now, for example) and they tend to up the comedy/drama aspects to make the story "interesting" to readers.

I'd advise to not get too invested in this story/characters, which may be relatable in some aspects to some people, but are ultimately fictional and are what the author makes them.

 

[ARRR]

All art and content reflects the political worldviews of the author, even if they don't intend it, but the author can also be cognisant of those views and decide to express them in a more active fashion. This is neither good or bad, after all Miyazaki's movies are a good example of active political messaging, but still restrained enough that the average person could still miss it completely (somehow). The real danger lies in the moment an author flies a little too close to the sun with their messaging, typically because without proper setup these ideas can feel very alien in what was a previously fictional world.

I mention fire force because it's probably the perfect example of an author expressing an opinion so brazenly with a stereotypical "strawman + le epic logical debate bro" scenario that even the average less critically-minded readers were wondering what the hell was going on. If even your most unengaged readers are asking "what's bro yapping about??" you know you've probably gone too far lol. It was plastered everywhere in magna/meme communties so look it up if you're curious.

Tbh I think the works where authors put their political worldviews are the most interesting, because it is more honest than your average corporate avengers' movie, about everything and nothing. Even if the worldviews themselves suck, at least it gives space for conversation.
I didn't take part in any of the community talks about fire force as i've read it all the month it finished, and tbh i just don't remember my impressions about author's opinions, other than something something souls became everything and ugly d3 became glorious anime and that wait, dude doesn't look like death the kid. I either didn't get that commentary that you mention, or forgot it.

As I said, this chapter wasn't as bad as that, I was just using it as a worst-case measuring stick. Now I should mentioned when I say "author-insert" I mean both obviously-the-author characters and character dialogue/plot that feels like the author leaked something a little too "real" into, i.e. they inserted something they wanted to express into dialogue. I admit this might sound a little stupid since they obviously write all the dialogue, but there is a difference.

This isn't stupid and i understand, I think real-relatable is very digestible explanation why this chapter is so controversial, but apart from the absurdity of the sickness, the rest of the manga has been mostly real - real.
I think that honesty (or lack of irony, or any symbolism that author could use as a shield) is something that make story like this more worth-reading. As a comedy it is just mid, and "I am suddenly wo/man" is a very oversaturated genre. I think the reason why most of us finds this manga intriguing, despite that cliché, is that lack of caricatures and author's aim to distance themselves from their story. I think it's more a matter of loosing lightheartedness from previous chapters, rather than gaining reality.

The questions that i still have are basically:
Is this manga main aim to be antitrans?
Is mom's opinion author's opinion? Or is it plot device to force MC to explore their new body.
Even if mom's opinions echo the opinions of the author, does it make him/her antitrans? Or just insensitive.
If the main character decides to not go through the surgery, does it make this manga antitrans?

 

[Kirin-kun]

Is this manga main aim to be antitrans?

I think its main aim is to make money

If the main character decides to not go through the surgery, does it make this manga antitrans?

I'm sure some people will cry foul in either case.

 

[datmap091]

man, cis people have some wild takes huh

yeah like just take the pill already

 

[datmap091]

Based mom. Cutting off your dick and getting an axe wound won't turn you back to a woman. She need to mature and truly understand that such a procedure won't solve anything.

straight to the transphobe pit where no one will remember hateful bigots like you

 

[datmap091]

People are focusing too much on "the surgery" and not what its meant to be a woman. Being woman isn't all about having a vagina or a dick or whatever, its about your own identity that you're comfortable with. Our protagonist didn't even mention a single thing about having her genitalia medically altered to be of a vagina's, the mother was the one to brought up the idea of what its like to BE a woman, and brought up the idea of "the surgery" and pretty much saying that if you don't have a pussy you're not a real woman. Idk but that seems very ignorant and transphobic to me, intentional or not.

 

[Sonaldo]

straight to the transphobe pit where no one will remember hateful bigots like you

How is that comment hateful?

 

[Sonaldo]

People are focusing too much on "the surgery" and not what its meant to be a woman. Being woman isn't all about having a vagina or a dick or whatever, its about your own identity that you're comfortable with. Our protagonist didn't even mention a single thing about having her genitalia medically altered to be of a vagina's, the mother was the one to brought up the idea of what its like to BE a woman, and brought up the idea of "the surgery" and pretty much saying that if you don't have a pussy you're not a real woman. Idk but that seems very ignorant and transphobic to me, intentional or not.

If it's about your own identity that you're comfortable with, why does Rinko need to undergo the surgery in order to become a woman again? Couldn't she be a woman with a male biological body?

Not to mention the term "identity that someone is comfortable with" is very very broad and doesn't help specify a woman in anyway whatsoever. What if someone identity of a woman is a degrading one? Does that mean that idea is valid or acceptable? For example, @BobTheSkrull here believe only people that sexually excite him are woman. Those that fial to do that aren't. What happens then?

 

[NorwegianJap]

straight to the transphobe pit where no one will remember hateful bigots like you

It's called common sense bud. Not very common in the echo chambers you use I reckon. Gender dysphoria is a serious mental illness that shouldn't be treated through self mutilation.

 

[portable]

It's called common sense bud. Not very common in the echo chambers you use I reckon. Gender dysphoria is a serious mental illness that shouldn't be treated through self mutilation.

People should just learn to love themselve , less expansive and less impactful.

 

[EchoGirl]

Yup, understand the mother's position and the desire to not rush it, even tho any hrt would start with hormone blocking for quite some time before actually taking harder meds

JUST TAKE THE GIRL TO A DAMM PSYCHIATRIST AND LET SOMEONE COMPETENT HANDLE IT.

Gender dysphoria is a bitch, hope she sorts everything out

haven't been paying too close attention to every detail, but has it been discussed in-universe whether or not it'd work?

i mean, they are in a world where ppl 'magically' genderbend at random as opposed to it only affection androgynous ppl/someone that has a strong 'desire' for it (there was one story where everyone was 'genderless' and you had to make a decision by puberty but idk if there are charas that change their mind again or like the main chara where they stay nonbinary for longer)

Be a pretty troll/shitty move if you spent like thousands of money on a body changing surgery and then the next week it changed you back xP