Rework how the new comments system is to be implemented

[shinya78]

I swear, this time, this is my personal suggestion based on my original stance in the matter. It's rather detailed, almost to the point of a revamp, but hey, it's my two-cents.

Home page, Chapter Lists (Outside the reader):

• Revert the comment-container button back to its original function of redirecting to the forums.
• Counter should reflect combined comments and posts, otherwise, just the forum posts.

Inside the reader:

• Make the new chapter comments system exclusive to the reader, accessible via a small icon at a corner when the menu bar is hidden, or with the [Comments] button in the menu bar.
• Rebrand the [Comments] button to [Forum Discussions]
• The [Comments] button should function as it does now, taking over the old system's function.
• The [Comments] button's counter should only reflect the number of comments in the new system.
• Rename "Read # older comments." to [Forum Discussions] or any other acceptable wording, then make it a button and move it to the menu bar below or above the [Comments] button.
• The [Forum Discussions] button's counter should only reflect the number of posts in the forum thread.
• The [Forum Discussions] button should allow the creation of new forum threads if it is yet to be made.

I believe this configuration should satisfy the dissatisfied "mob", and lets the users have both cakes and eat them.

edit:
changed wording on the title (Reconsider -> Rework)

 

[psydynamite]

i for one love that they added an extra new comment section that holds 0 comments for every chapter that makes me have to do two clicks to get to the real comments what a good change!

 

[BestBoy]

argument

Easy there, it's not an argument in favor of or against. It's a possible explanation of the reasoning. It's also a reminder that you can't argue on behalf of the majority, when you're in fact a member of the minority. Your original comment doesn't qualify that you're only referring to the majority of forum users.

 

[Lunkli]

Easy there, it's not an argument in favor of or against. It's a possible explanation of the reasoning.

Even if the term has largely taken on a negative connotation in casual speech, a declarative statement on something (especially in opposition to another declarative statement on the same thing / something else) which is used to support a position is still an argument.

It's also a reminder that you can't argue on behalf of the majority, when you're in fact a member of the minority. Your original comment doesn't qualify that you're only referring to the majority of forum users.

This seems like unnecessary nitpicking, honestly. Like, when we're talking about the forum, why the hell would anyone assume I was talking about the opinions of people that don't use the forum? They're irrelevant to the situation, and you know that. And even then, the comment which you are responding to was literally about explaining why those people are irrelevant to the matter, and that was after multiple other people gave the same explanation, so it clearly wasn't difficult to tell why I was disregarding them.

Out of the people that care to participate in discussions on the site, the majority does not find the forums confusing. If you're going to bring people that only care about reading into this, you might as well bring in people that don't use the site at all. Or people that don't use the internet at all. This isn't even a slippery slope; these people are all equally relevant to this discussion.

When we're talking about discussion on this site, it is only reasonable to limit the discussion to only people that use the discussion systems on this site and care about discussion on this site.

So, I'm going to be honest. Your comment here seems extremely disingenuous. Your previous comment did do, but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, then. I find it hard to justify doing that now.

If you have an opinion on this, then state that rather than trying to make up half-assed reasons for other people's arguments to be invalid. (And don't think I didn't notice that you're only taking issue with the premise of my argument, "most people like the forums," and are ignoring literally everything else, including the reasoning I've given for that argument.)

 

[BestBoy]

casual speech

Well, forum posting is casual speech in my book, and I don't really view providing a data point or hypotheticals as engaging in an argument.

forum

Maybe I misunderstood you. When I read the dev's response, to me he's referring to everyone that uses the site, not just forum users. I don't really see anything in your response that explains why the silent majority would be irrelevant, especially if the purpose of the new comment section is to remove the barrier of entry to engagement for those specific users (making a new account in a new tab on a separate website). There will be users who want to engage, but decide not to because of that. "People who want to engage, will engage" is not a nuanced enough point of view for real world circumstances. It's far too black and white.

Also, you are overanalyzing my replies looking for malice. And since you asked, I prefer the forums to the new comment section.

 

[Mangamoz]

We're still doing this? No one's even using the new comments anyway, not even those who can use it. Kinda don't feel they are worth all this drama.

 

[shinya78]

We're still doing this? No one's even using the new comments anyway, not even those who can use it. Kinda don't feel they are worth all this drama.

The suggestions are fine, it's calling for how the new stuff could be improved or how we can get a good compromise.

People still "arguing" about it? I say let it be, I even got into a small one that could be simplified as two guys shouting "just because you're right, doesn't mean you're correct" at each other in my other thread. At least the complaints about "paywalled comments" have died down to some degree when the fix to create forum thread came.

 

[Mangamoz]

The suggestions are fine, it's calling for how the new stuff could be improved or how we can get a good compromise.

People still "arguing" about it? I say let it be, I even got into a small one that could be simplified as two guys shouting "just because you're right, doesn't mean you're correct" at each other in my other thread. At least the complaints about "paywalled comments" have died down to some degree when the fix to create forum thread came.

Hopefully when they open comments to normies, they actually use them. Cause damn would I feel bad for the dev team. All that work, bugs, and backlash.

Just for everyone to step over it as if it was a turd on the sidewalk. (Disclaimer, I step over the new comments too...).

INB4 the monkey's paw curls, and when they do allow normies to use them, the mods will be swamped with sales bots trying to exploit the new comments. Oh, and can't forget the edgelord kiddies trying to write slurs indirectly.

 

[shinya78]

Hopefully when they open comments to normies, they actually use them. Cause damn would I feel bad for the dev team. All that work, bugs, and backlash.

Just for everyone to step over it as if it was a turd on the sidewalk. (Disclaimer, I step over the new comments too...).

INB4 the monkey's paw curls, and when they do allow normies to use them, the mods will be swamped with sales bots trying to exploit the new comments. Oh, and can't forget the edgelord kiddies trying to write slurs indirectly.

Hopefully, more stuff in the suggestions would stick for those willing to use the new system.

I don't see myself using it on the regular myself, last time that happened was V3.

Oh gawd no.

 

[Lunkli]

[...]

Haha, look at that you've just ignored my entire comment again! I'm done with this; I'm not making the mistake of getting invested in an argument with someone that refuses to take anything I say seriously again.

 

[grrman]

Hopefully when they open comments to normies, they actually use them. Cause damn would I feel bad for the dev team. All that work, bugs, and backlash.

Just for everyone to step over it as if it was a turd on the sidewalk. (Disclaimer, I step over the new comments too...).

INB4 the monkey's paw curls, and when they do allow normies to use them, the mods will be swamped with sales bots trying to exploit the new comments. Oh, and can't forget the edgelord kiddies trying to write slurs indirectly.

My sympathy for the dev teams depends if this is a "we're doing just we're told" or a "we're all in on it" scenario. Given the one reply I've seen from a dev (Ataraxic) in this thread, I strongly suspect it's the latter, in which case, no sympathy.

They should just take the L already and undo this insanity that no one likes.

 

[Narf]

My sympathy for the dev teams depends if this is a "we're doing just we're told" or a "we're all in on it" scenario. Given the one reply I've seen from a dev (Ataraxic) in this thread, I strongly suspect it's the latter, in which case, no sympathy.

They should just take the L already and undo this insanity that no one likes.

I certainly share your feelings. Both of them being fully committed to this change, no matter people's feedback, and on feeling no sympathy if they crash and burn with forcing it on people who never asked for this change. If they are so hell-bent on ignoring their userbase in the hope of appealing to people used to instagram's and other social media sites's style, then they can deal with the bed they've made themselves.

I've admittedly never been the most active forum user, the chapter or title comments are pretty much all I've been active in, but I did use those quite a bit even if it just was for reading what people thought. Since this change went live, I've pretty much stopped that entirely. Sometimes I still clicked on what used to directly link to the comment thread out of habit, only to have that awful sidebar load up and I instantly lose all will to even bother. Yes, it's just one additional click to read the "older comments", but having this shit thrown in my face instantly kills any desire to bother.

 

[Panino]

PLEASE!
Allows us to "ONE CLICK" to the comments in the forums, why do we need to first load the chapter, click to open a menu and then click again to reach the comments?!

 

[Narf]

They have apparently made two small changes now. Have a screenshot of some random frontpage entry as example:

Clicking the comments link in the follow list or the title overwiew now directly opens the sidebar with the new comment section, rather than loading the chapter first. They have also reworded the link to the forums from "older comments" (which was misleading wording) to now "more comments in the forums).

Wasn't the whole point of this nonsense that the comments HAVE to be next to the content because that would drive engagement? A very questionable theory I'd say, but that was their reasoning. Now if they aren't next to the content in that case... why the hell is it still the sidebar rather than the forums that this link goes to first? The entire point they've made has disappeared now that the content those comments referred to isn't even visible, there is not a single reason that this link would open the sidebar first rather than directly go to the forums.


I've also observed that the new comment sidebar isn't properly integrated with the reader. What I mean is, rather than be part of the width consideration of the manga reader, the image adjusting so that its width is fully visible next to the sidebar, the latter just plasters over the manga's imagefile even if the reader is in "Fit Width" setting if the manga's image is large or it's a wide double page. That's just not good design even if I was in favour of the new comments (I very much am not).
e.g. from the same random manga the first screenshot is from:

 

[shinya78]

They have apparently made two small changes now. Have a screenshot of some random frontpage entry as example:

Spoiler: Screenshot image

Clicking the comments link in the follow list or the title overwiew now directly opens the sidebar with the new comment section, rather than loading the chapter first. They have also reworded the link to the forums from "older comments" (which was misleading wording) to now "more comments in the forums).

Wasn't the whole point of this nonsense that the comments HAVE to be next to the content because that would drive engagement? A very questionable theory I'd say, but that was their reasoning. Now if they aren't next to the content in that case... why the hell is it still the sidebar rather than the forums that this link goes to first? The entire point they've made has disappeared now that the content those comments referred to isn't even visible, there is not a single reason that this link would open the sidebar first rather than directly go to the forums.


I've also observed that the new comment sidebar isn't properly integrated with the reader. What I mean is, rather than be part of the width consideration of the manga reader, the image adjusting so that its width is fully visible next to the sidebar, the latter just plasters over the manga's imagefile even if the reader is in "Fit Width" setting if the manga's image is large or it's a wide double page. That's just not good design even if I was in favour of the new comments (I very much am not).
e.g. from the same random manga the first screenshot is from:

Spoiler: Screenshot image

Yup, those are the end results of two other suggestions that went through.

• Do not open the reader if you just want to read the comments
• Be explicit about the fact that older comments exist in the forums to prevent confusing it as if you're going to be navigated to the next page of comments.

They're perfectly fine with the new system being accessible without going through the reader first, but as far as their reasoning goes...

However, two systems cannot coexist with the same weight because the regular users will get confused and wonder what it is they should use. In such case, as a developer, you need to choose which to encourage. It makes sense to encourage the kind that is right next to the content because that is the easier way for the user to comment.

...this means users cannot completely bypass the new system in order to go straight to the discussions/comments that are in the forums.

This very suggestion thread, which could be summarized as...

This 4th one is based off of my original stance when the change is announced, when the new system was still only exclusive to the Canary version.

• It assumes the quick forums button(text bubble icon), now comments button, still functions as it used to.
• It assumes that the new integrated comments is exclusive to the Reader.

...and this other suggestion, which calls for a separate button to go directly to the forum discussions from the chapter cards, are effectively rejected because they wanted the users to go through the new system first. I wouldn't say their entire point disappeared, the new system is still accessible directly from the reader, but it seems they really wanted to prioritize making sure the users would have to pass through the new system for some reason... cue tinfoil hats, but that's for another thread.

Suggestion threads exists such as this one which aims to improve the current design, and this one which aims to move the system away from the current design to become a more forum-like environment instead. Feel free to add your suggestions to any of those threads if for some reason you want to.

 

[BestBoy]

I've also observed that the new comment sidebar isn't properly integrated with the reader

I'm pretty sure that's how the flyout menu has always worked in the reader?

 

[Z3RYX]

Here's a radical thought: why are we showing the new comments to users who can't participate in them? I know they're someday going to be open to every user, but at the moment it is more confusing to the average user to have a comment section pop up by default that they can't interact with. Just hide the new system for those who can't make use of it.

 

[terribletrivium]

Therefore, sorry, but I think having two buttons of equal weight on the reader menu for the same purpose (adding a comment) is not something we can do. Additionally, the comment button on chapter cards cannot open the link to the forums because that'd be confusing and make the user miss any on-site comments made.

It's significantly more confusing that the function of the button that already existed for years has now suddenly changed. Also, this reasoning for not adding two buttons makes no sense. Or rather it makes just as much sense as adding two separate comment sections, so if you can justify one you can surely justify the other.

 

[shinya78]

It's significantly more confusing that the function of the button that already existed for years has now suddenly changed. Also, this reasoning for not adding two buttons makes no sense. Or rather it makes just as much sense as adding two separate comment sections, so if you can justify one you can surely justify the other.

No "two buttons", denied!
Sorry, couldn't help it.

 

[Narf]

I'm pretty sure that's how the flyout menu has always worked in the reader?

You entirely missed my point, despite the explanation and the screenshot, somehow. I wasn't saying that it isn't working, I'm saying that the way it is working, covering parts of the image, is bad design.

 

[BestBoy]

You entirely missed my point, despite the explanation and the screenshot, somehow. I wasn't saying that it isn't working, I'm saying that the way it is working, covering parts of the image, is bad design.

I didn't miss your point, you've just moved the goalposts. If your issue was with a design that's several years old, you wouldn't have phrased it as:

the new comment sidebar isn't properly integrated with the reader.

If you had an issue with the flyout menu, you should have made your own separate suggestion thread about the flyout menu in its entirety. It isn't relevant to this thread.