Have a dedicated button to separate the old comment system from the new system

[shinya78]

Since someone might as well make the suggestion...

Ever since the complaints about the button that used to direct the old comments to the forums are now being used by the new system, and that the old chapter discussion comments are now being buried underneath it. I suggest adding a new button, not unlike the old one, that would serve the purpose of separating the new integrated comments from the old forum comments.

The old button could function the same as before, just rebranded to something different, while the new button would serve for the new integrated comments. For example, forum [Discuss]ions vs casual [Comment]s. (Or use the new button for the old system, whichever is easier for the devs.)

This is effectively a suggestion to rebrand the old chapter comments in the forums reader as DISCUSS(ions), as an example, to differentiate it from the new system that is taking over as the new COMMENT(s).

This would allow users to quickly comment using the new system, while keeping the old system just as easily accessible as it used to for forum discussions, ensuring that both systems could co-exist without so much a fuss.

"Can we have two buttons?": No, it's confusing, and that will lead to a further split of platform vs forums.

Confusing? How?
All this does is give easy access to what still exists as the old forum comments. The sub-forum where these old comments are located is already called Chapter Discussions for that specific reason. Rebranding the old system to something else would clearly tell the user what to expect, light comments about the chapter vs deep discussions about the chapter. Sure, anyone could use either system for whatever purpose with varying degrees of success, but having both options being openly available right in front for everyone to use is better than burying the old function underneath the new one. Users will naturally trickle down to whichever system they want for whichever purpose.

If the idea was having both alive as mentioned by @Bartolumiu

the plan is to keep both the new comments and the forums alive at the same time, with each having its own purpose.
Title and chapter comments on the new system, and general chatting and discussion here in the forums (so yeah, lurkers, you can keep lurking as you've been doing up until now).

Then this should be a no-brainer.

edit:

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Have two buttons: one for forums and one for on-site comments on the chapter list items

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Once again, the reason they give is that it'll be confusing. Citing that their example user would be "confused when they see that there are two kinds of comments now."

How is this a valid reason when:

• Implementing the [new comments system] while keeping the [old "comments" system](forum discussions) alive already establish the fact that there are indeed two kinds of comments now.
• They acknowledged that the button shouldn't open the reader if users only want to read the comments. This is the very same function the old button had, but for chapter discussions in the forums instead, the function already existed.

Hi, I'll post here a reply I received from the developers regarding this suggestion:

Do not open the reader if you just want to read the comments

"Valid. We will be exploring ways of doing this."

• They acknowledged that "read # older comments" should be renamed to indicate that these are the comments in the forums, which are separate from the new system. Surely their example users would see this, become confused, and ask "wait, there are two kinds of comments?".

Hi, I'll be posting here a developer reply regarding this suggestion:

Be explicit about the fact that older comments exist in the forums to prevent confusing it as if you're going to be navigated to the next page of comments.

"Valid. We'll be discussing on the wording side of things and see if we can be explicit with the fact that it is indeed the forums."

• Having two buttons would quickly let users choose whether to access and use the new system[Comments], or the old system[Forums] with a single click. Something the current setup allows for the new system, but an extra step is needed to be done for the old system. Was the plan to make the forum discussions more obscure than ever, by making it one click further away?

The only other valid reason left that I could think of that doesn't go into tinfoil hat territory that would legitimize their claim, is if, and this is a big IF:

• They assumed when the users asked for two buttons, it meant they should share the exact same icons.

To which I say, it should've been obvious that the icons should be different, without the need for us users to spell it out for them. Even then, making a new icon if none currently exists, shouldn't be out of the question.

If they still claim the same reason for refusal, or change goalposts, then by that point maybe it's due time to get the tinfoil hats.

edit:
Mind you, a dedicated button to redirect to the forums when inside the reader already exists, it is even explicitly stated that it will lead to the forums.

Renamed "Read N older comments" to a more explicit "Read N older comments in the forums," as with other relevant forum-related buttons.

All this suggestion asks is to give users the same thing before getting inside the reader.

 

[HaikenEdge]

It makes me so sad and angry that this site is starting to become the crunchy roll of manga

It won't become the Cruncyroll of manga because CR established a position in a market that was, at the time, untapped because online distribution was the Wild West at the time, and could eventually therefore license shows from Japanese studios that weren't streaming to the US before they got up their own streaming services.

MD, on the other hand, can't do this because there already exists multiple websites that legally distribute translated manga to non-Japanese audiences, even if a lot of what we want to read and therefore read here are not available on those sites, because in those publishers' eyes, that content could eventually end up on their own sites where they can make money while cutting out the middleman.

 

[T-sama]

It won't become the Cruncyroll of manga because CR established a position in a market that was, at the time, untapped because online distribution was the Wild West at the time, and could eventually therefore license shows from Japanese studios that weren't streaming to the US before they got up their own streaming services.

MD, on the other hand, can't do this because there already exists multiple websites that legally distribute translated manga to non-Japanese audiences, even if a lot of what we want to read and therefore read here are not available on those sites, because in those publishers' eyes, that content could eventually end up on their own sites where they can make money while cutting out the middleman.

I honestly hope these updates are all just tone deaf instead of someone at the top being delusional enough that they think they can follow same steps of Crunchyroll or Fakku

Like, manga scene changed massively over the last decade or two, Fakku and Crunchyroll were able to go legit cause the situation at the time was extremely different from now, you simply can't pull what they did anymore

Honestly? Believing that would be such level of delusion and out of touch with reality that it reminds me of the knuckle draggers who scream woke at everything and keep saying we need another videogame crash to reset everything, which obviously will never happen due to extremely different situation for videogame market

Really, if that's the long term plan then we might as well just save everyone time and close the site right away since it will be a massive failure and probably slow death of MangaDex, if not a fast death cause at some point they contact publishers and that makes another big DMCA happen or whatever

Either way this update will no doubt be another nail in the coffin

 

[shinya78]

First, in that I am being excluded from interacting with the culture because of my socio-economic status (fuck the poor); second is that by being excluded I have nothing to distract me from the inherent problems I face again because of my socio-economic status. Sure I can still read the manga but I don't because of that wonderful exclusionary line I have to read if I want to talk about it: "Only supporters can comment!" [fuck the poor]

Bro seriously thinks being excluded from using the new comments system is the same as being excluded from using the old comments system, and is being stubborn about it just as much as an American is stubborn with sticking to Freedom Units and not using roundabouts.

• No, you don't have to use the currently pay-to-test system.
• Yes, the old comments system is meant to run parallel alongside the new comments system.
• No, you are not obligated to use the new comments system even when it becomes free-to-play for all(soontm). Just keep using the old system, this is in fact THE WAY to let the devs know that you don't want their new comments system. There's no use to crying about it before it even fully comes out.

It was an oversight; it wasn't intentional;

This refers to the ability to create threads being unavailable to the rest of the userbase. Just grab the nearest Group Leader/Supporter/Contributor you can find and ask them to open a thread until the fix is released, it's not that hard to do.

it was intentional to reduce load; it's not a paywall but we'll keep the payment portal open; etc.

The old system was meant to run as usual (just with extra clicks needed to get there) while the pay-to-testers are sussing out any issues with the new system. THE OLD SYSTEM that you and everyone else use, and has been in-use for years now, is still usable with some workarounds, yet you look at the new system and think they shut you off from the old system. If the bug of not being able to create forum threads didn't happen, most users likely wouldn't even bother talking about this new system at all anyway. So take your grievance of being left out of the pay-to-test out of your orifice, and put it on their misleading wordings instead.

Your fixation with something that's basically a pay-to-test BETA version and shouldn't really be released to the rest yet, is rather telling about your character. Are you that impatient, or are you just searching for every single excuse you could find to take potshots at the website?

 

[shwiftyshfifty]

Bro seriously thinks being excluded from using the new comments system is the same as being excluded from using the old comments system, and is being stubborn about it just as much as an American is stubborn with sticking to Freedom Units and not using roundabouts.

• No, you don't have to use the currently pay-to-test system.
• Yes, the old comments system is meant to run parallel alongside the new comments system.
• No, you are not obligated to use the new comments system even when it becomes free-to-play for all(soontm). Just keep using the old system, this is in fact THE WAY to let the devs know that you don't want their new comments system. There's no use to crying about it before it even fully comes out.

This refers to the ability to create threads being unavailable to the rest of the userbase. Just grab the nearest Group Leader/Supporter/Contributor you can find and ask them to open a thread until the fix is released, it's not that hard to do.


The old system was meant to run as usual (just with extra clicks needed to get there) while the pay-to-testers are sussing out any issues with the new system. THE OLD SYSTEM that you and everyone else use, and has been in-use for years now, is still usable with some workarounds, yet you look at the new system and think they shut you off from the old system. If the bug of not being able to create forum threads didn't happen, most users likely wouldn't even bother talking about this new system at all anyway. So take your grievance of being left out of the pay-to-test out of your orifice, and put it on their misleading wordings instead.

Your fixation with something that's basically a pay-to-test BETA version and shouldn't really be released to the rest yet, is rather telling about your character. Are you that impatient, or are you just searching for every single excuse you could find to take potshots at the website?

I admit I do feel overly aggrieved about the whole situation because I'm struggling IRL, but

can you please touch some grass

instead of telling me to shove things up my ass?

Also, fuck you.

 

[shinya78]

I admit I do feel overly aggrieved about the whole situation because I'm struggling IRL, but

can you please touch some grass

instead of telling me to shove things up my ass?

Also, fuck you.

With your massive 960+ posts and 4.4k reaction score vs my measly 400+ posts and 600+ reaction score?
Why I probably touch a whole lot more grass than you do!

Shove it up? I was telling you to shove it out!

And to you too, GOOD DAY SIR.

 

[Angry_Panda]

Ew, grass.

 

[T-sama]

Grass is for cows and horses, I'm a modern city man, give me the concrete and mold from my bedroom walls instead

Why go out when I can stay in bed like a cripple using my tablet to read and watch Graystillplays among other things, eat chips and cookies, sometimes walking 3 steps to my pc to play games when I find enough will to live to move my body

That my friends is living like a true king

 

[shinya78]

Grass is for cows and horses, I'm a modern city man, give me the concrete and mold from my bedroom walls instead

Why go out when I can stay in bed like a cripple using my tablet to read and watch Graystillplays among other things, eat chips and cookies, sometimes walking 3 steps to my pc to play games when I find enough will to live to move my body

That my friends is living like a true king

Oh dear oh deer oh dear.

I'm a SpiffingBrit and Yorkshire Tea Gold man myself!

...and I'm all out of tea.

 

[T-sama]

Oh dear oh deer oh dear.

I'm a SpiffingBrit and Yorkshire Tea Gold man myself!

ew dirty water, at least it's not coffe :v, only pure cold water for me even if it's fucking winter cause my body is a temple filled with chips and cookies

just for the record in case anyone is curious what I said before isn't exactly a exageration, if I had a basement to dwell into the mold would have overtaken me like Cordyceps infected humans in The Last of Us

 

[BakedBanana]

Ew, grass.

me and grass rn:

 

[T-sama]

me and grass rn:

where is she from? :v

also, does that make her a cow or a hose? they're the ones who love grass the most

 

[kouyo]

I’d like to clarify a few things regarding the "who asked for this" comments. Over the last few years, we’ve received numerous requests across all platforms to integrate comments directly into the reader.
We have explored implementing the existing forums on the site multiple times, but it simply isn't technically feasible. If there were a shortcut, we would have taken it to save development time for other features.

Most importantly, comments are NOT paywalled. The system is accessible to Supporters, Group Leaders, Contributors, and more. If you have one of these roles and cannot comment, that is a bug, not a feature, and we would appreciate it if you created a bug report in the corresponding forum section.
Other users can still create threads via the "Create forum thread" button to continue the discussion while we are testing this new system. We’ve already identified a bug preventing thread creation and a fix is currently live on Canary and should make its way to the main site soon.
We will keep the new system limited to a smaller group of users until: 1. we have tools to moderate it properly. 2. we believe it is ready for a full release. 3. we've ironed out the critical issues. The devs are currently working very hard on these three points.

Nonetheless, we appreciate the feedback everyone is giving.

 

[BakedBanana]

where is she from? :v

It's Yukino and Hachiman from SNAFU.

Source (NSFW?)

 

[T-sama]

It's Yukino and Hachiman from SNAFU.

Source (NSFW?)

Thanks dude

 

[shinya78]

I’d like to clarify a few things regarding the "who asked for this" comments. Over the last few years, we’ve received numerous requests across all platforms to integrate comments directly into the reader.
We have explored implementing the existing forums on the site multiple times, but it simply isn't technically feasible. If there were a shortcut, we would have taken it to save development time for other features.

So again, this is all XenForo's fault.
ONORE XENFOROOOO~!!

Most importantly, comments are NOT paywalled. The system is accessible to Supporters, Group Leaders, Contributors, and more. If you have one of these roles and cannot comment, that is a bug, not a feature, and we would appreciate it if you created a bug report in the corresponding forum section.
Other users can still create threads via the "Create forum thread" button to continue the discussion while we are testing this new system. We’ve already identified a bug preventing thread creation and a fix is currently live on Canary and should make its way to the main site soon.

I did wonder if all those "comments are paywalled" posts are knee-jerk reactions to the now-gone message that people met when they tried to comment as usual using the old forum system. They probably tunnel-visioned into believing one thing, instead of taking a few steps back to breathe, calm down, and understand the whole picture first. Their old habit of clicking that old familiar button and suddenly being met with something completely different probably didn't help.

 

[bigtiddyoneesan]

to (over)simplify, there are three ways this will go:

Option 1: New comment system only
Option 2: New comment system + Old forums
Option 3: Old forums only

from all the mod comments on the topic so far, especially kouya's post in this thread, it sounds like the ones in charge are intent on retaining/improving the new, integrated comments (because they "have more control over it" etc. etc.). while i and many others would prefer to only have the current xenforo environment (it just works!), i don't believe that will be the case. the idea of the xenforo comments being integrated into the reader has also been denied (even though i personally think it would be a pretty decent win-win), so that's out too.

i also think that perpetually splitting comments/discussions into Old/New is far from ideal (and potentially untenable), and MD staff would likely agree. so the solution (and what kouya already mentioned they are trying to do) is to improve the new comments so that they are actually good, and then (, and it sounds like this may be the ultimate goal,) migrate all xenforo stats over to the main site's comment/forum system.

if that is indeed the plan, then there are some things that have to be gotten 'right' so that the new experience isn't a downgrade that the community hates:

-The existing forums/comments should exist (and definitely be accessible in a separate window) and retain their general structure because it's familliar and it works.
-Fundamentally changing the comment section would be a bad move—it's been structured the same for over eight years now, and that's a good thing. even if integrating a 'sort comments' option has an entire chapter dedicated to it in your web design textbook, please just avoid turning this into R*ddit.
-The current corpo slop aesthetic creeping into the main site's social system must be ERADICATED because it's UGLY. honestly you guys would receive a better response by just importing the existing xenforo reactions onto the main site as opposed to the generic cat emote reactions that are there now (no offense to whoever designed those. they're cute, but the people want meguupog)

i'm sure MD staff have already talked internally about everything here so anyway,

tl;dr: please integrate xenforo comments into the reader and call it a day. if that's not an option, please do not reinvent the wheel—keep the current structure of the forums and comments the same in the new system. (also pls fully abandon the corpo slop aesthetic/mindset when designing and refining the new social system.)

 

[BobBiscuit]

Wait... so Mangadex is pushing this system out, and doesn't even have tools to effectively moderate it yet? Even if it's supporters and specific groups of people only so far, that sounds like a recipe for trouble. o.o I sure as hell don't trust people enough to let them talk somewhere I have responsibility over what they post/say until I'm confident that I've got good moderation tools, regardless of who they are. That's how you'd get people posting goatse, lemonparty, or 2g1c in the old net.

 

[BakedBanana]

honestly you guys would receive a better response by just importing the existing xenforo reactions onto the main site as opposed to the generic cat emote reactions that are there now (no offense to whoever designed those. they're cute, but the people want meguupog)

Bring back the meguuus onto the main site!!!

 

[TGN]

One comparison I don't see very often with Crunchyroll is speed. There isn't much detail around from my limited research, but it seems that Crunchyroll went legit in <1 year. That perhaps gave it time to leverage its relative popularity to get deals before pirates abandoned it. Mangadex doesn't seem to be moving that fast, and its popularity has already crashed hard. That might be another roadblock in the site going legit.

I did wonder if all those "comments are paywalled" posts are knee-jerk reactions to the now-gone message that people met when they tried to comment as usual using the old forum system. They probably tunnel-visioned into believing one thing, instead of taking a few steps back to breathe, calm down, and understand the whole picture first. Their old habit of clicking that old familiar button and suddenly being met with something completely different probably didn't help.

I'd imagine the pop-up literally saying "Only supporters can comment." while also forbidding you from making forum comments until a supporter comments doesn't help...

 

[shinya78]

tl;dr: please integrate xenforo comments into the reader and call it a day. if that's not an option, please do not reinvent the wheel—keep the current structure of the forums and comments the same in the new system. (also pls fully abandon the corpo slop aesthetic/mindset when designing and refining the new social system.)

Or as @panzerkampfwagyu puts it...

That would be the dream, tbh.
Make it a forum+