Watashitachi wa Moto Joshi desu - Ch. 10

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Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I don't care. You're conflating the two issues. Don't.

(spoiler)
When people say "respectfully," they rarely actually mean that.
And, respectfully (etc)
Huh. I emphasized I'm trying to be polite and critical, and I didn't assume bad faith, and you've been irritated and paranoid about me. My point was already made by your reply.

Look, I already said I'm not dissecting all the little things you could just look up. It's worth emphasizing some things that should be noncontroversial: I hope you can learn to better acknowledge the power of environmental stressors, and harsh ones that intersect or differ, even beyond trans people and vets. To compare even true numbers they have to be put in full context. The two types of psuedoscience you bring up were both used against minority undesirables by self-certain moralists. Finally, you're not using polite terms or respect.

Whatever I think of you now is implied by your backlash against a post aiming to give a groundwork for dignity and research. I wasn't aiming for consensus, but... Wow. I'm not going to reply to you again, and thanks anyone else for putting up with this display.

Anyhow, this manga is so very gender and transexual even by gender bender standards that I think it's cool it exists for us to read. Whether you've got empathy, curiousity, cognitive dissonance, or whatever, this story is relatable. A teen is stressed out by changes, conflicting emotions, and options in what must feel like an absurd situation.
 
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About the skeleton comment. Seen it used in fashion related story and in that context it’s more about the body silhouette rather than the actual bone structures.
Like there are people with generally straight body from top down, or with more curves, or wider shoulder/hips/belly. Even among the same gender, so there are type of clothes that would look more flattering than other.

Just thought to add this, with regards of the translation.
 
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On all the comments about transphobia. Many many comments.

We're using multiple definitions. The mother did say at least one transphobic thing, a microagression, which some of us took as similar to "you'll never be a full woman". She's a harsh person and a difficult mother. Which isn't transphobic. And she was trying to be genuinely supportive, though you can pick that apart by how medicine works or should work, and if the MC is doomed to full male puberty before re-feminization.

There's not a solid line for applying bigot labels, so I think practicality decides. The mom is trying, she may accidentally be transphobic again, but she's not committed to doing harm or willful ignorance, unless she delays care that the MC will need and forces them to go through more puberty. So transphobe doesn't fit her. imo
 
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I think the mom got some solid points. Rinko really shouldn't be going in too rashly with the whole situation.

The problem atm isn't so much "never being a real woman", it's more "even if you go through this procedure, you can never go back to how things used to". Rinko is trying to "go back to normal", which is completely understandable, but she also needs to realize that she can't 100% go back to normal. Mom wants Rinko to make a decision for her own sake, not for the sake of chasing a crush.
 
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Well she brought up her guy crush and not her being uncomfortable in her new body yes the body is quite different from her previous one but she hasn't been in this body for long enough to say yes I am extremely uncomfortable and rejecting of this new body
She SHOULD want the surgery for herself, growing up as a woman an all BUT the author is writing it out like her main reason is to live for her guy crush. Author writing like this just to prolonge the story yk or else manga done and no more drama
 
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Huh. I emphasized I'm trying to be polite and critical, and I didn't assume bad faith, and you've been irritated and paranoid about me. My point was already made by your reply.

Spare me the bullshit.

You accused and insinuated I was disgusted with transpeople. You insinuated I believed in conspiracy theories without evidence. You were not polite, you did not exhibit good faith. You accused me of paranoia. So you're just projecting at this point. I really like how you insinuating I was coming at it from a political angle and accused me of infantilizing transgendered people... and then compared their personal struggles to fucking climate science. That was... chef's kiss.

Look, I already said I'm not dissecting all the little things you could just look up.

Which is also called "dodging."

It's worth emphasizing some things that should be noncontroversial: I hope you can learn to better acknowledge the power of environmental stressors, and harsh ones that intersect or differ, even beyond trans people and vets.

You're the one that stated that suicide rates "are relevant in context of how a society treats people." Does this logic apply with veterans who have a high suicide rate and are treated well by society? No. Then your theory is flawed and you know it.

The two types of psuedoscience you bring up were both used against minority undesirables by self-certain moralists.

Aaaand you're doing exactly like what I said you'd do and misconstrue the context on why and how I brought them up.

Finally, you're not using polite terms or respect.

Yes, I am. None of the terms I've been using have been slurs or disrespectful terms. You're lying and you know it.

Whatever I think of you now is implied by your backlash against a post aiming to give a groundwork for dignity and research.

By accusing me of bigotry/disgust? By making unfounded logical leaps that I easily disproved with the veterans example? By insinuating that I'm perpetuating or believing in conspiracy theories? Insinuating I'm pushing a political angle while you do so with bringing up climate science deniers in the same breath as transgendered issues?

Don't bullshit me.

I'm not going to reply to you again, and thanks anyone else for putting up with this display.

Good. Because you've already established you're operating from malfeasance.
 
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Well she brought up her guy crush and not her being uncomfortable in her new body yes the body is quite different from her previous one but she hasn't been in this body for long enough to say yes I am extremely uncomfortable and rejecting of this new body
She thought about her guy crush after her mother brought it up first leading her to the reaction. Her mom could have asked "why do you want to go back?" instead of "who do you want to go back for? a lover?" It might be a lost in translation thing since she's not Japanese IIRC. But I'm pretty sure it's because her mom is so over bearing she feels like she always had to follow along with her mom's train of thought.

This is a lot tamer than their other work with the same story but it got canceled. In the other work they started self harming after the sudden sex change to show how wrong it felt to be in the new body.
 
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Suicide rates are relevant in context of how a society treats people, which given the media environment involves discrimination.

ABSOLUTE HORSESHIT. And I can prove it. Again, like I brought up with the other person: What is another group with astronomically high rates of suicide - still far belong transgendered people by comparable for statistical purposes? American veterans. Who, again, are one of the most respected and accepted groups in American culture and society? American veterans.

American veterans, like transgendered people, aren't killing themselves because of discrimination. They'd doing it because of their personal situation.

"Poor exercise and diet can considerably contribute to the development of type 2 diabetes"

"ABSOLUTE HORSESHIT. And I can prove it. There are plenty of people that eat healthy and get exercise that still struggle with type 1 diabetes. People with type 1 diabetes, like people with type 2 diabetes, aren't impacted by their diet and lifestyle."

The brainrot is real. One of the dumbest things I've read in a while.

And if you look at the suicide rates of transgendered people in more "open minded and progressive" countries/states... it's not significantly lower. There's no correlation.

Completely fabricated and false:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5564039/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2

1. the stats are higher than the general population even after surgery, sure, but what your intentionally leaving out is the stat is still lower than those who are trans but havent yet gotren surgery, so its still objectively an improvement
Actually, it's not. It's the same or worse:
https://www.auajournals.org/doi/10.1097/JU.0000000000001971.20

Wow, you found one study that, kind of, agrees with your biases (if you squint hard enough) and now correlation = causation?
Even though there's plenty of other (often larger) studies that suggest the opposite:
https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/s12889-015-1867-2
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2789423
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7317390/

And hey... weren't you claiming that the surgery is causing suicide? Now you're saying that suicide rates after surgery are the same or worse? Which one is it? How can they be causing suicide if the rates stay the same?

And do you actually want to read through that article you linked? All sampled participants in the study went through GAS. Where's the sample of the population that didn't receive GAS represented in this study? Oh, they're not there. Because this study does nothing to show the suicide risk of GAS patients vs non-GAS patients. You literally just looked for the first result that had something along the lines of "increase in risk after surgery" and scooped it up.

And you notice how there's actually a decrease in psychiatric risk in phalloplasty surgery patients? And no significant increase in psychiatric risk in vaginoplasty surgery? Only increased risk in suicide?

Whatever could explain that?

The only thing both sides can agree on readily is not enough scientific studies have been done on this subject.

We could fill the Marianas Trench with scientific studies and you still wouldn't be any closer to understanding the topic since you're clearly scientifically illiterate. All you have are gish gallops and misrepresentations of statistics that you don't have the training to parse.

The evidence has been conclusive for decades: gender affirmative care is the most and only effective treatment we have for dysphoria to date. Denying that care when it is wanted only causes harm. It's not up for debate within the scientific community.
 
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Just because she used to have one? If someone loses a leg, do we just let them bleed out because we can't give them a real leg yet?
No. We treat the leg to prevent death from blood loss and if it's impossible to be reattached, we tell the truth to the patient. We then will proceed with option the next logical option, prosthetic in case the patient wants to and are capable. However, we will not lie to the patient and call the prosthetic a "trans-leg" and let them pretend as an able bodied person by identifying as one. We recognize the biological difference that they now have over a normal person with two legs.
 
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I think the mom got some solid points. Rinko really shouldn't be going in too rashly with the whole situation.

The problem atm isn't so much "never being a real woman", it's more "even if you go through this procedure, you can never go back to how things used to". Rinko is trying to "go back to normal", which is completely understandable, but she also needs to realize that she can't 100% go back to normal. Mom wants Rinko to make a decision for her own sake, not for the sake of chasing a crush.
But how she was before is a woman. Like that's the whole problem with this. She used to be a woman and now she's a man because she has a male body. The mum is right. All those surgery and hormones aint gonna turn her into a woman again. If you're saying she's still a woman despite having a man body, why even go with all those surgery and hormones to change it? Just be a woman with a man body. The fact that Rinko knows this is impossible proves her mum is right. Rinko should just accept that fact. She's a man now.
 
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"Poor exercise and diet can considerably contribute to the development of type 2 diabetes"

"ABSOLUTE HORSESHIT. And I can prove it. There are plenty of people that eat healthy and get exercise that still struggle with type 1 diabetes. People with type 1 diabetes, like people with type 2 diabetes, aren't impacted by their diet and lifestyle."

The brainrot is real. One of the dumbest things I've read in a while.

False equivalence. Yes, the brainrot is real.


The suicidal behavior and suicide attempt rates are reported to be significantly high among transgender persons compared to general population across the countries. Thirty-one percent of transgender persons in India end their life by committing suicide, and 50% of them have attempted for suicide at least once before their 20th birthday; however, the exact prevalence of completed suicide among transgender persons in the country remain undocumented. Forty-one percent of the transgender persons in the United States attempt for suicide at least once in their life. In San Francisco, the prevalence of attempted suicide among transgender persons is 32%, among young age (<25 years) it is 50%. Suicidality and self-harm behavior are serious problems among sexual minorities in Japan. Transgender persons are at higher risk for suicidal ideation and suicide attempts at Virginia. Fifty percent of transgender persons in Australia have attempted suicide at least once in their lives. In England, 48% of the transgender young people had attempted suicide at least once in their lives. The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery.

Wow. You managed to find a study that shows that transgender suicide attempts in San Francisco, a beacon of acceptance and progressive tolerance, has the same higher-end suicide rate as... India.

...You somehow think this is helping your argument? When you just proved my argument for me?


Netherlands only study, nothing to disprove my claims. Unless you want to argue the Netherlands is a bastion of anti-trans hate.



Hollywood only study focusing on only 99 transwomen. Suicide rate is also comparable with the above figures of the low-end range of San Francisco.

Nothing to disprove my argument.


Year long study among Ontario with 380 reports with an 11.2% reported suicide rate. The lowest yet. And the same study also claims that completed suicide attempts is unknown (...fucking how?).

Ah, but there's a catch:
Studies in Canada, Europe, and the United States have reported suicide attempt prevalences within the trans population that range from 22 to 43 % over the lifetime and 9 to 10 % for the past year

...So the 11.2% attempted suicide rate for the past year is actually higher than the average of Canada/Europe/United States in this case. Whoops.

Wow, you found one study that, kind of, agrees with your biases (if you squint hard enough) and now correlation = causation?

Not kind of. Does. And I'm stating what the evidence points to.

Even though there's plenty of other (often larger) studies that suggest the opposite:
https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(21)00568-1/fulltext

Hormone therapy only study. Not applicable. Did you... not read it?

Also some interesting tidbits from that study:
However, thus far, there are no large-scale studies comparing mental health and suicidality among transgender and nonbinary youth who wanted GAHT and received it to those who wanted it but did not receive it

Chi-squared tests of independence were used to compare the 9,019 youth who had GAHT data to the 2,895 who did not. There were no significant differences within sexual identity, socioeconomic status, census region, gender identity support from parents, gender identity-based victimization, or GICE.



Repeat source.

Also, interesting tidbits:
The prevalence of suicide remains high among transgender persons irrespective of disclosing their transgender status to others and undergoing sex reassignment surgery.

The psychological autopsy of the completed suicides among transgender persons has revealed that the factors such as break-up of love relationship initiated by the partner (64.3%), serious altercations with family members (14.3%), refusal of gender/sex reassignment by the family members (9.5%), financial problems (9.5%), being diagnosed with HIV positive in the past few days/weeks (2.4%) have triggered the act of suicide among the victims.


Another repeat source (you're getting even lazier).

Problem here.
inally, we found that among those reporting a need to medically transition through hormones and/or surgeries, suicidality was substantially reduced among those who had completed a medical transition (this involved varying procedures based on personal needs [16]). Despite potentially large reductions in risk for those completing medical transition, the period of being in process did not represent a clear mid-point in risk. While suicidal ideation was significantly reduced for those in process versus those who were planning to transition but had not begun, among the sub-group considering suicide the attempt rate was highest among those in process.

The study does not state what percentage or decrease this does. And the study it's referencing does not either.


104 person study and not about surgical transitions.


Prevalence rates on suicidal attempts in trans people, which are generally observed to be lower than suicidal ideation, showed to be lower but also with a wide variation in reported rates, ranging from 9.8% up to 44%. Since structured prevalence studies on suicide deaths are lacking in the transgender literature, an estimation comes from a limited number of studies reporting on suicide death rates in small study samples. Derived from a systematic review on suicidality in trans people by Marshall et al., suicide death rates varied from 0% to 4.2% in a sample of 24 post‐treatment trans people from Sweden. Six of these studies only included postsurgical people whereas two studies also included trans people who were only using hormones without surgery. However, studies differentiating the treatment stage during which death by suicide occurred are lacking. In addition, studies differentiating between suicide in trans women and trans men are scarce.

Wow. Sample size of... 24 people... and even the study itself admitting there's not enough data to do a proper statistical analysis. Impressive.

And hey... weren't you claiming that the surgery is causing suicide? Now you're saying that suicide rates after surgery are the same or worse? Which one is it? How can they be causing suicide if the rates stay the same?

And how can the surgery be helping when it's the same suicide rate or worse?

You can't have this cake and eat it as well.

And do you actually want to read through that article you linked? All sampled participants in the study went through GAS. Where's the sample of the population that didn't receive GAS represented in this study? Oh, they're not there. Because this study does nothing to show the suicide risk of GAS patients vs non-GAS patients. You literally just looked for the first result that had something along the lines of "increase in risk after surgery" and scooped it up.

Considering I just went through your entire rapid-fire attempt of sources and none of them actually back you up or disprove me... Hollow words.

And you notice how there's actually a decrease in psychiatric risk in phalloplasty surgery patients? And no significant increase in psychiatric risk in vaginoplasty surgery? Only increased risk in suicide?

"Only" increased suicide risk.

Only.

We could fill the Marianas Trench with scientific studies and you still wouldn't be any closer to understanding the topic since you're clearly scientifically illiterate. All you have are gish gallops and misrepresentations of statistics that you don't have the training to parse.

"Gish gallops
"MIsrepresentation of statistics"
"Scientifically illiterate"

The movie theater is calling, they want their projectionist back.

The evidence has been conclusive for decades: gender affirmative care is the most and only effective treatment we have for dysphoria to date. Denying that care when it is wanted only causes harm. It's not up for debate within the scientific community.

I'm sorry, was I mentioning gender affirming care as a whole? No? Then straw man argument.
 
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This chapter doesn't make any sense. Handling the issue in-universe with the current day talking points is retarded. There is a disease which causes you to change your gender overnight and apperently nothing is really known about it. That in itself is already stupid enough but its manga logic so whatever. However discussing it in the comments like this plot point doesn't exist is even more stupid.
 
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This chapter doesn't make any sense. Handling the issue in-universe with the current day talking points is retarded. There is a disease which causes you to change your gender overnight and apperently nothing is really known about it. That in itself is already stupid enough but its manga logic so whatever. However discussing it in the comments like this plot point doesn't exist is even more stupid.
There is the appeal of dealing with fantastical stuff with real-life stuff like for example, fighting fantasy monsters with 21st century weaponry and all the realistic problem that comes with it (using weapons specifically about killing humans with soft tissue against supernatural hard skin, logistic problem, etc) so I don't find this premise to be stupid. However I feel like the discussion here are a bit off, like most of us here missed several details.

I think it all stems back to the MC herself; all the discussion here operate under assumption that she willingly did the transition to male or the disease/syndrome acted on her subconscious desire to be male which isn't the case; she fully identify herself as female from the very beginning, suddenly she wake up as male, and she wanted to return back to her initial gender.
 
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Mums logic is fucked consider its not like she is asking for permission to transition to a new gender just to transition back into being cis.

There is also literally no reason she wouldn't just say fuck you mum of cause i want to return to the gender i was entirely comfortable with its got nothing to do with wanting some dude to bang her
 

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