Have a dedicated button to separate the old comment system from the new system

[shinya78]

Since someone might as well make the suggestion...

Ever since the complaints about the button that used to direct the old comments to the forums are now being used by the new system, and that the old chapter discussion comments are now being buried underneath it. I suggest adding a new button, not unlike the old one, that would serve the purpose of separating the new integrated comments from the old forum comments.

The old button could function the same as before, just rebranded to something different, while the new button would serve for the new integrated comments. For example, forum [Discuss]ions vs casual [Comment]s. (Or use the new button for the old system, whichever is easier for the devs.)

This is effectively a suggestion to rebrand the old chapter comments in the forums reader as DISCUSS(ions), as an example, to differentiate it from the new system that is taking over as the new COMMENT(s).

This would allow users to quickly comment using the new system, while keeping the old system just as easily accessible as it used to for forum discussions, ensuring that both systems could co-exist without so much a fuss.

"Can we have two buttons?": No, it's confusing, and that will lead to a further split of platform vs forums.

Confusing? How?
All this does is give easy access to what still exists as the old forum comments. The sub-forum where these old comments are located is already called Chapter Discussions for that specific reason. Rebranding the old system to something else would clearly tell the user what to expect, light comments about the chapter vs deep discussions about the chapter. Sure, anyone could use either system for whatever purpose with varying degrees of success, but having both options being openly available right in front for everyone to use is better than burying the old function underneath the new one. Users will naturally trickle down to whichever system they want for whichever purpose.

If the idea was having both alive as mentioned by @Bartolumiu

the plan is to keep both the new comments and the forums alive at the same time, with each having its own purpose.
Title and chapter comments on the new system, and general chatting and discussion here in the forums (so yeah, lurkers, you can keep lurking as you've been doing up until now).

Then this should be a no-brainer.

edit:

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Have two buttons: one for forums and one for on-site comments on the chapter list items

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Once again, the reason they give is that it'll be confusing. Citing that their example user would be "confused when they see that there are two kinds of comments now."

How is this a valid reason when:

• Implementing the [new comments system] while keeping the [old "comments" system](forum discussions) alive already establish the fact that there are indeed two kinds of comments now.
• They acknowledged that the button shouldn't open the reader if users only want to read the comments. This is the very same function the old button had, but for chapter discussions in the forums instead, the function already existed.

Hi, I'll post here a reply I received from the developers regarding this suggestion:

Do not open the reader if you just want to read the comments

"Valid. We will be exploring ways of doing this."

• They acknowledged that "read # older comments" should be renamed to indicate that these are the comments in the forums, which are separate from the new system. Surely their example users would see this, become confused, and ask "wait, there are two kinds of comments?".

Hi, I'll be posting here a developer reply regarding this suggestion:

Be explicit about the fact that older comments exist in the forums to prevent confusing it as if you're going to be navigated to the next page of comments.

"Valid. We'll be discussing on the wording side of things and see if we can be explicit with the fact that it is indeed the forums."

• Having two buttons would quickly let users choose whether to access and use the new system[Comments], or the old system[Forums] with a single click. Something the current setup allows for the new system, but an extra step is needed to be done for the old system. Was the plan to make the forum discussions more obscure than ever, by making it one click further away?

The only other valid reason left that I could think of that doesn't go into tinfoil hat territory that would legitimize their claim, is if, and this is a big IF:

• They assumed when the users asked for two buttons, it meant they should share the exact same icons.

To which I say, it should've been obvious that the icons should be different, without the need for us users to spell it out for them. Even then, making a new icon if none currently exists, shouldn't be out of the question.

If they still claim the same reason for refusal, or change goalposts, then by that point maybe it's due time to get the tinfoil hats.

 

[T-sama]

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

The button was used for the forum for months / years and the change literally confused and angered people cause they thought forum was removed altogether

Also, overall people seeing to be hating the change too

This idea that having two buttons will be confusing doesn't really holds a lot of water in practice :v

 

[shinya78]

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Actually. How.

I made it a point that there should now be a distinction between [Comments] and [Discussions], or in another egregious example, what's in the [Notice Board] (which is essentially main-side short announcements) vs what's in the [Development Updates Threads] (forum-side announcements). Are the devs assuming that people are too dumb to know the difference? Are they being serious right now? It's just two options, two!

Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, clicks the only button these 'thanks for the chapter' comments are worthless! Where's the quick forums button so I can engage in deep meaningful discussions? It's missing!? completely ignores [Read # older comments.] thinking it would be more of the same ThE sItE iS dYiNg!"

I can see that the real "confusion" lies in the fact that the [Manga Discussions] sub-forum was used to cover for [Comments] before, but now that the new system is going to take over for that, it's about time to make it clear that the option that takes them to the forums is for [Discussions], and what doesn't is for [Comments]. Having the option to let the users choose where to go, shouldn't be a source of confusion. The devs assuming that it would be confusing is more of an insult to users than anything.

Edit:
Is it the button icon? Because if it is, I'll take back what I said about the devs assuming people are dumb. The new system can keep the word bubble icon for that matter then. It is too much to ask for the forums discussion button to have an, I dunno, Ancient Greek-styled forum building icon or pillar icon or something?

 

[T-sama]

tbh... instead of making facebook ah comsec for the main site... because I can clearly see they want the site to turn into a socmed place in the future,

implement something like this:

booru use this, some of the old manga sites used this for feature schites and giggles, and tbh a far more useful thing for giving TL Notes and context to stuff while reading so you don't get lost on some stuff 'cause "missing context".

a toggable on/off switch is really easy imo...

and if tbh, if they want to proceed with their socmed vision, just give us two separate clickable button for either comsec or forums.

This brings back memories of when I used Mangahere and people could comment like that :v

 

[shinya78]

Me-thinks the devs think two buttons would be confusing has more to do with the button icon being the same, not accounting for just having a new icon to represent the forum discussions to differentiate it from comments.

Any suggestions for a new [Forum Discussions] icon, now that the text bubble icon is used for [Comments]?
I'll go first, [Multiple text bubbles].

 

[Mangamoz]

Me-thinks the devs think two buttons would be confusing has more to do with the button icon being the same, not accounting for just having a new icon to represent the forum discussions to differentiate it from comments.

Any suggestions for a new [Forum Discussions] icon, now that the text bubble icon is used for [Comments]?
I'll go first, [Multiple text bubbles].

Hi, local doomposter here. Here is my nihilistic theory as to why they don't want to do that:

They intended for this annoyance of being forced to open a chap to comment, to be a way to force guests to waste their limited clicks, with that system that went wrong some days back.

Just my random gut hunch, feel free to shit on it if necessary.

 

[shinya78]

They intended for this annoyance of being forced to open a chap to comment, to be a way to force guests to waste their limited clicks, with that system that went wrong some days back.

Enshittification Enshittifies

 

[T-sama]

Hi, local doomposter. Here is my nihilistic theory as to why they don't want to do that:

They intended for this annoyance of being forced to open a chap to comment, to be a way to force guests to waste their limited clicks, with that system that went wrong some days back.

Just my random gut hunch, feel free to shit on it if necessary.

To be fair it could be simpler lol, classic heads in the sand management, they made a decision they thought was a good idea, the backlash is obviously pretty big and they will double down instead of accepting maybe it was done in the worst way possible and probably was unnecessary change to begin with

Seriously, the more series updates I read comments the more obvious negative reaction is pretty frequent but it looks like it's gonna be ignored

 

[Mangamoz]

To be fair it could be simpler lol, classic heads in the sand management, they made a decision they thought was a good idea, the backlash is obviously pretty big and they will double down instead of accepting maybe it was done in the worst way possible and probably was unnecessary change to begin with

Seriously, the more series updates I read comments the more obvious negative reaction is pretty frequent but it looks like it's gonna be ignored

I see almost everyone just "walking around" the new comments.

 

[T-sama]

Enshittification Enshittifies

Businessfication :v

I can't help but feel there's some change at the top, like new people making the decisions or whatever ever since Mangadex was registered as a business in UK, cause this feels like classic executive thinks he knows better than the users and the takes the worst possible decisions lol

 

[BakedBanana]

Actually. How.

I made it a point that there should now be a distinction between [Comments] and [Discussions], or in another egregious example, what's in the [Notice Board] (which is essentially main-side short announcements) vs what's in the [Development Updates Threads] (forum-side announcements). Are the devs assuming that people are too dumb to know the difference? Are they being serious right now? It's just two options, two!

Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, clicks the only button these 'thanks for the chapter' comments are worthless! Where's the quick forums button so I can engage in deep meaningful discussions? It's missing!? completely ignores [Read # older comments.] thinking it would be more of the same ThE sItE iS dYiNg!"

I can see that the real "confusion" lies in the fact that the [Manga Discussions] sub-forum was used to cover for [Comments] before, but now that the new system is going to take over for that, it's about time to make it clear that the option that takes them to the forums is for [Discussions], and what doesn't is for [Comments]. Having the option to let the users choose where to go, shouldn't be a source of confusion. The devs assuming that it would be confusing is more of an insult to users than anything.

Edit:
Is it the button icon? Because if it is, I'll take back what I said about the devs assuming people are dumb. The new system can keep the word bubble icon for that matter then. It is too much to ask for the forums discussion button to have an, I dunno, Ancient Greek-styled forum building icon or pillar icon or something?

If that doesn't work, couldn't they do something like what they did with Xenforo where @MangaDex has a pinned comment at the top that links to the forums?

For example, users are already doing this:

 

[T-sama]

I see almost everyone just "walking around" the new comments.

To be fair it doesn't help that only supporters can use it anyway, pretty sure I've seen even supporters just use the forum instead though cause people want proper discussions lol

The worst part is that like, I'm not against this addition in itself but changing the button function this late in the game is just confusing and part of the reason for the backlash lol

Fact that only supporters can create threads and the thread link will be at the bottom of the new comment section doesn't help

And before someone tries to say it's a bug or whatever that doesn't matter, the damage is done and the lack of communication only makes it worse

And before someone tries to say there is communication due to Notification tab or whatever that doesn't work cause vast majority of people won't go out of their way to look at it

Seriously, make site update, news or whatever a pop-up that can't be avoided, force people to see it

 

[maeribaeri]

Hi, I received a developer reply regarding this suggestion, I'll be posting it here:

Unlikely. It'll be confusing. Easy example: "Interesting chapter, let's read the comments... wait, there are two kinds of comments?"

Wouldn't that have been something to consider before implementing a new type of comment section? Because yeah, button or not, there are two kinds of comments right now, and it is confusing people.

Anyway, any type of one-click option to get to the forum comments from a chapter would really just be highly appreciated.

 

[Kosnope]

If that doesn't work, couldn't they do something like what they did with Xenforo where @MangaDex has a pinned comment at the top that links to the forums?

For example, users are already doing this:

maybe everyone should just spam the forum links in every 'comment' section as a protest to render them unusable and pointless (more than they already are anyway).

Also devs reply is so god damn disingenuous, as if they weren't the ones to implement this shit nobody asked for, that also has confusing UI on top of that.

 

[shinya78]

If that doesn't work, couldn't they do something like what they did with Xenforo where @MangaDex has a pinned comment at the top that links to the forums?
[snip]

For example, users are already doing this:
[snip]

That's what @seekermoc 's suggestion is for. Where it will be located in the final version when already reading comments in the reader is a different matter all on its own.

Hi, I'll be posting here a developer reply regarding this suggestion:

"Valid. We'll be discussing on the wording side of things and see if we can be explicit with the fact that it is indeed the forums."

They made it clear that it's going to be available when already inside the reader. But this is more about quickly getting to [Chapter Discussions] BEFORE getting to the reader. Made funny as they see the suggestion of being able to go directly only to the [Comments] as being valid.

 

[T-sama]

I know I'm repeating myself at this point but I really feel I need to make myself clear on this

First make notifications a pop-up or whatever, the first thing we see on the site when entering it, FORCE people to see the news, updates, whatever you use Notifications tab for or whatever other place you put important notices

You guys need to understand that people are in general lazy, they want what is smple, easy and convenient, they won't go out of their way to find such things because they're here to read mangas and maybe read comments or post themselves

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that."

Part of the reason this backlash was so bad is because it caught a LOT of people by surprise, I honestly believe it wouldn't have been as bad if people were forced to know about the update and then later got a new update explaining the error when it comes to creating thread

Second you guys NEED to change how to access the forum discussion, another big part of the backlash is that vast majority of the users have been on the site for years, they always used the forums and won't change that now, forcing them to go around the new comment section is just angering them and the fact that only supporters can comment or create threads is NOT helping

Having two buttoms or simply reverting the buttom funcion is arguably the ideal solution cause like I said before changing the buttom function this late in the game is the real confusing action and another reason for the backlash

I admit, I can be a real asshole and jerk when criticizing the site since I believe some decisions were really fucking stupid, but for the love of god LISTEN to the people who have been using this site for YEARS, you guys are having plenty of backlash and being heads in the sand management blaming it all on twitter or whatever is not helping your case

Can you guys double down on this and just ignore the backlash? Sure, but all it'll do is make sure some people never support the site again and others just straight-up leave the site, I can only imagine how many are already considering jumping ships cause they think forum was sacked for good due to the error and lack of communication

 

[themangaweeaboo]

Count down for the staff to post something petulant and lock this thread too...

This is exactly how forum communities like these die out. Mods/admins make an unpopular change, the userbase pushes back hard, mods/admins double down, userbase fights back harder, feeding a negative loop that inevitably ends with the admins going straight up secret police and locking everything and stifling all critique, both valid and troll.

I'm grateful for the service they've provided and they can do whatever they want on a platform they own. Imagine going up to someone's house they built and be angry about how the light switches are flipped (I'm not arguing for or against the changes here). But snark and petulance like you described it just immediately kills goodwill built up over years. I was about to make a facetious comment of my own and maybe it'd get some reactions but that's not productive.

I hope people can simmer down and have a rational conversation but I'm not a fan of how this is going.

 

[T-sama]

This is exactly how forum communities like these die out. Mods/admins make an unpopular change, the userbase pushes back hard, mods/admins double down, userbase fights back harder, feeding a negative loop that inevitably ends with the admins going straight up secret police and locking everything and stifling all critique, both valid and troll.

I expect to be one of the first to get their ass kicked if that happened cause I admitedly can be a real ass, I try not to but it's hard to not make myself to be an ass when this change is just plain frustrating :v

Like, example, I can already see some of the series I follow that generally have discussion having no comments at all cause nobody created a thread for it + the fact that how many people are assuming this is a permanent change and now only supporters can post since these chapters have no discussions?

It becomes just plain infuriating with how things got fumbled hard and it's hard to be kind / nice when pushing back against it, mods seemingly dismissing the backlash then makes it even worse

 

[Timewaster_zoltar]

thank god i'm not the only one who thinks the "only supporters can comment" "read older comments" is stupid like outside forums how can a non-supporter comment on anything they read at all?? chances are i might be very dumb and don't know some obvious thing about the comments/forums or something but i'm sure there's a handful of Mangadex users that don't know much/aren't active at all in the forums that will agree with me on this (maybe, i don't wanna blindly assume)

 

[dowiet]

so only supporters can create a new thread to comment on currently? My thoughts are lost into the void until a supporter opens one on a specific chapter of a specific manga i'm reading

 

[shinya78]

I feel like there's an angle to this that we're all, both users and the devs, missing that is not being properly conveyed that's causing this rift of us User's "We want two buttons." vs the Dev's "No, two buttons is confusing."

And so I made another thread to see if that is truly the case.