Akuyaku Reijou no Oyome-sama - Vol. 3 Ch. 15

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You aren't very good at understanding people, are you?
More like I don't try to make something up when reading in between the lines, at least not without some evidence. And when I do look between the lines, there's nothing within the story to actively counter or disprove it. That's the thing with the people saying that she never wanted revenge. Both the story and Karina illustrated that she wanted, and when she had the chance to get it she backed out of it. So any time I see people saying that Karina didn't want revenge, I have to question what story they've been reading.

How she's feeling now gives us insight into her desires and needs before now.
Yeah no... We saw how she was feeling before. The story literally spelled it out. But you want to ignore it for whatever reason in favor of 'Karina didn't know what she want' or 'she wants to make up with her sister but doesn't know it'. If we saw some signs of this early on, then sure. But we didn't.
 
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Both the story and Karina illustrated that she wanted, and when she had the chance to get it she backed out of it.
The story has repeatedly shown otherwise. You're simply unwilling to read it critically and see characters desires and motivations beyond what they say and think.
Yeah no... We saw how she was feeling before. The story literally spelled it out.
We did see how she was feeling before: Deeply hurt. The idea that she wanted revenge came from that hurt, but it was always her guessing at her own desires, not her actually desiring that. Again, this is something the story has communicated many times including in this chapter.
 
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To be fair, most people are not. Might come from experience. Ability to put oneself into the shoes of other. Plus people are not always readable. I wouldn't make more of it than having different opinion. Having to learn other people's point of view is valuable too. Only Author knows the true intentions.
The other side of it, is that clearly there are people here who have been able to parse what the author's been doing with the story. So saying "only the author can know" is, frankly, not quite the truth either.

And yet there are several very loud persistent voices who seem either unable or unwilling to grasp that, and then turn around and call it "poor writing". That starts becoming less of a difference of opinion and more of a seemingly insistent refusal to actually consider that, just maybe, they've had it objectively wrong this whole time.

This isn't saying the author's writing a 10/10 story from an objective, unassailable standpoint. But actually getting details incorrect, building a faulty argument off those errors, then arguing that the author can't write as an extrapolation from there, is imbecilic.
 
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Huh... what im most interested in is seeing how well the Librarian wolf girl is gonna hold up against her. Shes got some fighting experience from protecting her hometown girl but she's probably been a librarian for a bit longer... I think she can do it though

itd moreso be a problem if the sister and librarian wolf girl brought a battallion with them and thats just a recipe for disaster if so. ;p (im not good with names)

Pretty cool tho! ty for the TL!
 
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The other side of it, is that clearly there are people here who have been able to parse what the author's been doing with the story. So saying "only the author can know" is, frankly, not quite the truth either.

And yet there are several very loud persistent voices who seem either unable or unwilling to grasp that, and then turn around and call it "poor writing". That starts becoming less of a difference of opinion and more of a seemingly insistent refusal to actually consider that, just maybe, they've had it objectively wrong this whole time.

This isn't saying the author's writing a 10/10 story from an objective, unassailable standpoint. But actually getting details incorrect, building a faulty argument off those errors, then arguing that the author can't write as an extrapolation from there, is imbecilic.
That is not what I meant by "only the author knows."

Readers can interpret the story, obviously. I already gave my interpretation above, and I think it's actually fairly close to yours: Karina might believe revenge will somehow fix the actual wound underneath, even when she doesn't really understand what the wound is herself.

The interview also supports that Karina hides feelings even from herself, so this interpretation is not coming from nowhere. But it still doesn't tell us exactly what those hidden, or not understood, feeling are. It doesn't directly say that Karina never wanted revenge, or that what she truly wants is to repair her relationship with Aurora. That is still an interpretation.

And that is my point. Someone can see the same hints and still not be convinced that Karina's revenge was only hiding some deeper wish to make up with Aurora. That doesn't automatically means they objectively misread the story.

There is also difference between what the author intended and how clearly it was communicated.

We see young Karina being warm to Aurora and giving her the toy, which was hers. Then Karina is called cold, almost everyone hates her, saying she's hard to deal with, her relationship with Aurora is basically dead, and revenge becomes the thing keeping her going. But something between those states feels missing.

Did years of bullying make her cold? Was she actually cold, cruel, or was she only formal because she was trying to be the proper future queen? Why did everyone around her see her that way? Maybe it will be explained later. Maybe this ambiguity is intentional. But right now, it still feels like a part of the setup is missing.

That doesn't mean the whole story is bad. It might still become clear later. But saying that the storytelling didn't establish something well is not the same as refusing to engage with the story.

And several people agreeing with one interpretation doesn't suddenly make it objective fact. Unless you are secretly Akiko Kanawo, telepathy is not part of critical reading. You have an interpretation, same as the rest of us.
 
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The story has repeatedly shown otherwise. You're simply unwilling to read it critically and see characters desires and motivations beyond what they say and think.
No it hasn't. By that very logic, you can pretty much make up anything about the characters that would explain why they act the way they do regardless if it's explained by the story. Prince is an asshole who's trying to kill Karina out of spite? Nope, he's actually infatuated with her, but due to the pressure of the crown and his callous father, the prince doesn't know how to properly show his affection. Even his sending assassins was actually men who were supposed to safely escort Karina back to the fortress if she left. See how silly that works when you just make things up without actual evidence?

We did see how she was feeling before: Deeply hurt.
Deeply hurt. Deeply angered. Deeply frustrated. She was feeling a myriad of things, so take your pick. And those things have in common of being a cause for wanting retaliation or aka revenge. And no, she wasn't guessing at her desires. Like seriously, how'd you even get that? Her guessing at her desires would literally be her questioning if she really wanted revenge.
 
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Uh oh this is complicated. They both are trying to make sense of the situation but that seems to draw the most extreme conclusion... it's good that the previous chapter we got to see more of the princesses (Aurora and Karina) past and I guess is in Reshtoka's nature to be at this extreme.
I also really wonder what Karina mindset is at this point in the story and also would like more of Reshtoka's past. Why would an unfinished book mean so much for her? And this obsession and love? For Karina is so intense has everyones has mention so far. Does she think she will gain the ultimate happiness as long as they are together? Reshtoka's feel more of a mystery to me as the story goes on.


Thanks for the TL.
I feel like we do see a little bit in this chapter of Reshtoka's feelings. On page 17, it's a bit cut off, but you can see the fragment of Karina's smile as she feeds the puppy version of Reshtoka. I think that's supposed to be the moment she fell for Karina. All through the chapter she's frustrated at not knowing how to make her smile. Her only desire is to make Karina smile like she did from time to time before. But what Reshtoka doesn't know is that those smiles were simply a defense trained into Karina. Go back through volume 1 and you see how in love Reshtoka is after Karina smiles at her, telling her that she's her faithful partner all the while.

Aside from that, this chapter also provides the knowledge that Reshtoka's obsessive love is not unique and is a wolfkin cultural thing. But Reshtoka's been obsessing over a picture book since she was a child, and all of a sudden there's this apparently kind girl with a beautiful smile like she walked off the pages. It's no wonder she's hooked.

I do also appreciate the introspection that Reshtoka provides this chapter. All of volume 1 Karina sees herself as a stand-in, loved not for herself but for her role. Which is why she bites back at being told to smile. To be more "princess-like". But Reshtoka's confusion and anxiety shows that she wants Karina and Karina alone to be happy. It's not about being a princess, it's about being her Karina.

Although it's small, I appreciate that the culture clash introduced in vol 1 hasn't disappeared.
 
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This manga's problem is being too off-trope. Tropes are good because they are [EDIT] efficient shorthand for communicating roles, expectations, conflict, and likely direction [END EDIT], so people know where the story stands. This story doesn't do that.
I think the problem is theres like no off ramp without it being forced.
Only solution is if the author can smooth out how she falls in love with the wolf.

She gave up all she was asked for but everyone hates her and wants her dead.
Shes a nice person so killing them all isnt really something she wants. So revenge is off the table.
Also everyone there is an asshole so theres no she forgives them and they see the error of their ways.
So only option is she takes the highroad and ends off better without them which is totally doable.
She clearly has more power and loyal subjects now but the problem is she genuinely does not like them.
Like they can do whatever she wants and she still is racist.

So story needs to start addressing this instead of the weird book allegory of how the wolf gives the princess everything she wants but shes still unhappy(racist)
Also address that her love interest is basically coercing her into marrying her she doesnt have a choice
 
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By the goddess everyone is getting WAY too caught up in the debate and not actually just letting the author cook. How many times has this happened now? People complained about Aurora and judging her, then the story explained her side and you still complained about the explanation. Then Karina had her revenge and you all thought it was lame and you complained about that. Then you complained that Eve’s entire theory that it was following the book was wrong because Reshtoka was nice and not beastly and wasn’t going to kill Karina. So THIS chapter explained that there was no revenge Karina could have sought that would have soothed her heart and Reshtoka is going to kill Aurora, which will continue to fulfil the plot of the fairy tale, and what happens? YOU CONTINUE TO COMPLAIN.

What’s the alternative? Aurora was evil, Karina kills everyone, everyone is miserable, and the plot is so rote that a fifth grader could have done it?

If you’ve been paying attention, and just let the author cook, then it all gets explained as the story continues and it all makes sense. If it doesn’t make sense to you, I don’t think anything we or the author will explain will solve that for you.
 
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By the goddess everyone is getting WAY too caught up in the debate and not actually just letting the author cook.
I mean, nothing that is said here will have any effect on the mangaka's ability to deliver the story. Also, I'm enjoying reading some of these. Discussions are par for the course with stories like these.
 
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That is not what I meant by "only the author knows."

Readers can interpret the story, obviously. I already gave my interpretation above, and I think it's actually fairly close to yours: Karina might believe revenge will somehow fix the actual wound underneath, even when she doesn't really understand what the wound is herself.

The interview also supports that Karina hides feelings even from herself, so this interpretation is not coming from nowhere. But it still doesn't tell us exactly what those hidden, or not understood, feeling are. It doesn't directly say that Karina never wanted revenge, or that what she truly wants is to repair her relationship with Aurora. That is still an interpretation.

And that is my point. Someone can see the same hints and still not be convinced that Karina's revenge was only hiding some deeper wish to make up with Aurora. That doesn't automatically means they objectively misread the story.

There is also difference between what the author intended and how clearly it was communicated.

We see young Karina being warm to Aurora and giving her the toy, which was hers. Then Karina is called cold, almost everyone hates her, saying she's hard to deal with, her relationship with Aurora is basically dead, and revenge becomes the thing keeping her going. But something between those states feels missing.

Did years of bullying make her cold? Was she actually cold, cruel, or was she only formal because she was trying to be the proper future queen? Why did everyone around her see her that way? Maybe it will be explained later. Maybe this ambiguity is intentional. But right now, it still feels like a part of the setup is missing.

That doesn't mean the whole story is bad. It might still become clear later. But saying that the storytelling didn't establish something well is not the same as refusing to engage with the story.

And several people agreeing with one interpretation doesn't suddenly make it objective fact. Unless you are secretly Akiko Kanawo, telepathy is not part of critical reading. You have an interpretation, same as the rest of us.

I think you're conflating a bit of what DeathPigeon has been saying, but I'll engage anyway.

We have been shown that the reason Karina became hated by "everyone" was due to Orlando never wanting her in the first place, insulting and demeaning her over every tiny mistake she made during her Queen's Training, and starting a rumor mill around the palace & capital that swept up the nobility and turning them all against Karina.

Karina was kind to Aurora as a child because that's who Karina is. It's why her mother pleaded with Eve to "find the truth" about the 'Villainess' that the Crown wanted erased from its histories--because she couldn't believe that everything being said about Karina was the truth, because the rumors were completely unlike her daughter.

And she's not wrong. Karina was separated from her family and any form of support base, isolated in the palace once she became the princess concert to Orlando, and was on her own while she strove to learn what she needed to become Queen. And that was from the time she wasn't yet a teenager. No allies, a prince who hated her and manipulated those around her into bullying and lying to and about her.

It's pretty clear, I'd argue, that this environment is what broke Karina and made her see everyone as an enemy. She held onto the idea that she had allies, but found out she apparently didn't--the only ones who could be called such, were physically separated from her.

And once Aurora herself was older and able to actually become Orlando's fiancé, she wanted to try and make amends for what she saw as her part in causing Karina's life to go to shit. But she has never been able to talk about her thoughts and feelings, having been insulated and coddled from early childhood because of her illness.
So, she becomes Orlando's fiancé because that liberates Karina. Only she doesn't communicate that, and Karina misinterprets it as Aurora trying to take something away, once again. Due to the abuse and the history of Aurora getting special treatment, Karina finds herself in this mindset that even her family is against her, when it's not entirely the case.

But she won't let anyone near her by that point, because she doesn't want to be hurt any more than she has. So no one can tell her, even if they felt they could actually articulate the reality.

Like I said - we've gotten a pretty clear idea as to a lot of what's going on.

and at the foundation of it all - the story isn't being spoonfed to readers, because the actual weight of the conflict rests on it being presented as multiple perspectives from the various characters, with the discrepancies between their recountings and viewpoints revealing the "truth" that lies in the middle.

When readers don't understand that and instead say that the story makes no sense because characters are lying or acting differently than they should be, it comes across as those readers either completely missing what the author is going for, or--after that fact being explained--simply rejecting it, and deciding that it's a bad story or poor writing.

And at that point, it gets tiresome seeing those same people show up chapter after chapter to a story they clearly hate, whinging and badmouthing what they either can't or refuse to understand and making it harder for those who are enjoying the story to try and engage with and discuss with one another about it.
 
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I mean, nothing that is said here will have any effect on the mangaka's ability to deliver the story. Also, I'm enjoying reading some of these. Discussions are par for the course with stories like these.

"discussion" doing a lot of heavy lifting when it stops being about the story and starts being fights about whether or not the author can actually write a story.

Things haven't really been about the contents of the chapter for at least a volume, now, in these forums. It's just people complaining that they don't understand what's happening, while arguing with those who explain and then resort to calling it bad writing.

That's not constructive, at least, and I'd argue risks pushing people away from wanting to engage when they otherwise might.
 
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"discussion" doing a lot of heavy lifting when it stops being about the story and starts being fights about whether or not the author can actually write a story.
I mean, who's actually arguing whether the author can write the story? Seems like a crude assessment over people not agreeing with you, if you ask me. At most, I'm seeing people discussing the characters' motivation (like a lot), as well as the portrayal of certain events. But I'm not seeing anyone really arguing about whether the author can write.

As someone else had already said, everyone absorb information differently; this is especially the case when the events are intentionally made vague and/or conflicting. For example, we're told that Karina was always a nice girl, but this contradicts the first chapter which shows that while Karina was the crown prince fiancé, she had indulged upon the lavish lifestyle that was expected of her. She received wealth, status, and power; and she wielded without restraint, from stepping on people's heads while they grovel before her, to soaking up praise. She had enjoyed this life until she was banished by the prince.

It's only in the second half of the story that we learned that Karina didn't actually want to be the prince's fiancé, and that she suffered humiliation and disdain. However, both accounts came from Karina herself, and there's no clear distinction on what's true and what's not. This isn't to say that Karina isn't nice, but more about how much of her story is true and how much it isn't. We have several conflicting accounts about her as well.

We have those who knew her from the parties and claimed that she was a cruel and irrational woman. Then we have her parents and Aurora who claim that she was a good girl. The issue is that at this point, I'd say that no one knew the true Karina. Everyone only saw what was on the surface, an idea that Karina herself had shown to loathe frequently.

In fact, even the author's interview supports the idea that there is more beneath the surface of things. So no one knows whether Karina truly wants revenge or if she wants to make up with her sister. For all we know, Karina could literally want all of those things. Like Tammylikesart had said, this is all simply our interpretations, and anyone acting like that theirs is the only one that's right (which both sides have done that I've seen) either shouldn't be discussing things in the first place and/or going around throwing insults or assumptions about others just because they disagree.

In other words; these are discussions through and through. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't change the fact that they're mostly pertaining to the events of the story. I'd just take it as the author doing a good job at stirring up discussions and I'll leave it at that as I don't care to speak more on this. Rather I'm looking forward to the next chapter.
 
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Increasingly convinced some of you are just not reading the story and coming here to whine about whatever fabrication you've concocted in your heads.

lol, aren't you the person who argued that a story was going to be poly and i told you to read it properly?
i think you were wrong on some occasions, if i remember correctly.
incase i'm mistaking you for somebody else, sorry.

but for the topic at hand:
this manga had alot of time to prepare for the big revenge, the big revenge turned out to be absolutely nothing.
she didn't hurt anybody, she didn't take anything from anybody, the only thing that happened was the wedding getting postponed.
that's it.
she returns all depressed and sad and empty and angry, and stops communicating with her puppy girl.
while all of this is happening, we are being told that her sister is actually alright and actually cares.
right.

because there is zero communication, the puppy girl is going to kill the sister.
it's beyond terrible.
if a manga forces the lack of communication as the plot development, then it's just not worth reading.
 
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lol, aren't you the person who argued that a story was going to be poly and i told you to read it properly?
i think you were wrong on some occasions, if i remember correctly.
incase i'm mistaking you for somebody else, sorry.

but for the topic at hand:
this manga had alot of time to prepare for the big revenge, the big revenge turned out to be absolutely nothing.
she didn't hurt anybody, she didn't take anything from anybody, the only thing that happened was the wedding getting postponed.
that's it.
she returns all depressed and sad and empty and angry, and stops communicating with her puppy girl.
while all of this is happening, we are being told that her sister is actually alright and actually cares.
right.

because there is zero communication, the puppy girl is going to kill the sister.
it's beyond terrible.
if a manga forces the lack of communication as the plot development, then it's just not worth reading.

I am not the person you seem to be remembering, no.

It's not a lack of communication, because we've been shown why they weren't communicating when it would have still mattered--because they were forcibly separated and Karina was isolated in the palace.

The way Karina's revenge played out has been explained, along with its significance, already. As has the reasoming behind her despondency now.

Everything you're saying just reinforces that you don't understand the story. The fact others can parse what's said and what's "between the lines" and what hasn't yet been explained, absolutely means it's all there, and not the fault of the author or the story that you don't see it.
 
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I am not the person you seem to be remembering, no.

It's not a lack of communication, because we've been shown why they weren't communicating when it would have still mattered--because they were forcibly separated and Karina was isolated in the palace.

The way Karina's revenge played out has been explained, along with its significance, already. As has the reasoming behind her despondency now.

Everything you're saying just reinforces that you don't understand the story. The fact others can parse what's said and what's "between the lines" and what hasn't yet been explained, absolutely means it's all there, and not the fault of the author or the story that you don't see it.

listen, i'm not a genius, nor am i completely devoid of the ability to think or read between lines.
your condescending and self-assured way of speaking is not appropriate, neither is your self-proclaimed truth the actual truth, it's just what you think is right.
i've seen alot of people point out miscommunication and/or the lack of communication, and yet you are here telling me i'm the only one with that opinion.
you are objectively wrong.
nothing has been explained in the manga, all the characters keep telling us that karina had her revenge.
the revenge itself being completely and utterly lacking, is the same conclusion our girl Reshutoka came to, and why would she come to that conclusion if not for the lack of Karina speaking to her?
her only indicators are what has transpired already, that's what she goes on, just like us.
the only detail we know, on top of what Reshutoka knows, is what Aurora told the other beastgirl.
for what we know, Aurora could have been lying about it.
so again, what kind of omnipotent eyes do you have, that you see the entire truth that nobody else is seeing?

you are rubbing me the wrong way.
 
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listen, i'm not a genius, nor am i completely devoid of the ability to think or read between lines.
your condescending and self-assured way of speaking is not appropriate, neither is your self-proclaimed truth the actual truth, it's just what you think is right.
i've seen alot of people point out miscommunication and/or the lack of communication, and yet you are here telling me i'm the only one with that opinion.
you are objectively wrong.
Pretty much. They go out of their way of saying fabrications when they've been doing that even worse. Like cool, they don't like that people have different opinions than them, but if they're gonna whine about it and play victim over it, they're even worse than the people they whine about.
 

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