FFF-Class Trashero

[carero12]

@home7 I already said, what I wanted. Your statement doesn't change much, but I'm bored so I will play your game for a while.
If people in this world are as bad as you say, then doesn't that make Demon King actually good? Shouldn't main character have sided with him?
Even if she led to war on which many died, does that automatically make her bad? If she she felt remorse, then I don't think so. Unlike the hero she cared about her allies.
So main character after getting into another world simply accepted that life has no value, just as gods told him, and this gives him the right to kill other people. But also, he thinks other people are bad cause they kill. Isn't this kinda ironical? Or is it maybe cause he thinks his life has more value than the others?
You ask "why should an outsider with no vested interest in that world show any consideration for it". You don't need a reason for it, that should be natural for every person in the world, but I guess not for you.
Main character isn't a FFF trash hero without a reason. His world view, ha? He accepted what gods served him on a plate, easily got controlled by it and that's why he failed. Don't imitate him, or you will fail too.

 

[home7]

@carero12 Bud in terms of the happenings of the story here you're arguing from a place of ignorance, so I'm gonna lay out the basic plot from chapter one.

Spoiler

The MC was kidnapped to a far away place against his will and does not wish to co-operate with the people that both mistreated and forced him into his current predicament. This is a common trope now, look at shield hero for one of many examples. The main character is tasked with killing (see murdering) a sentient entity. In order to do so he is required to kill other living beings en mass ranging form the sentient to the not in order to succeed in his task because the leveling system incentivizes killing. Most important is he must complete this task if he wishes to return home to an average mundane lifestyle. Murder, murder, murder then you can go home.
So he does and that for 10 years, it becomes normal for him to kill but he cannot shake the feelings that something is out of place. He doesn't know why he was summoned, or why if feels like the demon lord is cultivating his strength and a breadth of other things that don't make sense. To top off the forced murder job in a nonsensical and corrupt world, save for one (probably best girl), he is forced to travel with companions that abuse him physically right up until the very end just before fighting the demon king. Now he is completely dehumanized to to bloodshed, so he kills his "companions" and then the demon lord, fully expecting to go home to a mundane life.
But wait it's time for the cherry on top. Someone has been judging his actions and they claim to be a god. This entity, associated with his kidnappers that brought him to this world, passes judgement on the MC telling him that he does not meet their standards. The "god" tells him that he has to do it all over again. Following this judgement and proclamation the MC is sent back to the beginning point ten years prior undoing all his hard work and struggles but MOST IMPORTANT is undoing all of the deaths in the world since his summoning, invalidating every death every struggle and achievement up to that point.

And the best part is

Spoiler

this isn't even the first time the "gods" have done this. and they have in fact run this exact scenario involving the exact same people over a hundred and ninety four times.

And then here comes a guy trying to apply a black and white morality system to the entire thing saying things like "If people in this world are as bad as you say, then doesn't that make Demon King actually good?" and "Even if she led to war on which many died, does that automatically make her bad? If she she felt remorse, then I don't think so. Unlike the hero she cared about her allies." as if to scream out to the heavens his utter lack of grasp on the situation. And then makes insinuations about how others have questionable morals when he can't even grasp basic grey morality much less the cosmic farce that is playing out in this story.

So to address some of your points.

Spoiler

It's presently not possible to tell if the Demon King carries some sort of binary black white morality. If he was "evil" he would likely be nothing more than a final artificial obstacle on the MCs path to complete his mission in this divine comedy, like the tape at a finish line. Speaking of which I should clarify two points on the state of the world the MC finds himself within. If the entire world is artificially constructed purely for the hero game then their lives really are lacking in value to the point of being NPCs in a video game. If that is not the case then the "gods" of the place have done something conceivably worse than all the Earths genocides and war crimes combined a thousand times over.
As far as that remorse comment, I hate to say it this way but I'm pretty sure you're still a bad person if you kill a million people and just feel remorse about it. you don't stop being a bad person just cuz you feel bad about it.
Bud your personal feelings that have been drilled into you from whatever public institution you went to since childhood are not a solid argument for altruism. And advocating altruism to help your kidnappers only says Stockholm syndrome.
And finally his world view is he has been kidnapped and want's to go home. If you don't have the basic level empathy to recognize the basic want's, needs and desires of others man, you need to get a whole lot better at arguing to convince people that you're right.

 

[carero12]

@home7 It's not ignorance. It's a doubt.
I've read only 14 chapters before, and just now I've read up till 24th chapter just so I could confirm few things you said. But I deeply regret that I did that.
I see you worship main character as if he was a Jesus. You accept every single thing about him as right, and positive. If he thinks "gods are bad" then they are bad, and there is no way that they aren't. You wont give a second thought about right or not right. You are like this maniac cult member. The way you summarized story is like calling apple - a banana.
About hero:

Spoiler

The MC got summoned to be a hero in isekai world he always dreamt of, but he didn't get the amazing treatment he expected and started thinking "it was so good watching anime and playing games back then" so he set it as his goal and put EXP above everything else. He become a person that wouldn't help anyone without a proper reward and didn't care about any of his companions. A complete opposite to a hero. He also started hating everyone. All you had to do is breath for a hero to start hating you. This delusional rampage last for 10 years, which he remembers now as hell. The only people he thought are good, are these from who he gained something (e.g power).

About what you said:

Spoiler

People lifes have no value in this world? We see story from heros point of view, so it sure looks like this, but that's not the truth this story tells us.
Its quite funny how you bring shield hero to all this. He was in similar situation, but not quite. You see, even though he was deceived, and his hate and wanting for revenge were like no one else, he still managed to control this feelings. At the execution he saved the ones he hated. Unlike someone here.. You should go ahead and watch this scene, for reals.
So you blame gods for making a system where killing others is easiest way to level up. For me it makes sense. It's quite alike to real world, where you can just steal belongings of dead person, but in this case you can even gain EXP. Gods aren't humans friends or enemies. They are only there to judge. I hope I don't have to tell you yet another time that the person that kills others is bad, do I?
The "abuse by companions" you mention is what MC calls "unfair treatment", and it shows in rough training, doing chores and helping his companions. That seems perfectly normal for me. Most of isekai protagonists experience this, but only our hero is such a cry-baby to delude all of this as a torture. He can't even tell why a girl is mad at him cause he saw her naked and then she tried to kill him..
"Dehumanized"? "Bloodshed"? There was no such thing.
At the beginning of chapter 14, our hero describes this general guy as a great swordsman, who deeply cares about his allies, but on picture what is shown is a wrathful warrior. It's weird, cause it doesn't fit what he says at all. Looking at him makes us feel like its a bad guy. And there are many more cases in which what hero says do not match pictures. That's a interesting trick from author, and you have fallen for it.
So which is MOST IMPORTANT? The undoing of all the deaths or hero losing all his strength? It looks like you are mad cause his stats got a reset and he has to do this all over again, but you are forgetting about the fact that he wouldn't have to do this if he didn't kill his companions. He deserves what he got. And also gods undoing all of the deaths gives a hero chance to save a lot of people. Unfortunately, when hero meets a dying person he decides to finish them off, instead of helping.
But he was like that even on first try. Its shown when he wants to kill young dragon for EXP, and his companions stop him cause in this story "dragons are gentle". And he has problems to them for that.

Wait, does the amount of times gods re-did the "isekai world" even mean anything? It only shows that there are many more stupid people like hero out there..
Please stop with your what-if stories about gods. I understand you really want to blame all of it on them, but there are limits.

I only questioned what you said with Demon King and elf princess, since you were so sure about what you said. That wasn't really my morality. I feel like you have really hard time telling who is good and bad in this story. You go as far as saying people are worse than Demon King, which is something a emo teenager would say. The way you try really hard to defend and justify hero actions is really questionable. I guess you self-inserted yourself a little too hard into story.
There is big difference between killing innocent people, finishing off lying, and attacking live beings that cause no one a harm, and fighting with a real reason, like protecting your allies. Btw guess who never considered anyone as ally..

Idk where you took that Stockholm Syndrome and altruism from. The hero is only one here that considers these people as kidnappers. You entirely absorbed his point of view and spit everything he would.
I don't think you have the right to talk about empathy and "want's, needs and desires of others ". You put main character above anyone else in this story. That disqualifies you from doing so.

Yeah, im bad at convincing and arguing with people. That's kinda true.

 

[home7]

@carero12 You've mixed up events from the first and second round and outright misrepresented other parts of the story. If you can't even keep the facts straight why are we even discussing this? Is English your second language or something, are you reading one of the non English versions?

 

[carero12]

@home7 So everything I wrote you sum up to mixing, misrepresentation, and not keeping facts straight? That's funny, cause I think everything I've wrote is perfectly fine. I even bothered to check things if they are right. I guess people will always find the way to omit the truth, and continue their false believe, in your case in a sweet innocent hero.

PS. And you even went after my english. You know thats the lowest of lowest moves you can do when discussing something with another person online?

 

[Danimal696]

Guys, you are thinking too much about this, he is a trash person thrown into a trash world. He couldnt remember his friends names even before being isekai´d, his biggest longing are flushing toilets, his most respected person a slime, his hobby is "getting XP", he gets "action" with girls whenever he can

Spoiler

(its been cut from adaption, by this point he has done the half-elf and the human queen, and watched the elf in the orc camp getting lots of... love, same as he caugth the elf queen and Pedonar not kissing innocently, its a recurrent gig with elf women). This world is intended to raise idiotic and hedonistic heroes, and hes neither of those

From my point of view everything is real trash in that world, hero included, and hes too smart and turned too psicophatic to comply to some unknown morals being enforced upon him. And im loving it all the way 😈

 

[home7]

@Danimal696 Yeah I was definitely overthinking things. I wrote 8 paragraphs sunday morning after work and there were easily gonna be 20 more so decided I needed to stop for a bit and take a break. Also spot on take.

@carero12 I asked if you spoke english because you make shit up, make baseless statements about character and you write like garbage. You claim things happened in the story that never happened which you couldn't cite if you tried. You waste time writing your projections about me as much as you do the MC stating things like I worship him as if he were JC. Most important is you're terrible writing I would have to pour through to find your disjointed arguments scattered all over your posts some times multiple times and never with supporting arguments citing things that did happen, I don't want to have to write 30 paragraphs of counterpoints about why whatever you say is built on fiction when you can't even follow the story.
So why would anyone want to read your incognizant garbage.

 

[carero12]

@home7 Actually you did, even few times, and you answered to it and wrote a lot. I just felt compelled to answer in the same amount of shit.
You are actually a idiot. As I said, you pick on someones english skills just cause you cant find better thing to pick on. There is nothing made up, baseless and garbage. At least cite to what you address it to cause left alone it sounds like the mumbling of a kid who can't find any better argument.
I didn't cite things that happened? If you refer to my last message, then it's written loud and clear "About what you said" and I go line by line about things you wrote, it's quite funny how half of my supporting arguments are actually in your message. You just poured your good hero shit on it and tried to make it look like it's not what it is.
From what I see, its you who can't follow on facts. It's called "FFF-Class Trashero" not "SSS-Class Goodhero". It's just as @Danimal696 says. Main character is trash, and that's my whole point.
You wouldn't be able to find 5 counterpoints to what I said, so stop dreaming about 30.

 

[home7]

I like how you said 5.

Spoiler

@carero12 "I did cite things that happened"
also @carero12 "At the beginning of chapter 14, our hero describes this general guy as a great swordsman, who deeply cares about his allies"
Meanwhile chapter 14 doesn't use any variation of the word care unless you actually thing protect means care, it doesn't.
The actual words used. "The Swordking Alex is a born tanker. Contrary to most people's thoughts, people who posses outstanding swordsmanship don't always become great swordsmen. A swordsmen that is actually wanted in a war is someone who PROTECTS his allies while being able to slay the enemies for a long time. Someone who wouldn't be isolated in the midst even if left behind and is able to come back smoothly as a person who possesses great swordsmanship and endurance. The reason why Alex will be called the 'Sword King' in the future, is because not only was he able to protect his allies like an iron wall but he was also able to carry out solo missions."
The assertion that he "deeply cares about his allies" is pure supposition.

"So why would anyone want to read your incognizant garbage."
@carero12 "Actually you did, even few times, and you answered to it and wrote a lot."
You've confused wanting to do something with actually doing it showing your poor reading comprehension and a poor mastery of the language which supports my earlier statements. If what goes into your brain does not match what is written then is the same problem the reason you think you have a proper understanding of events?

"The MC got summoned to be a hero in isekai world he always dreamt of" never happened in this comic, his schoolmates in chapter 2 may have been gushing about getting an isekai trip but he wasn't.

"Btw guess who never considered anyone as ally."
Slime Master
Elf Prince (loosely)
Batender

"And also gods undoing all of the deaths gives a hero chance to save a lot of people."
Who was sisyphus for 1000.

God I love arguing fresh, this only took me a few minutes.

 

[twdtenioia]

this manhwa is so bad wtf
but now i'm hating myself for liking it


10/10

 

[carero12]

@home7 I like how you said 30 and did 5.

Spoiler

What do you expect from 40+ old guy? Head pats? They are on fucking battlefield not nursery. Its said that he protected their lives, if he didn't care about them he wouldn't do this.
Its funny how you cut my statement in half and didn't bother mentioning later part which is much more important than first one.

"So why would anyone want to read your incognizant garbage."
"Actually you did, even few times, and you answered to it and wrote a lot."
You think I didn't understand what you said? It was just a cheap way of trying to offend my writing, but you know what, I couldn't care less about that. We shouldn't be talking about my English, nor any stupid shit you are lately trying to put into our conversation. "poor reading comprehension and a poor mastery of the language" Oof, miss me with that shit. Try finding valid argument ABOUT STORY next time.

There is suspiciously nowhere said that hero DIDN'T want to come to this world on first run. If it was, the entire vision that author tried to build up would be destroyed. As I mentioned earlier, the story is told from POV of MC, so anything that'd lead to him being guilty in any way is omitted.
If he was normal back then, then any normal person would be enjoying themselves if they came to fantasy world, and anyone else at his place would do so.

You just confirmed what I said.
"The only people he thought are good, are these from who he gained something (e.g power)."

That sounds like him showing off his strength, or doing "big" things like slaying a dragon or saving many people in one go to gain fame. He wouldn't save anyone if there was no gain from it.
Also my point was, that instead of making "save a lot of people" his objective after going on his 2nd try, he didn't even thought about it. Read "Tsuyokute New Saga" if you don't know how a hero should act in such situation.

Here is your summary of the story, I will tell you whats wrong with it. Everything mine will be in (..).

Spoiler

The MC was kidnapped (He was not kidnapped. MC only uses this word to justify everything else that happens in the story.) to a far away place against his will (It was not.) and does not wish to co-operate with the people (You mix 1st try with 2nd. There is not shown, that he didn't want to co-operate with them on 1st try.) that both mistreated and forced him into his current predicament (He came there expecting being treated as a God and didn't get it so he is simply mad.) This is a common trope now, look at shield hero for one of many examples. The main character is tasked with killing (see murdering) a sentient entity. In order to do so he is required to kill other living beings en mass (That's called grinding.) ranging form the sentient to the not in order to succeed in his task because the leveling system incentivizes killing (You make it sound like that's not how its supposed to be, but let me be clear, thats how it is in every single fucking isekai.). Most important is he must complete this task if he wishes to return home to an average mundane lifestyle. Murder, murder, murder (He wasn't killing innocent people, but bad monsters.) Also do so then you can go home.
So he does and that for 10 years(If he really didn't want to do it, I'm sure he would find many chances to run away, but he didn't. He started to like killing and getting EXP.) it becomes normal for him to kill but he cannot shake the feelings that something is out of place. He doesn't know why he was summoned(To be a hero?), or why if feels like the demon lord is cultivating his strength and a breadth of other things that don't make sense(There are no other things.). To top off the forced murder job(From what I remember his lovely teacher in a assassin.. That makes you think.) in a nonsensical and corrupt world (Sounds like teenager that was just dumped by his first girlfriend.) save for one (probably best girl)(Our hero laughs when she dies tho ), he is forced to travel with companions that abuse him physically (Doing chores, fighting tsundere, getting trained to defeat demon king.. Is this a abuse? NO.) right up until the very end just before fighting the demon king. Now he is completely dehumanized to to bloodshed (That sounds like a bad joke.), so he kills his "companions" and then the demon lord, fully expecting to go home to a mundane life. (This is most important part of entire story. There was everything fine with his teammates, they were "sane", just like gods said. But why does it have to be a word "sane", not "good, nor "nice".. It sounds like someone isn't sane.. And it just happens to be our hero. He has mental issue.From what I can guess, its called enemy complex. Mental disorder in which a person falsely believes he or she is surrounded by enemies. The story lies to us multiple times, to make killing of allies by him justified, but its not. Sometimes short parts of truth slip through, and then we can see the case wasn't as a bad as hero tells us.)
But wait it's time for the cherry on top. Someone has been judging his actions and they claim to be a god. (Gods are judges.) This entity, associated with his kidnappers (How the hell are these gods associated with them.. just cause they rule over this isekai world?) that brought him to this world, passes judgement on the MC telling him that he does not meet their standards. (Of course he doesn't. The entire story was supposed to be "hero with allies after various adventures beat demon king" not "hero massacres his allies"!) The "god" tells him that he has to do it all over again. Following this judgement and proclamation the MC is sent back to the beginning point ten years prior undoing all his hard work and struggles(Oof, he lost EXP..) but MOST IMPORTANT is undoing all of the deaths in the world since his summoning(Oh no, his allies are now alive, guess what.. he is gonna try to kill them again!), invalidating every death every struggle and achievement(Kek.) up to that point.

Spoiler

Why don't you try to tell my why MC isn't a trash? Im sure you will find a proper argument for him killing innocent people, showing his inhuman behavior (entire 2nd try, but even on first try like when Lanuvel died or him wanting to kill not hostile dragon), having unreasonable enemy complex (he vs gods), treating everyone as shit, even his allies and eventually killing them. I actually started this discussion without reading the rest of the story, and thought there was a slight chance I was wrong and there was a reason for everything. But now it's clear that there is none, I don't know why should we continue this fiesta. You will continue to pick up this small holes you can find in my statements avoiding the most important parts, then try to justify hero and finish it with some bullshit about me. It's boring. If you really enjoy this story, then feel free to do so. I just wanted you to think about why it's called the way it is.

 

[home7]

Well I just closed the tab by accident and lost my reply to @carero12's entire post down to every single point and with it my will to live. Time to go shopping for groceries.

 

[carero12]

@home7 Good. I win.

 

[home7]

@carero12 Nah I was taking a break, second draft is always better anyway. And I think I need to reiterate my core points since we've definitely gotten off track.
My core point being the MC's actions while questionable both morally and ethically are rational. So I'm going to try to focus on point's that support my core point and give minimal effort to the things you write that have no weight on this.

Spoiler

What we expect from Alex is irrelevant but thanks for padding your ballooning posts.
Your assertion that people protect others must care about Care about them Deeply is baseless. People protect others all the time despite not caring about them, caring is not required for protecting. "Deeply caring" follows a definition of caring requiring a person to care about the individuals themselves. Protecting fellow soldiers in the pursuit of fame, glory, duty or other personal reasons does not require caring about those you protect. One example of protecting another person you don't care about would be high profile prisoner escort. Another example would be protecting someone you yourself do not care about but someone while someone you value or are beholden to cares about them. Why are you making me explain something so basic, this should not require explanation.
I cut that part of your statement in half because it was half conjecture and half made up, but if you feel like it quote every sentence in it and tell me each of them is not conjecture and cite where it takes place in the story so we can argue it further.

"There is suspiciously nowhere said that hero DIDN'T want to come to this world on first run." Do I need to explain proving a negative? Do I need to explain innocent until proven guilty? He isn't gushing like his classmates in Chapter 2 either. This is paper thin and if want to pursue it further cite any page in any chapter where it explicitly states wanted to come to this world on his first run, and I'll cite where he tried every day without exception to get back home. I wanted to say the rest of your paragraph is conjecture but I also want to point out that last line. "If he was normal back then, then any normal person would be enjoying themselves if they came to fantasy world, and anyone else at his place would do so."
To quote Max Payne, "Funny as Hell, it was the most horrible thing I could think of. "

I could point out how it's normal to value people that are valuable to you, or I could point out how he never saw the elf prince as good only a preferable ruler to the warmonger princess that hates humans. Take you're pick your post is either wrong or it doesn't matter.
I don't know how you got "showing off his strength" from a Sisyphus and Jepordy reference. Are you not familiar with Sisyphus? Should I avoid referencing Greek mythology in my future posts?
Suggesting that someone read a books worth of literature to support your arguments is the most braindead approach to arguing there is. Put in more effort, even if your assessment of the execution was wrong you still put in more effort there.
You know what' you're right, he made no effort to "save people" aside from killing the demon king as fast as possible which if not for the dragon rampage would have saved the most people. but that doesn't even matter for my core point so you can have that. Defeating the Demon King so fast he set the record, ending the cult sacrificing humans to a demon, executing all the corrupt nobles that through their great created poverty and starvation, preventing a civil war that would have killed thousands and preventing the humans from attacking the elves in retribution for the king attacking the hero, he did those, but he didn't "save people."

Spoiler

Geeze if you say "He was not kidnapped" then I guess it must be so, he wasn't seized or detained or carried away by unlawful force, he wasn't taken away illegally by force. He was clearly a willful volunteer. It was totally by his will that be abducted from his classroom without warning and told to go kill the demon king without support from from his abductors, there was no ransom where a payment (kill the demon king) was needed for him to return home. There's a reason why so many of the nobility in isekai beg the hero for help after summoning them, even if they don't mean it.

I'm just gonna cop and admit I used the wrong word when I said co-operate.

Saying he expected to be treated like a god is baseless, saying that he was just mad for not being treated like a god is fiction. Cite it or drop it.

Hey billy I know you're only 10 and this is your first hunting trip but I want you to go out into the woods alone with only a knife and kill 15 deer and then bring back their hearts and I'll give you a nickle. Don't worry, "it's just grinding." I'm not going to bother attributing a personality trait to whatever would make you think so little of killing any living thing. Only thing I ever killed when I was around 10 was a mouse and I felt really bad about it after.

"let me be clear, thats how it is in every single fucking isekai" except for Cheat Kushushi no Slow Life, Isekai Yakkyoko, a bunch of others currently being made and a bunch of old ones like El Hazard. The video game style isekai is a more recent fad and does not wholly dominate the genre. Even if it did, many of the isekai stories currently airing have other ways to raise your level besides killing as opposed to exclusively. This only touches on how the world he was forced into incentivizes violent behavior or else I wouldn't bother with it.

Define innocent people? Are the people he did kill like the murderer bad monsters as well? have you really considered the implications of your statement or just shooting off? Was the prince who sought peace and equality in the first round a bad monster as well? Was it ok to kill a man who wished for fair an end of bigotry towards non elves and a new age of peace between humans and elves a bad monster?

"I'm sure he would find many chances to run away" and die of old age in a world far removed from his family, with no flush toilets. Don't make me explain how the hero wants to go home and how running away is not an option. Stop making stupid statements like this.

"To be a hero?" To be a child soldier?

"From what I remember his lovely teacher in a assassin.. That makes you think." Nice application of guilt by association.

"Our hero laughs when she dies tho" Yes and you know why he does and how he regrets it later, not for good reasons, thanks for the half truth. But that's really irrelevant to my points.

"Doing chores, fighting tsundere, getting trained to defeat demon king.. Is this a abuse? NO." The entire parties chores, tsundere is baseless and getting punched in the face is not training so yeah, abuse you masochist.

"bad joke" It was, but the core message was there, he was dehumanized by his experiences.

"There was everything fine with his teammates" at this point is proven false. The elf princess was known to be violent, impulsive, the only elf to hunt animals and eat meat, which angered the elf spirit elementals or whatever they're called. There is no evidence for or against the other party members at this point. The rest of your point is conjecture and a waste of time.

"Gods are judges." The Sky is Blue. This is off point but I like how you talk about this being from the MC's perspective and therefor questionable but you're adamant that this part is true.

The gods are associated with "the summoners" in so much that they facilitate the entire process and are powerful enough to have reset the exact same world down to bun king, Lanuvel, the elf royalty's infighting over 194 times.

No kidding the gods wanted a scenario to play out and didn't get the result they liked. Water is wet.

"Oof, he lost EXP" Are you trying to assert that this world matters or that it doesn't, make up your mind, be consistent.

Spoiler

Never said MC wasn't trash, never said he was good, Only said he was reasonable and sane.
Bud if you can't grasp butterfly effect shit for saving people and how that dragon fight was a happy little accident that's you. I've already pointed out how aside from the dragon everything he did in the second round was intended to save the most lives earlier in this post, and if not for the dragon fight it would have worked.
Laughing about someone you don't like is something a LOT of people do, it's not good but it is human. Considering the reputation dragons have killing it wouldn't be inhuman either, it's a neutral decision that people could go for or against depending on their reasoning.

Man versus god, I love it, thanks for pointing that out.

You're bullshitting and spitting hyperbole at this point and attempting to bow out while not learning anything besides how to argue a bit better. Good job laying off projecting your views onto me, good arguments are only muddied by that stuff, even if it feels good.

There is a point to the story, it's the Characters Journey. Maybe tack on "as he deals with unreasonable circumstance in a shitty way."
If you want to bow out you can but I'm prepared to point out every flawed argument you make.

 

[carero12]

@home7 "My core point being the MC's actions while questionable both morally and ethically are rational." Actions are only rational when there is cause and effect. That applies to hero, only if he isn't lying to us. This story is from his point of view, and we can't confirm if whatever he tells us is truth, or if he doesn't hide any information from us. You may call this bullshit, but there are moments which suggest this.

Spoiler

You wrote all this just cause I used words "deeply cared".. Ha...
It doesn't matter tho since whatever word I'd use, even if it was "protect", my point would make sense, since the point was "Alex isn't a bad man unlike how he is shown on pictures.". Look beginning of chapter 14, the text says ".. is someone who protects his allies while being able to slay the enemies for a long time. Someone who wouldn't be isolated in the midst even if left behind.." and later "The reason why Alex will be called the "sword king" in the future, is because not only because he was able to protect his allies like a iron wall..". But what is shown on every of 4 panels? 1. Him alone. 2. Him alone killing enemies. 3. Him alone after killing enemies. 4. Him alone in very, very furious state. What does it mean? It means that the text doesn't match the pictures, and it shows Alex in bad light.

No, what I've wrote is actually accurate and even if I can't cite anything there is a way to find a proof, since there are only 2 possible routes.
1. MC was normal person before coming. He came to fantasy world and was corrupted by it.
2. MC wasn't normal person before coming. That makes everything he blamed on gods and everyone else unreasonable, and also nullifies the idea that it was "a bad world" cause in this case it'd be he who is bad.
This leaves first route the only one possible, but still.. Story doesn't tell us straight what route it is, and leaves area around his beginning blank, but there are short reminders where it's shown how badly he was treated. In these moments he looked like a innocent and defenseless boy (like when he was first trained by Alex), which is how every "normal" hero begins.

By "valuable" you mean "useful"? Cause that's how hero judges people. Im sure he wouldn't see this Elf Prince like that if he didn't gave him sword.

And yeah, once again you try to talk about something completely different than story, which at this point is not even laughable.

You make it sound like he did it for greater good, but that's not what happened. He did it for EXP so he can get home. Defeating Demon King for him was never about saving people.

Kidnapping isn't decided by person but by law. It's like a parents taking their son to visit grandma, but son doesn't really want to go. Also, as he comes to a different world, the law of his previous one doesn't apply there.
"he wasn't seized or detained or carried away by unlawful force, he wasn't taken away illegally by force." - No? It never happened. No one told him "if you don't do this we will kill you, or beat you". No one also kept him at cell and confined his freedom, even opposite, they wanted him to go and have adventures around the world.
He went through the training to make him ready for a world that awaits him, and also so he won't die. If something, these people wanted him to help.
"told to go kill the demon king without support from from his abductors" - What about companions? What about Lanuvel?
"payment (kill the demon king)" - That seems more like a mission objective to me than a payment, since payment means to give something that is yours. Also they didn't tell him to give them any loot he is gonna get from demon king, or return EXP for killing him.

That was my answer to what you said, and you said "mistreated and forced" which is baseless accusation, but makes things sound like he came there with different expectations and just didn't get what he wanted. Saying like he wanted to be treated like God is too much, but it's quite accurate.

Killing animals is bad, but what he killed were monsters. You know, the ones that attack people. He was trained in combat before so it wasn't his first time fighting. Also, no one "forced" him to do it, it was more like a "quest" and you can drop quests, and its funny how we can see hero one time hesitate before killing a monster, but another thousand times we see him enjoying it.

In Cheat Kusushi no Slow Life and Isekai Yakkyoku main characters class is pharmacist, not a hero. Pharmacist saves people after they are injured, and hero is supposed to save them before they get killed by monster. Usually if you get summoned to another world there is purpose for it (demon king for example), not to chill. And we don't know for sure if there is no other way to exp in this world. From heros observations we can conclude killing is most efficient, and that's why he does it, but he left us in blank about everything else.

Where is innocence in being a murderer? There is none. Even if you kill someone who deserves death.
Elf Prince was innocent? This guy was lying about how sad he was about the death of Elf Princess, but had "Satisfied" status. His words about "peace and equality" were probably lies as well. His morality was equal to heros. Also, you don't get lvl 999+ from farming vegetables, do you?
Why are you talking like his objectives like uniting elves and humans was a good thing? Earlier you called these humans "kidnappers" and now you talk like it's elves fault for fighting with them. Shouldn't you be more like "These humans deserve death! Elves, kill them!"?

"I'm sure he would find many chances to run away" and die of old age in a world far removed from his family, with no flush toilets. Don't make me explain how the hero wants to go home and how running away is not an option. Stop making stupid statements like this.

A story about him trying to find other way to gain EXP sounds like much better idea, than what we currently have. Also, if he loves toilets so much he could've just started toilet business in isekai world. Sounds fun.

Child soldier, he? This gets more stupid with your every argument. Child soldier isn't such a cheap word you can use however you want. You should separate reality with isekai manga. Its like trying to put such morality into fucking Pokemon, where it'd be that little kids enslave monsters and fight with them as if they were gladiators.

"forced murder job"
He learnt from his master by his own will. You miss entire point.

"Our hero laughs when she dies tho" Yes and you know why he does and how he regrets it later, not for good reasons, thanks for the half truth. But that's really irrelevant to my points.

Yeah, actually true. Your point was that she was the only one not corrupted.
By regretting do you mean when he had to do chores in her place after her death? If yes, then lol.
In chapter 19, he is ready to let Lanuvel and his porter die, but chooses not to do so cause there is a slight chance he might fail once again.

"Doing chores, fighting tsundere, getting trained to defeat demon king.. Is this a abuse? NO." The entire parties chores, tsundere is baseless and getting punched in the face is not training so yeah, abuse you masochist.

In real world yes, fortunately in manga no. Well, in real world there are no heros, tsunderes and no reason to train to kill demon king. Also, before Lanuvel died she was the one doing chores.

At this point I think I will not only call hero a trash but also a pussy, since that's what he is for getting "dehumanized" by a tsundere.

I don't think not sane companions would say:
"Violence is not the only solution!"
"A hero is a the person who deliver hope, not death!"
The elf princess was a tsundere, so of course she was violent, but that comes from her character not rage or madness.
You have special skill to make eating meat sounds like it's a bad thing.
There is evidence. Hero isn't suffering from Stockholm syndrome. If the abuse was so hard then 10 years would be more than enough for it to show up, but he clearly can think calmly even in face to his long-time abuser.

But wait it's time for the cherry on top. Someone has been judging his actions and they claim to be a god.

You try to make it sound like there is big conspiracy going on against hero, and there are no gods, it's just someone else who just claims to be them. You miss the fact that in most of fantasy worlds gods actually do exist. THIS PART IS REALLY IMPORTANT. It just shows how easily you got influenced on by heros enemy complex. You should look at this story from bigger perspective, but you decline to do it and also to think by yourself.

"associated" doesn't really have to mean working together. Gods simply give summoners the option to summon a hero, since they lack power to defeat the demon king. It shows that Gods do care about this world.

No kidding the gods wanted a scenario to play out and didn't get the result they liked. Water is wet.

Why is it not fine just to follow the scenario? If he did that everyone would be happy, even him.

I totally meant that EXP is less important than someones lives. My opinion didn't change from the beginning.

Wait, so later in the story something happened with dragon and a lot of people died? That sounds like something I could use as a argument, unfortunately I didn't read to that part. Too bad..

"When we look back at the history of dragons, they are gentle creatures.."
And heros reaction to this (mad in rage):
"WHAT SHOULD I EXPECT FROM YOU GUYS?"

You're bullshitting and spitting hyperbole at this point and attempting to bow out while not learning anything besides how to argue a bit better. Good job laying off projecting your views onto me, good arguments are only muddied by that stuff, even if it feels good.

Let's be clear. It was you who first wrote to me and didn't agree with my opinion. If someone is projecting something on someone then it's you.
If my arguments somehow hurt you, then sorry, that wasn't my goal. I love characters that stay positive no matter what hardships they go through, or at least they stay good. Im fine with characters being bad if there is good reason for it, but usually that's not the case. Yesterday I read a manga about a dood that become a NEET just cause he lost a job, and even if the story was interesting, thanks to this one simple thing that was over-dramatized I've dropped it. And that's the case here. Our hero is far from going through what Guts in Berserk went through or even Shinji in Evangelion. I get your point. There is some rationality left in what MC does, and even if these are just selfish desires he is still sane. And I'm sorry but I cannot accept it. With what we've been given till this point of story, chapter 42 I think, most of his actions stay unreasonable and unless there are gonna be some big revelations later, it's not gonna change.
Also I feel bad you are calling what I've wrote bullshit and hyperbola. I spent time writing all of this just for you. I really wanted you to understand my opinion, but you instead, choose not to. You didn't address any of it: MC POV, enemy complex, holes in important parts of the story. I guess that's what you call bullshit, but I don't. You expect me to learn something from you, but you yourself didn't learn anything from me. I appreciate that you answered me multiple times, even if it was in half-ass way, but please understand that no one wants to talk only to get ridiculed.

I'm sure there are better "as he deals with unreasonable circumstance in a shitty way." type of stories than this. These unreasonable circumstances seem to me just to be created cause MC wants them.

I will go as far as saying, I wish I was at his place.

 

[GrimThoughts]

Holy shit, don’t you two get tired of this? Neither of your opinions will change, so what’s the point?

 

[home7]

I seem to be having an issue here

@GrimThoughts That's Quitter Talk

Spoiler

But also what echo chamber am I going to get practice arguing with someone who is both wrong and has a conflicting opinion? Also he needs the practice if were being honest here.

@carero12

Spoiler

"Actions are only rational when there is cause and effect." Get abducted to a place you don't like, focus on getting home. Forced to start over with new stated guidelines, game the system as hard as you can and try to do it faster. He's also talking to himself so that would be the author hiding things, and there is nothing to support that. "there are moments which suggest this" Cite them.

"You wrote all this just cause I used words 'deeply cared'" Oh so you wrote words you did not in fact mean and I am the fool for taking your words at face value? Then use the words you mean. "Someone who wouldn't be isolated in the midst even if left behind" means him being alone, but I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying because you said a word when you meant a different word with a different meaning and you are not just pushing your perception on what you think is going on in the scene.

"I can't cite anything" Then it probably didn't happen. "only 2 possible routes" this another instance of you using the wrong language? It also depends on what you define as normal, ignoring that the author is Korean and the MC is likely Korean as well so the MC likely has Korean values. "which is how every 'normal' hero begins" Being a hero is not license for your "comrades" to beat on you why do you think anyone would want that.

God damn I just scrolled down and you're ballooning this shit like crazy, AGAIN.

Value means value. Useful is only one aspect of value. He also values his family and getting home.
"you try to talk about something completely different than story" So you haven't read the story of Sisyphus, where in he is punished for his deeds by being forced to roll a boulder up a hill for all eternity because it always slips from his grasp and rolls back down the hill. I'll try to remember you're not well read and not use other literature as examples from now on.

"You make it sound like he did it for greater good, but that's not what happened. He did it for EXP so he can get home. Defeating Demon King for him was never about saving people."
He did it not to show he was good but because it saved the most lives and he felt that would grant him achievement points to boost the achievement part of his report card, good was a byproduct of his practical action. You keep talking about saving lives but in a practical sense he very efficiently did save a ton of lives just by preventing wars like when he shot the princess off a cliff. Damn shame about that dragon rampage though, good thing it will pay off in round 3.

"Kidnapping isn't decided by person but by law." "Also, as he comes to a different world, the law of his previous one doesn't apply there." So if alien's abducted you to their planet and then ended your life, it's not murder if their law says it's not.

"you said 'mistreated and forced' which is baseless accusation" What are you a parrot? The easily found basis for that assertion is the reiterated accounts from the MC where in he states that they did mistreat him. Learn the language and stop acting like a kid trying to get back at someone that used a big word to make em feel foolish. "but it's quite accurate" No it wasn't because for it to be accurate it would have to be true and I just said it wasn't and I will say it again.

"Killing animals is bad, but what he killed were monsters." Oh are you a vegetarian? Regardless you missed the point entirely which was that it is unreasonable to expect a kid to do that, it's not an easy task for a 10 year old. How can you not figure this out? "but what he killed were monsters. You know, the ones that attack people." Kill all animals that hurt people, got it. That's wolves bears tigers lions all of em, because it's ok. I'm pointing out how childish this statement is. Yeah No one forced him to work hard to get back home to his family, it was just a quest, it didn't really matter. "its funny" Was it funny, did it make you laugh? don't waste my time making shit points like this, cite the occurrence so I can point out how a person who just started killing monsters is different from a person that has been doing it for 10 years or shut it.

"let me be clear, thats how it is in every single fucking isekai." "In Cheat Kusushi no Slow Life and Isekai Yakkyoku main characters class is pharmacist, not a hero." Oh I guess they aren't really isekai and then and the tags are just a mistake. You chose your words poorly, cop to it and let it go, stop trying to salvage it and choose your words more carefully from now on.

"Why are you talking like his objectives like uniting elves and humans was a good thing?" Have you lost track? Achievements for finishing and going home, saving lives by preventing war, having a more level headed person leading the elves. If you're going to waste both of our times ballooning your posts with this thing tell me why it's a bad thing? But actually please don't.
"Shouldn't you be more like 'These humans deserve death! Elves, kill them!'?" no that's just your biased presumptions about how I feel that you're projecting onto me.

Spoiler

"A story about him trying to find other way to gain EXP sounds like much better idea, than what we currently have. Also, if he loves toilets so much he could've just started toilet business in isekai world. Sounds fun." This isn't a god damned sand box for you to go and RP in, he want's to go the hell home how are you not getting that. This not a story about whatever fun time power trip you would pursue. Stop suggesting the MC should break character. Stop suggesting the MC should act in conflict with his personal motivations. Stop suggesting the MC should do what you would do. This is a story about the MC and what he has chosen to do, not a story about what you would do in his situation.
"You should separate reality with isekai manga." Nice cop out.
"He learnt from his master by his own will." There's that guilt by association again.

"Yeah, actually true." Which is why I don't need to respond to this paragraph, thank god.

"In real world yes, fortunately in manga no." No no no, you don't apply that kind of cop out, no hiding behind "it's just a work of fiction." Also you're wrong because plenty of manga go realism. "no tsunderes" False, girls that pick on boys they like is old school. "getting 'dehumanized' by a tsundere" You're mixing up things now. fix your reading comprehension. "You have special skill to make eating meat sounds like it's a bad thing." For an Elf in this story, it is.

"The elf princess was a tsundere, so of course she was violent, but that comes from her character not rage or madness. You have special skill to make eating meat sounds like it's a bad thing." Factually wrong and ignorant. It's mentioned in the story how she's, and I'll say it again, Impulsive violent eat's meat when other elves don't because it upsets the elf elemental spirits or whatever. She is not a tsundere. "Hero isn't suffering from Stockholm syndrome." I never said or suggested the MC was suffering from Stockholm syndrome.

"You try to make it sound" I state a fact that a being has appeared before the MD and it says that it is a god. Whether or not this is true remains to be seen. "the fact that in most of fantasy worlds" He's not in those worlds, he's in this one. "you got influenced" I didn't take that part of the story at face value and the MC never actually say's they are not gods, stop making baseless statements. "look at this story from bigger perspective" Bigger than what you would do if you were in this situation? Bigger than the fact that they keep resetting this world over 194 times as if it were the movie groundhog day with isekai heroes swapping out for the MC? "you, you you." Ok bud.
"'associated' doesn't really have to mean working together." At no point did I say associated means working together. "Gods simply give summoners the option to summon a hero, since they lack power to defeat the demon king. It shows that Gods do care about this world." I reiterate, this exact same world has been reset over 194 times. Your assessment of the relationship between the "gods" of that world and it's people is fiction.

"Why is it not fine just to follow the scenario?" At no point did I say it was not. "If he did that everyone would be happy, even him." Baseless assumption.
"meant that EXP is less important than someones lives" That's relative and you're still not grasping that the characters that are not the hero are stuck in a seemingly infinite loop without release where many of them have died over a hundred times.

"Something happened with dragon and a lot of people died? That sounds like something I could use as a argument, unfortunately I didn't read to that part." Do it, then I'll point your own logic at you about how he failed the second round and now has the opportunity to save EVEN MORE people AND he also has all his skills from the second round specifically because of that dragon fight. ""When we look back at the history of dragons, they are gentle creatures.." Not that dragon, it wasted half the continent chasing him in rage.

"Let's be clear" This is gonna be good.
"It was you who first wrote to me and didn't agree with my opinion. If someone is projecting something on someone then it's you. " That's not how projecting works ya goof. And the first post I made to you was a framing of the plot while only mentioning you at the beginning to suggest you were reading a different story.
"hurt you" No they were just annoying and a waste of time to read since they don't support our arguments one way or another. It's like if person A say's a historical figure was nothing but evil and then person B says literally anything that suggests the historical figure was anything less than evil, and then person A starts calling person B evil saying they are defending the evil acts of Historical figure when Person B just wanted to point out the inaccuracies. This is a commonplace real world occurrence. I think the less people act like this the better we all will be, overall.

"There is some rationality left in what MC does, and even if these are just selfish desires he is still sane." Well Alright.
"And I'm sorry but I cannot accept it." That's fine.
"most of his actions stay unreasonable" Debatable.
"Also I feel bad you are calling what I've wrote bullshit and hyperbola." Sorry I just didn't want to write a few more paragraphs arguing baseless points, but it was not my intention to hurt your feelings. Inversely if I was made of softer stuff I might have been more hurt by your persistent use of "You Language," I suggest you read up on it as it is very useful to understand in communication. I know I did it a bit as well but I didn't think it was having that much of an impact, again I apologize if your feelings were hurt.

"I wish I was at his place" I've known for a while, you should wish to be in a nicer isekai honestly.

Spoiler

If we keep going, I'll make a better effort man.

 

[carero12]

@home7

Spoiler

"there are moments which suggest this" Cite them.

I already did. You called them "bullshit".

"You wrote all this just cause I used words 'deeply cared'" Oh so you wrote words you did not in fact mean and I am the fool for taking your words at face value? Then use the words you mean.

No, you are a fool for ignoring most of my words and just choosing these you can use against me.

It also depends on what you define as normal, ignoring that the author is Korean and the MC is likely Korean as well so the MC likely has Korean values. "which is how every 'normal' hero begins".

Normal means what we've seen and that was guy with friends, looking at his smartphone. Getting bullied for example isn't normal.
You saying that hero has the same values as the author, is equal to admitting there don't really have to be a reason inside story to why he is so mad at entire world. Which is one of my points.

"Being a hero is not license for your "comrades" to beat on you why do you think anyone would want that."

Beaten by a tsundere.

"He also values his family and getting home."

He never said he wants to go back to family. All he talked about were flushed toilets.

"you try to talk about something completely different than story" So you haven't read the story of Sisyphus, where in he is punished for his deeds by being forced to roll a boulder up a hill for all eternity because it always slips from his grasp and rolls back down the hill. I'll try to remember you're not well read and not use other literature as examples from now on.

Our hero wasn't cursed by gods. There was a way for him to return home. Also, the act of rolling stone up the hill means to represent a never-ending torture. Our hero doesn't go through any torture on second try. Your reference was much worse than awful.

The easily found basis for that assertion is the reiterated accounts from the MC where in he states that they did mistreat him.

I don't trust what hero says unless it's shown as a fact. One of my points.

No it wasn't because for it to be accurate it would have to be true and I just said it wasn't and I will say it again.

XD?

"but what he killed were monsters. You know, the ones that attack people." Kill all animals that hurt people, got it. That's wolves bears tigers lions all of em, because it's ok. I'm pointing out how childish this statement is.

Do you mean animals as in our world or in theirs? In our world we are long past the age where animals are any danger to us, but there were times where they were and people murdered them massively. If theirs, then it's not applicable. We don't know if wolves, or bears in their world are the same as in ours and have the same behavior.

This isn't a god damned sand box for you to go and RP in, he want's to go the hell home how are you not getting that. This not a story about whatever fun time power trip you would pursue. Stop suggesting the MC should break character. Stop suggesting the MC should act in conflict with his personal motivations. Stop suggesting the MC should do what you would do. This is a story about the MC and what he has chosen to do, not a story about what you would do in his situation.

That's exactly what I and you should do. This is a story that tells you to learn from what MC done wrong, not to defend or imitate him.

"Yeah, actually true." Which is why I don't need to respond to this paragraph, thank god.

You ask me to cite you something, speak about facts and when I give it to you that's how you respond? That's not very nice.

"In real world yes, fortunately in manga no." No no no, you don't apply that kind of cop out, no hiding behind "it's just a work of fiction." Also you're wrong because plenty of manga go realism. "no tsunderes" False, girls that pick on boys they like is old school.

Don't cut my messages however you like. You change entire meaning of them by doing so.
"In real world yes, fortunately in manga no. Well, in real world there are no heros, tsunderes and no reason to train to kill demon king."

The elf princess was a tsundere, so of course she was violent, but that comes from her character not rage or madness. You have special skill to make eating meat sounds like it's a bad thing." Factually wrong and ignorant. It's mentioned in the story how she's, and I'll say it again, Impulsive violent eat's meat when other elves don't because it upsets the elf elemental spirits or whatever.

Chapter 19: Elf Princess while defending hero from a dragon: "Dragons are siblings of the elementals! Do you think I'll allow such meaningless slaughter for the sake of humans?"

"Hero isn't suffering from Stockholm syndrome." I never said or suggested the MC was suffering from Stockholm syndrome

But you said he was "dehumanized to the bloodshed". Don't you think he should have Stockholm syndrome if that's what truly happened and kept going for 10 years?

"You try to make it sound" I state a fact that a being has appeared before the MD and it says that it is a god.

"Someone has been judging his actions and they claim to be a god.". How is this stating a fact. How is it saying "they are a god". "Someone"? "claim"? How.

"the fact that in most of fantasy worlds" He's not in those worlds, he's in this one.

Don't cut my messages however you like. You change entire meaning of them by doing so..
"You miss the fact that in most of fantasy worlds gods actually do exist."

"If he did that everyone would be happy, even him." Baseless assumption.

If we both can accept the fact, that him getting home is a happy ending, then no, it's not baseless assumption.

"chasing him in rage."

Exactly. Him. Not someone else. In rage. Dragon awakened from deep slumber. By him. Yes.

since they don't support our arguments one way or another.

[Ours? You mean YOURS, and that's why you have a problem with them.

Inversely if I was made of softer stuff I might have been more hurt by your persistent use of "You Language," I suggest you read up on it as it is very useful to understand in communication. I know I did it a bit as well but I didn't think it was having that much of an impact, again I apologize if your feelings were hurt.

So you used it first, but still make a argument about me using it... Haa..

"I wish I was at his place" I've known for a while, you should wish to be in a nicer isekai honestly.

Nah, this isekai is nice enough.

Danimal696 said: "its been cut from adaption, by this point he has done the half-elf and the human queen"
Would a person who is abused by someone, "do" them?

That's not how projecting works ya goof.

I posted my message in comment section that wasn't directed to anyone special. It wasn't offensive and only showed my opinions supported by "fake" facts. But then you showed up and tried to fight my fake facts with your fake facts. Midway through, for whatever the reason that sounded good to you, you decided to project your opinion on me. You even say it yourself. "Im going to try to focus on point's that support my core point and give minimal effort to the things you write that have no weight on this.". We no longer at this point debated about my opinion. It was you, alone, trying to project your view on me. I had no obligation to listen what you have to say, but I still did, I'am a cool guy you see.

With each new message I get the feeling that this smart person I talked to, isn't as smart as I thought.

 

[Bl00dw0rk701]

Fact is, this hero is a freakin BASTARD and that's why this manga is freakin AWESOME!

I'm tired of those goody-two-shoes morally correct protagonists or those that scream on every second page about how villainous they are, but then they "character develop" and start seeing the benefits of being a nice guy. I just love how morally twisted this whole story is, and the artist did a fckin GREAT job to create something abnormal as this!

 

[home7]

@carero12 Alright man, that last couple of paragraphs from your prior post really reached me so I'm gonna be putting in more effort going forward. But that means the thing I've been avoiding, the walls of text in response are gonna be coming now. Please take your time reading it, I want you to give it serious thought.

Spoiler

I failed to appreciate that the degree of effort you were putting in up to this point and in my pursuit of short concise and most of all time saving points I failed to appreciate the words you were attempting to convey to me. I make no guarantees as to whether or not I will agree with your points, only that I will make the effort to give them full regard without summary dismissal. I hope you in turn appreciate the amount of effort I am putting forward as I give each point full consideration, and in doing so repeat myself several times as I express not just the events of the story provable and perceived but my thoughts and feelings on the events of the story as well as your accounts and assertions of both the story and any other subject you put fourth. It was foolish on my part to expect you to learn anything from my earlier abbreviations and I hope that going forward you learn from my remarks if not the position I present if your future discussions.
For reference, my typical place of discourse is one where in feelings and thoughts on matters are immaterial in the face of facts, precedent and provable events. In this place assertions reliant only personal feelings and opinions or without proof are immediately met with derision. Supporting this behavior are the features of this place discourse, where in one can rapidly share video, images and archives supporting the statements as well as the ability to speak free of fear of repercussions from the moderation for speaking freely. I should not have assumed you to be familiar with this manner of discourse and it was wrong to do so. This is however why I replied in such a brief manner, out of habit.

Also I want to mention the reason I have been using split spoilers for these posts was to make reading these walls of text easier, and to not inconvenience the others with our walls of text.

Spoiler

I already did. You called them "bullshit".

And I am sorry for that, it was not my intent to hurt you. However when I ask for a citation I mean the chapter and page where the event took place, as you did when you wrote “In chapter 19, he is ready to let Lanuvel and his porter die, but chooses not to do so cause there is a slight chance he might fail once again.” I appreciated the effort you made in citing that even if it was only the chapter. I did not reply to it because I felt it was not relevant to my core points, but I did appreciate the effort you put fourth in doing so. Again I am sorry for not conveying my appreciation of your improved effort. Not only do I appreciate the effort in general but in your attempts to support your points and your effort to satisfy my demands for citation.

No, you are a fool for ignoring most of my words and just choosing these you can use against me.

I chose the words operating under that logic and assumed you meant to the letter what you said and argued that point. I apologize for only taking your words at face value and not considering that you misspoke and in turn asking you to clarify. As you said it is a low thing to attempt to win a discussion by resorting to questioning the writing skills of the person who’s assertions you are contending and this is one instance where I chose to avoid questioning you on the intent of your words a another time. In my typical discussions I make great effort to speak to the letter of my exact meaning, knowing full well that my failure to do so will be met with ridicule or disregard. One time I told my friends I self insert as character type, misspoke saying the female version of the character type sending the people I was speaking with into confusion, though nobody questioned me for clarification. I only realized hours later the mistake I had made. It was wrong of me to expect you to to operate under the same way of thinking.

Normal means what we've seen and that was guy with friends, looking at his smartphone. Getting bullied for example isn't normal.
You saying that hero has the same values as the author, is equal to admitting there don't really have to be a reason inside story to why he is so mad at entire world. Which is one of my points.

No, what I've wrote is actually accurate and even if I can't cite anything there is a way to find a proof, since there are only 2 possible routes.
1. MC was normal person before coming. He came to fantasy world and was corrupted by it.
2. MC wasn't normal person before coming. That makes everything he blamed on gods and everyone else unreasonable, and also nullifies the idea that it was "a bad world" cause in this case it'd be he who is bad.
This leaves first route the only one possible, but still.. Story doesn't tell us straight what route it is, and leaves area around his beginning blank, but there are short reminders where it's shown how badly he was treated. In these moments he looked like a innocent and defenseless boy (like when he was first trained by Alex), which is how every "normal" hero begins.

When I say that the story is written by a Korean author I’m referring to the difference in culture and what normal is in that culture. In my experience reading Manga and Manhwa I’ve more frequently found in many but not all Manhwa that the MC is a little more self serving and conniving than the main characters in Manga. Further there seems to be more of a fixation on status with the world of Manhwa compared to Manga as well. Both of these seem to take place more heavily in cultivation Manhwa. I want to stress again that that this is not always the case and only my observation. I feel as though what occurs in Japanese Isekai is a desire for wide open spaces, not needing to worry about status or power usually facilitated by immediately being given the keys to the castle. Inversely I feel the Korean Isekai and other genres focus more on the act of accumulating power. Again, this is only my observation.
But to stress more on what we perceive to be normal as opposed to what Koreans perceive to be normal is their sense of family. In China there is a question of some note that they even ask you in job interviews. “if your mother and your wife were drowning and you could only save one, which would you save.” The common and believed to be correct answer in China is that you should save your mother over your wife. My understanding is that Koreans have a similar view of immediate family, including parents and siblings, being more important than your spouse. For your reference in support of this statement I present you a link to this article where in it is stated “Mothers indoctrinated their sons by telling them that his parents and brothers were more important than a wife.” https://www.ekoreajournal.net/issue/view_pop.htm?Idx=3183
I only make these points to illustrate that what we perceive to be normal is not necessarily what the Author and MC may perceive as normal, not to suggest that that MC and the Author have the same values. I suppose I am also making a point supporting my earlier assertions about how he wishes to return home to his family more than remain in this isekai world and muddle about even though you and I may be apt to squander our time enjoying the local flavor. The MC, being Korean and having “respect” for his parents in the Korean way is motivated by his upbringing to return home to his parents and be a dutiful son. In hindsight I really should have brought up JIP/Korean Family Values quite a bit earlier and I’m sorry I didn’t. The Korean sense of family duty is quite a bit different to contemporary America.

Spoiler

Beaten by a tsundere.

I don’t think Koreans have the same thing about being an S or an M as the Japanese but I suppose I can see your point from a subjective standpoint, you M.

He never said he wants to go back to family. All he talked about were flushed toilets.

Well you may be right about not specifically saying he wanted to get back home to his family. I cannot at present remember if he said that he specifically wanted to return home to his family. Only that he specifically said in chapter 1 page 7 that “When I’ll get back on earth again I’ll respect and take care of my parents, date, game, eat, olympic, and more than anything I can use a flushing toilet after 10 years!” and that in chapter 2 page 2 he states “Meanwhile I tried every day without exception, to go back to my original world....” I have no idea what Olympic as a single word means. While Presume that his family is part of his motivation I don’t not recall a specific time he said specifically that he wanted to get back home to his family.

Our hero wasn't cursed by gods. There was a way for him to return home. Also, the act of rolling stone up the hill means to represent a never-ending torture. Our hero doesn't go through any torture on second try. Your reference was much worse than awful.

And also gods undoing all of the deaths gives a hero chance to save a lot of people.

My intent was not to suggest the MC was cursed but to liken resetting the world with the justification of saving my lives to the labors of Sisyphus. In the hypothetical circumstance where that was the only objective, saving more lives, the resets could be as never ending as the task of rolling the boulder up the hill. I do appreciate that you attempted to make an argument for better behavior by the Hero but the logical conclusion of resetting the world to save the most lives is almost an inhuman task by itself unless you employ extreme tactics on par with those of the hero in the second round and the task is almost inhuman if not divine in demand if questionable tactics are not employed. I also appreciate that you were not suggesting it was preferable to force the MC to do this only that he had the opportunity to do better.

I don't trust what hero says unless it's shown as a fact. One of my points.

Fair enough but please bear in mind that your position is a subjective one that disqualifies much of the stories narration including all accounts of the first round made by him. Please also be conscious that you are ignoring statements about his former party but not about his toilet lust.

Saying like he wanted to be treated like God is too much, but it's quite accurate.

No it wasn't because for it to be accurate it would have to be true and I just said it wasn't and I will say it again.

XD?

Yes that was a rather poor statement to put forth on my part. I will still argue that the MC did not expect to be treated like a god and that while he did expect to be better treated and perhaps lauded as a hero with parades and the like it is still inaccurate to sate that wished to be treated as a god. More like, a famed hero even if he had done nothing to prove it. An interesting point to bring up is in this third round he is forced to behave when meeting the king for the first time, apparently not being familiar with the customs the royals sneered at his introduction in the first round and with his now well versed understanding of the customs was seen in a more positive light by the nobility in the introduction to the king. My point being that it suggests he was looked down upon in his first round for being unable to bow and show respect properly in the first round as nobles seem want to demand, resulting in some of his misfortune. But that is only supposition on my part.

Do you mean animals as in our world or in theirs? In our world we are long past the age where animals are any danger to us, but there were times where they were and people murdered them massively. If theirs, then it's not applicable. We don't know if wolves, or bears in their world are the same as in ours and have the same behavior.

Unfortunately your it is untrue that we are long past the dangers of wild animal attacks. In the last 10 years there were 8 fatal crocodile attacks, over 150 wolf attacks, 2 fatal cougar attacks, and 29 fatal bear attacks with only the wolf numbers including attacks outside North America. While being lower numbers than the fatal car accidents in the US alone by a vast chasm the risk does remain. However That’s not the point I’m trying to make. As far as the animals of the world, at least in his narration which I know you question, we see the elf princess did hunt wild boar. Chapter 32 Page 3
In truth I was making sarcastic snipes at your expense with regard to your logic of who and what was morally and ethically acceptable to kill in response to your evaluations like “Killing animals is bad, but what he killed were monsters. You know, the ones that attack people.” It was spurred on by my perception that your metric for deciding what was and what was not acceptable to kill was shallow and thoughtless. It was not fair of me to act as if you were aware with how I took issue with it without explaining properly. It was not fair to you, sorry.

Spoiler

That's exactly what I and you should do. This is a story that tells you to learn from what MC done wrong, not to defend or imitate him.

I’m afraid you’ve lost me here. Could you Elaborate?

You ask me to cite you something, speak about facts and when I give it to you that's how you respond? That's not very nice.

You’re right, and while I have already brought this up it bears saying again. I’m sorry for not acknowledging your efforts to meet my demands for citation. It was thoughtless and inconsiderate to not at least acknowledge the effort you put forth. It doesn’t really support or go against my argument about whether or not he is rational or reasonable or sane. Again I’m sorry for not acknowledging your effort and I really do appreciate it for a great many reasons.

Don't cut my messages however you like. You change entire meaning of them by doing so.
"In real world yes, fortunately in manga no. Well, in real world there are no heros, tsunderes and no reason to train to kill demon king."

I didn’t see the importance of keeping them together for the point and while I still don’t I do see that it was a supporting point to the first statement. I also have to disagree with the assertion that there are no heroes or tsunderes, unless you mean in a way I do not understand or hero in the strictest isekai sense then I can only disagree with the assertion that there are no tsunderes.

The elf princess was a tsundere, so of course she was violent, but that comes from her character not rage or madness. You have special skill to make eating meat sounds like it's a bad thing." Factually wrong and ignorant. It's mentioned in the story how she's, and I'll say it again, Impulsive violent eat's meat when other elves don't because it upsets the elf elemental spirits or whatever.

Chapter 19: Elf Princess while defending hero from a dragon: "Dragons are siblings of the elementals! Do you think I'll allow such meaningless slaughter for the sake of humans?"

That narration from the hero is certainly a bizzare contrast with the later statement from the prince in chapter 32 who said “Silvia used to enjoy cooking and hunting herself. That’s why she often made the elements angry” followed by the MC narrating that “I knew that she loved meat unlike the other elves.” suggesting “maybe she was able to enjoy meat because she didn’t care about the anger of the elements.” I’m not certain what to attribute that to but I would expect it was some sort of adaptation error or something bizzare about her behavior but I could not say for certain. However I don’t see how this established her as a tsundere, maybe we’ll see in the third round if she is encountered again, or another round if there is one. Anyway would you care to elaborate on your reasoning as to why her defense of the dragon makes her a tsundere?

But you said he was "dehumanized to the bloodshed". Don't you think he should have Stockholm syndrome if that's what truly happened and kept going for 10 years?

I think I see what you are trying to say here but that was not what I was getting at. When I refer to him being dehumanized to the bloodshed, words chosen as art of a poor joke, I am suggesting that the 10 years he spent killing monster beast and human to the point it became so routine it was almost habit. When I said “advocating altruism to help your kidnappers only says Stockholm syndrome” I was asserting that your statement with regard to an even earlier exchange.

You ask "why should an outsider with no vested interest in that world show any consideration for it". You don't need a reason for it, that should be natural for every person in the world, but I guess not for you.

In response to this I suggested that to give help to your perceived kidnappers as as an altruist would help the needy suggested Stockholm syndrome. I did not suggest at any point that the MC had Stockholm syndrome. It was a somewhat backhanded statement and I appologize as it was unnecessary to express my disagreement in that way.

Spoiler

"Someone has been judging his actions and they claim to be a god.". How is this stating a fact. How is it saying "they are a god". "Someone"? "claim"? How.

An entity has appeared and professes themselves to be a god. While it is provable fact that they appeared and that they say they are a god, the truth of whether or not they are a god can be debated as easily as the statements in the MC’s narrations. I do not trust the “god.” If a stranger walks up to you on the street and says “I am god.” Just as well if you were in a fantasy world and Tim the Enchanter appeared before you cast some fireballs and declared himself a god, you would only have his word and a light show to go by. I am not asserting that the entity that claims godhood is without power, only that it’s assertion that it is a god is questionable.

"the fact that in most of fantasy worlds"

Don't cut my messages however you like. You change entire meaning of them by doing so..
"You miss the fact that in most of fantasy worlds gods actually do exist."

I see the meaning you are trying to convey and that if we cared about observers to our conversations it would be a misrepresentation of your words. But I have to argue that my point still stands and I wonder what impact the loss of those words had on my point?

If we both can accept the fact, that him getting home is a happy ending, then no, it's not baseless assumption.

While it is possible that through his compliance he may be satisfied and even happy, the people of the world would not be, they would be reset for the next hero. It’s unfair for me to give you a summary dismissal like that and I’ll put in a better effort to explain my point in the future.

I realize my responses are getting thinner at this point.

""When we look back at the history of dragons, they are gentle creatures.." Not that dragon, it wasted half the continent chasing him in rage.

"chasing him in rage."

Exactly. Him. Not someone else. In rage. Dragon awakened from deep slumber. By him. Yes.

Two paragraphs ago expressed to me, for the second time that you did not appreciate my cutting short what you had written because it changed the entire meaning. Honestly I’m putting an effort in here and I feel a little put out by what seems to me to be a double standard. If you feel I am wrong in reducing the size of your quotes I would appreciate being shown the same courtesy. The level of consistency expressed boy holding yourself to the same standard you expect of others would go a long way towards adding weight to your arguments.

"hurt you" No they were just annoying and a waste of time to read since they don't support our arguments one way or another.

since they don't support our arguments one way or another.

Ours? You mean YOURS, and that's why you have a problem with them.

I see you worship main character as if he was a Jesus.

I must reiterate the value of holding yourself to the same standards you expect of others. Any efforts to be taken as unbiased and objective will be compromised by holding separate standards on how one person may speak while not following that same standard, and will lead to more arguments distracting from the core arguments. This is something anyone who wants to be decent at this type of argument would need to do.
The statement “I see you worship main character as if he was a Jesus.” serves only to distract both of us from our core arguments regarding whether or not the MC is sane, unreasonable or irrational. It’s combative and is a statement of unwillingness to discuss the subject in earnest. Further, both statements make strong use of combative you language, I would not suggest using this form of accusatory language in any form of argument or conflict as it can only further inflame the dispute.

Spoiler

Inversely if I was made of softer stuff I might have been more hurt by your persistent use of "You Language," I suggest you read up on it as it is very useful to understand in communication. I know I did it a bit as well but I didn't think it was having that much of an impact, again I apologize if your feelings were hurt.

So you used it first, but still make a argument about me using it... Haa..

I feel as though this response was crafted without research or effort put forth to respond when I myself expressed sincerity in what it was responding to, as if it was summarily dismissed without consideration. Regardless of who made the mistake of using conflict escalating language we both continued to use it throughout our posts. I was under the impression from your last post that you wanted more meaningful and thoughtful discourse. If I was mistaken, if you prefer that I continue responding to you with dismissive statements calling half of your points bullshit and hyperbole then I will do that.

Nah, this isekai is nice enough.

As you wish it.

Danimal696 said: "its been cut from adaption, by this point he has done the half-elf and the human queen"
Would a person who is abused by someone, "do" them?

I feel as if there has been a misunderstanding as to who these people are. The Half-Elf is not one of the MC’s abusers, not the elf princess, but the confidant and right hand to the elf prince. At the point of Danimal’s post the MC is now on round three in the Manhwa, and the Queen was one of the MC’s subjects as he has now taken over the demonic cult that she was a key figure in. The Half-Elf was never one of his abusers and the queen is as loyal as a dog to him now even going so far as to use her demonic powers to mind control the king into giving the MC the coffers he acquired by compelling the king in the second round.

Spoiler

Original Post:
Most of things that we can find in manga actually somehow relate to the real world and the meanings reflect it. If we had to do it with this manga things would get quite ridiculous. The whole point of it is to fight the bad fate that was put on us against our will, that's fine, but the problem arises with the way its shown, the main character kills people and uses them to get the most value possible, because he considers them as the part of his bad fate. All of it is also justified by the whole amount of time he spent suffering by other people. What was it.. 10 years? Imagine a person to which only bad things happen for this time and thinks of himself as a total victim of it. There is something wrong with it and I'll tell you what. You always have a choice no matter what situation. The choices you make in life matter to you and other people so you always gotta take responsibility for them. The idea of this guy is that he took every bad choice and is not happy with bad ending. That's really funny.. Also.. Humans can accommodate to any place and any situation. We will find ways to laugh and joke even at the brink of the death and 10 years is a lot of a time. If it was me I'd start thinking after few months about "what if I will stay here forever" and future itself, and by it I mean friends, family, that kinda stuff. But this guy did not. That's inhuman. Great example of proper humanity is Overlords Momonga who even though can kill thousands without blinking he pays a lot of attention to his subordinates and also Rou from Re:Monster who does the same.. Yeah, by all of it I meant the main character didn't became bad cause of things that happened to him, but he was bad from the start. Some people have a few screws missing and he is one of them.. or he is just simply badly written blank character.
"Yo, but this is only a fantasy and they are just NPC's.. who cares if you kill them.." I guess that's right, but is this only me who can empathize with these characters? Killing in games is normal nowadays and that's fine, but not many of them just let a player purely enjoy abuse on a good people or civilians, aaaand then go a step further and try to justify it..
I've met a lot of people who take peace in being a victim and that's why I fucking hate this character. I hope author of this story doesn't in anyway self-relate to him..

First Reply:
@carero12 You must have been reading a different story.
The main characters thoughts feelings and motivations as well as the basic plot are summarized within the first chapter. The MC want's to go home and live a decent life as a decent person. He killed most of his party at the end because they were terrible people who abused him, this is further explained throughout the story up to the current chapter 37. The gods of the place are in fact terrible and attempting to force their world view upon him.
The main characters behavior, morality and ethics are undoubtedly questionable but only really wrong in the way he goes about achieving his objectives. He's been forced to play nice with monsters after becoming intimately familiar with them because the gods did not like the outcome despite establishing an unreasonable scenario for cultivating a heroic mindset. His reaction is sane, he is normal.

"It was you who first wrote to me and didn't agree with my opinion. If someone is projecting something on someone then it's you. "

That's not how projecting works ya goof.

I posted my message in comment section that wasn't directed to anyone special. It wasn't offensive and only showed my opinions supported by "fake" facts. But then you showed up and tried to fight my fake facts with your fake facts. Midway through, for whatever the reason that sounded good to you, you decided to project your opinion on me. You even say it yourself. "Im going to try to focus on point's that support my core point and give minimal effort to the things you write that have no weight on this.". We no longer at this point debated about my opinion. It was you, alone, trying to project your view on me. I had no obligation to listen what you have to say, but I still did, I'am a cool guy you see.

This was the most difficult part to write presenting the greatest challenge made difficult my the necessity to not escalate or inflame.
I don’t know what drew me to your post but I felt it deserved a respond. I took issue with several of the points made feeling that within the contents of the post a willing mass killer who made no excuse beyond might makes right and even lured adventures to his base only to assert that they had wronged him by invading his base, Momonga, was exalted for valuing his friends and subordinates while the MC who had killed considerably less by the time of your original post and in the pursuit of killing the demon lord was portrayed in a considerably less flattering light. I felt this was unjust and deserved a response attempting as neutral a rebuttal as I could manage primarily making assertions and stating my opinion on the events of the story along with my perceived reasoning and state of the MC’s mind, only suggesting that you had read a different story. With this stated I must assert that the presented description of events is mistaken. The issue I take with regards to the use of the word projection. While I did in fact respond to you first, that has no bearing on how projection works. Unfortunately many people misuse, my self included, have a habit of misconstruing projection with attribution. Attribution being “the interpretive process by which people make judgments about the causes of their own behavior and the behavior of others “ and Projection being “the attribution of one's own ideas, feelings, or attitudes to other people or to objects.” Half or more of the times I referred to your points as projection I of course meant attribution and there is a strong possibility that you likely mean attribution as well, but I dont intend to put words in your mouth. It’s a common mistake that I still have trouble remembering not to make.
However while I was indeed arguing that your opinion was incorrect, when I said "Im going to try to focus on point's that support my core point and give minimal effort to the things you write that have no weight on this." I was trying to make it clear that I would be ignoring inflammatory statements such as “I see you worship main character as if he was a Jesus. You accept every single thing about him as right, and positive. If he thinks "gods are bad" then they are bad, and there is no way that they aren't. You wont give a second thought about right or not right. You are like this maniac cult member. The way you summarized story is like calling apple - a banana.” and “Main character isn't a FFF trash hero without a reason. His world view, ha? He accepted what gods served him on a plate, easily got controlled by it and that's why he failed. Don't imitate him, or you will fail too.” But also refraining from making my own inflammatory statements such as“I asked if you spoke english because you make shit up, make baseless statements about character and you write like garbage. You claim things happened in the story that never happened which you couldn't cite if you tried.” but I also should have worded the statement itself “ minimal effort to the things you write” in a less confrontational way to better express my desire to focus on the subject of our discourse.

I cannot argue that I was not attempting to project my world view onto you, but not from midway but my very first reply. That is the very nature of disagreements where 2 parties in conflict attempt to assert that their world view is the superior or correct view and it’s adoption a necessary act. So in that I make no apology because it is not wrong. You yourself, in replying to me attempted to promote your world view as well. For the full length of our debate we argued both your opinion and my own, and we continue to do so to this point. And I appreciate your coolness in continuing the debate, most do not have the constitution for it.

With each new message I get the feeling that this smart person I talked to, isn't as smart as I thought.

Then I hope this is more to your liking, and I thank you for considering me smart at any point. This post took me 6 steady hours to write in response to yours, and I hope that it will be validated with an equal level of thought and consideration.