"Harem" description

[Gauvain]

Please correct your "Harem" and "Reverse Harem" tag description
It makes no sense to write "A harem includes three or more characters who potentially show romantic interest in a male protagonist. ...."
Why three ? it doesn't make sense
It's two.
(besides there is no description for "Reverse Harem" tag)


PS : I think that other tags would deserve a rereading, "smut" for example the definition in French seems fairer to me
"Synonyme de l’abréviation « PWP ? » (Plot, What plot ?), Smut signifie que le seul but de l’histoire qui porte cette dénomination est la mise en place de scènes érotiques : le scénario et l’intrigue sont totalement optionnels dans ce genre de créations. Encore plus poussé que lime et lemon, qui peuvent assurer une histoire, les fanfictions smut ne sont là que pour satisfaire les yeux du lecteur ..."

""Synonymous with the abbreviation" PWP? "(Plot, What plot?), Smut means that the only goal of the story that bears this name is the establishment of erotic scenes: the scenario and the plot are completely optional in this kind of creations. Even more advanced than lime and lemon, which can assure a story, smut fanfictions are only there to satisfy the reader's eyes ... " "

I don't know if you think like me that it matters, but personally I think the meaning of words is important, especially when it only applies to our world of reading

Thank you in advance.

 

[Granitefish]

If Harem was changed to 2 then just about every romance would be changed to Harem. It's a staple of the Romance genre for there to be a 3rd party that is also interested in the MC. And there is common term for the scenario of 2 people liking one person, it's a Love Triangle, not Harem.

If we really wanted to go into a more accurate view of the term, a Harem would only be used for scenarios where there are multiple women in a wife/concubine relationship with the Character. Not something as shallow as being interested in them.

 

[Gauvain]

@Granitefish
"A love triangle (also called a romantic love triangle or a romance triangle or an eternal triangle) is usually a romantic relationship involving three or more people. While it can refer to two people independently romantically linked with a third, it usually implies that each of the three people has some kind of relationship to the other two. " wikipedia
if i use this definition of "love triangle" harem would really have no reason to be


"love triangle" and "love polygon" have a real definition and a real existence in classical literature
"harem" and "reverse harem" don't have a real existence or an official definition
It is just an invention in Japanese literature and moreover at no time is it written "3 people minimum" in these unofficial definitions.
I do not see why an unofficial definition should be changed, because it encroaches on the ground of an official definition.
Especially that a "love triangle" and a harem does not apply to the same thing, a "love triangle" seeks the exclusivity of the partner, a "harem" accepts sharing or have no choice (family, love, threat, charisma, protection, ..)
in addition in a "love triangle" the partners are not always aware

Give me a good reason why a harem does not exist with only two partners and I will use it the day one of my women learns that I was married to another woman, it will be useful for my defense the day of my divorce

Frankly i don't understand why these definitions should change each other when it's not the same thing
but know that I asked the same question to animeplanet and that I had the same answer as yours.

 

[Gauvain]

@Granitefish
we could take the problem the other way.


Definition of a bus: a bus is public transport, with 1 to 52 seats.
definition of a school bus: a school bus is a public transport to go to school, with 2 to 52 seats.
Why 2 to 52 places, while the other bus is 1 to 52?
Because there is already a definition for a bus!
it's the same logic as for "love triangle" and "harem"...

in short, words have definitions if we start to modify definitions, because other words have similar meanings, words will no longer mean anything

 

[Granitefish]

Harem does have a real existence and official definition,
"the women occupying a harem; the wives (or concubines) of a polygamous man.
a group of female animals sharing a single mate."

This is where the term has been derived from, it is not the definition used in manga though. If it was then yes it would refer to 2 or more, but it also wouldn't be referring to romantic interests, but wives and sexual partners. Additionally it isn't used in Japanese literature to refer to only sharing, but any situation where many girls are romantically interested in a character.

As the one asserting that it should be 2 or more, and the one to bring up specifically Japanese Literature regarding the definition, please refer to a few Japanese literatures that uses Harem for only two characters who potentially show romantic interest in a male protagonist. Outside of the times it is used for the official definition.

If you wish for it to be more in line with your belief of the definition you should be asking for a complete rewrite of the definition not just the number change. As the definition used in manga does not refer to polygamous relationships, but love interests in general. I do believe that on the base Real World definition it would not be limited to 3 or more, but the Japanese Use of it doesn't match the real world definition.

 

[Gauvain]

@Granitefish

"it is not the definition used in manga though"
Besides, the number two is written in the harem definition you just wrote "polygamous man" that means "at least two".
and that doesn’t mean marriage, because the concubine is not married, a man can have a wife and several concubine and it will still be a harem
or just concubines while waiting to have an official wife.

You have to use the real definition and you will see that it really has nothing to do with that of manga
"Harem (Arabic: حريم‎ ḥarīm, "a sacred inviolable place; harem; female members of the family"), properly refers to domestic spaces that are reserved for the women of the house in a Muslim family. This private space has been traditionally understood as serving the purposes of maintaining the modesty, privilege, and protection of women. A harem may house a man's wife — or wives and concubines, as in royal harems of the past — their pre-pubescent male children, unmarried daughters, female domestic workers, and other unmarried female relatives."


You talk about the Japanese definition as if there was one
and as if in addition it was written 3, yet I have never seen 3, I have always seen the word "multiple" "many" "several"

https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%8F%E3%83%BC%E3%83%AC%E3%83%A0%E3%82%82%E3%81%AE
https://ciatr.jp/topics/114660

 

[MrIncognito]

Well, let's put it this way:

A series with one love interest and one secondary/rival tends to be wildly tonally different to one with three or more love interests to the same character. Generally, if you're going to be searching the harem tag, you're looking for something with the tone of the latter.

In this case, we're not using tags as a pedantic definition of a series, but as an indicator of what to expect within.

 

[BzzBzz]

> I have never seen 3, I have always seen the word "multiple" "many" "several"

Maybe check definition of these words then?

several - determiner & pronoun

* More than two but not many.

What's more than 2? Isn't that 3?

 

[shogun01]

OP, that is not the definition of "love triangle". Anyone can easily edit a Wikipedia page and skewer information. I always go to dictionary sites to get proper definitions.

"Love Triangle - A situation in which two people both love a third person:" - Cambridge Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/love-triangle

 

[AAA1]

I too don't get why >= 3 is a must. If we could change the term to "a group of females that serving to one ml with some kind agreement to their bondary". As to my example story like "an ml, a legal wife/girlfriend, and their girl-servant" if they have distinct bondary can be validated to called it harem, i think?

Romance may/may not included in because an agreement can be forced ignoring one feeling.

Love triangle doesn't need a tag because it happened in mostly all of the story that have romance story depicted in them, for a spice. And i think everyone know love triangle doesn't have a bondary of agreement to the subjects.

What do you think? @Gauvain

 

[AAA1]

@AbyssalMonkey there is a bondary in them. Bokuben is the group of student that taught by nariyuki. They agree to not hate each other because they are friends. This obviously a harem and the rest is too.

My example just shown the one who most unlikely harem but still can called harem because there is plot that can bond them despite an attached fact.

Oh yes. There is yuri and yaoi harem too. I don't considering it. So what the differences in reverse harem? Hmm..

My point is like OP saying, why is >2 is a must?

 

[MrIncognito]

@AAA1

Well, let's put it this way:

A series with one love interest and one secondary/rival tends to be wildly tonally different to one with three or more love interests to the same character. Generally, if you're going to be searching the harem tag, you're looking for something with the tone of the latter.

In this case, we're not using tags as a pedantic definition of a series, but as an indicator of what to expect within.

 

[AAA1]

I don't actually want to continue this discussion as i think this is pointless if there is reasoning is "more convenient for it to be expected". To be expected based on what actually? Just because it's popular justification doesn't hold enough proper validification that everyone think the same. Take this title for comparison "aho girl" and "kanojo mo kanojo".

"Aho girl" a bit hard to explain. You could took out the big breast stalker girl from the harem term as it could be considered a simple love rival but in a few occasion could included in harem because her determination to wanted to gained a favor by the guy, she compromised. But the flat-chested girl can included in harem because there is a plot that makes her the potential interest. Because the unstable situation in plot or "it has to be 3", the harem definition got scraped off. Well, to me, it still a harem though despite the end result.

And "kanojo mo kanojo" is more simple because it just published recently. What other definition to called them other than "a harem of his"? Of course it is a romance. But it got acknowledged that a harem with romance is optional

For this term to be actually must have minimal 3 is still vague, doesn't it?

 

[Gauvain]

@BzzBzz
Several
"being more than two but fewer than many in number or kind:"
"more than one"
"Law. binding two or more persons who may be sued separately on a common obligation."
like what, even in a language a word can have another definition use in specific cases

These are words that I read on Japanese sites (the first few sites using "ハ ー レ ム も の"), so the translation may not be perfect because it's google that translates
Besides the word several come from wikipedia which as say in another comment is not the most reliable source especially in the case of a definition which has nothing official and therefore has no official source to rely on.

I took the sentence of the text in question and I put it in google translate and just removed a few words before or after and the word "several" become "multiple" several times (and especially surprisingly get closer to the original word, the word "several" no longer appears), or even "plural".

I wrote "several times" in the previous sentence however the word I had chosen in my language is "plusieurs" which means "indicates an unspecified number (but at least equal to two) of beings or objects"

 

[Gauvain]

@AAA1
I think it's as long as we follow the logic that a "normal" couple is two people together, the moment when they become different is when one more person appears.



Besides the more I look at the definition of the historical origin of the word "harem" the more I tell myself that the use in Japanese literature makes sense, even in the most "childish" story

"Harem (Arabic: حريم‎ ḥarīm, "a sacred inviolable place; harem; female members of the family"), properly refers to domestic spaces that are reserved for the women of the house in a Muslim family. This private space has been traditionally understood as serving the purposes of maintaining the modesty, privilege, and protection of women. A harem may house a man's wife — or wives and concubines, as in royal harems of the past — their pre-pubescent male children, unmarried daughters, female domestic workers, and other unmarried female relatives. "

There are stories without any sexual relation or even real romance and the tag "harem" is used (it is surely to reach a wider audience that there is nothing sexual and no romance displayed), but in the end in all these stories (even the others) the MC serves to maintain the modesty, privilege and protection of the women around him
so he could be the "human" definition of this place

 

[Gauvain]

@shogun01
It does not change the fact that a definition is not a reason to modify another definition, because this other definition includes similar characteristics.

 

[AAA1]

@Gauvain i agree with you. That should be the most appropriate term. It's distinct to the other term and can be optionable to combine