Harem deserves to be a genre. Change my mind.

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

(Background)

Spoiler

While surfing through this magnificent manga that has all the tags attached to it, I realized that "harem" and "reverse-harem" are placed in the theme category and not genre.

I instantly knew that this would make a great debate material.

This is my third attempt to make 'Change my Mind' threads a trend. Also, I'm not gonna snap half the universe into a thread like I did last time.

The otaku community contains a variety of things that western media lacks: isekai, body pillows, _{superior 2D oppai} and even harem. Harem is such where a central, male protagonist is surrounded by attractive female characters who are interested in him; cases where the gender roles are reversed are known as "reverse-harem". Wouldn't you agree that "harem" and "reverse-harem" should be classified as genres and not themes?

(I have done my research with the usual websites)

Spoiler

I used 5-Toubon as my keyword while researching about harem series.

I also discovered that most anime/manga sites would often be divided into two groups.

Those that explicitly states their genres:
-MAL
-Manga Updates
-Anisearch
-Mangahere
-Mangakalot

And those that merges everything into "tags":
-Livechart
-Anime Planet
-Kitsu
-AniDB
-Mangarock

The rest are basically the odd one out.
-Anilist (uses "romance" in genre list and "harem" in tag list)

However, I have not found any that explicitly states that "harem" is a "theme" like MangaDex.

Conclusion: half agree that harem is a genre, the remaining are inconclusive, but none explicitly states that harem is a theme; making MangaDex the odd one out as well.

(definition of theme and genre, and harem)

Spoiler

Obtaining definitions from google as usual,

Genre
"a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter."

Theme
"the subject of a talk, a piece of writing, a person's thoughts, or an exhibition; a topic."

And here is MD's definition of "harem"
"A harem includes three or more characters who potentially show romantic interest in a male protagonist. The sex, gender, or orientation of the harem members is irrelevant as long as they exclusively, or at least primarily, are vying for the affections of the same individual - who may or may not reciprocate towards one, several, or none of these romantic rivals."

I would argue that the repetitive nature of harem mangas using the same concept of "tons of girls like one generic dude" is a better fit for "genre" rather than "theme". Yes, harem mangas share a similarity in its concept. No, harem mangas do not feature its premise as a subject of its writing.

If the same logic of "harem is a theme" applies to everything else then shoujo-ai should be a theme of romance rather than its own genre. This is but one of many examples that I will write later in case anyone argues about this.

(Rules)

Spoiler

1. Every reply that is directed to oppose my original idea must be replied with the intent of opposing that reply.
2. Any reply that is just meant as a comment or what I dismiss as opinion does not have to be responded.
3. Try to keep the values of facts true by avoiding cherrypicking examples as well as not polluting said facts with opinions. Use an outside, credible source if you have to.
4.1. If someone has successfully changed part of my opinion, I must strikethrough the changed opinion in this first post and state the change right after the strikethrough.
4.2. If at least 50% of the participants, excluding myself, plus one person consider said opinion change to be major enough that it qualifies as "I have changed my mind", then I will surrender and "admit defeat". Basically, democracy to decide wether I have been fully or only partially defeated.
5. Any edits must be noted in the edit log, even minor ones.

(Opinion changes log)

Spoiler

-Still none. Try harder.

(Edit log)

Spoiler

-Fixed formatting, wording errors

 

[Capt_Gigglepants]

first of all, You are looking at the wrong western media. There are hundreds of books that contain harems, monster-girl harems are really popular right now in western novels.

Second, "Harem" cant be a genre because you cant have a story be just "Harem". Genre describes the type of story it is, Romance means you get a love story, Sci-fi means you are getting a story based of fictional science, ect... Any story genre can have a harem, but you cant have a harem story without any other kind of genre.

My favorite harem novel, also my 2nd favorite isekai: https://www.audible.com/pd/Tamer-King-of-Dinosaurs-Audiobook/B079FCVYF7?qid=1546522785&sr=sr_1_4&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_4&pf_rd_p=e81b7c27-6880-467a-b5a7-13cef5d729fe&pf_rd_r=33RQ987Y7E7CX74QNB1Y&

 

[Hoanghoiham]

Well, at least Dandan didn't tag literally half the forum users here...

Now, when I studied comtemporary literature, the theme is defined as basically "what the work is about". It's the central point of the work, what the creator of the work wanted to talk about, and what the audiences get out of the work.

The genre, on the other hand, is more about whatever is in the work, or occupies a large proportion of the book. a genre should be a characteristic feature of a work that are similar to other works within the same genre.

There are mangas that revolve around one-to-many romantic relationships such as Dandan's beloved 5toubun, the cult-classic Nisekoi, or my personal favorite Kyou no Cerberus. In each of those examples, the "harem" relationship is the focal point of the story, the central content that the author wishes to deliver, and thus harem is a theme. Whatever surrounding element such as jokes, actions, dramas, or sensual imagey all served to convey the general "harem" theme.

On the other hand, there are also mangas that includes harem content, but these inclusions are not the central point of the stories. A good example off the top of my mind would be Death Match Isekai something something. To be quite honest, I believe the piece is absolute shit, but otherwise I would categorize it as "adventure" theme, and "action, harem, fantasy, adventure" genre: the entire story focus on the protag's adventure, and all other elements such as saving slave lolis, buying princess girls, fighting dragons, dealing with corrupt politicians etc. are all just adding to the central "adventure" narrative. I would not consider the focal point of that excuse of a trash manga "harem" the same way 5toubun's or nisekoi's is.

Obviously, something can be both a genre and a theme. Naruto could have both an action theme (centralized around fighting) and an action genre (have fighting element), as well as fantasy genre, tragedy genre, and romance genre. Some classic shit like Romeo and Julliet could have a romance theme (focus on the love relationship of two characters) and a romance genre (feature typical romantic elements) beside being in the action, drama, and tragedy genre. Any third-rate, one-digit-percentage-on-rotten-tomatoes horror movie would have an "horror" theme (the entire work revolves around terror, fear, and death) while being categorized as "action, horror, supernatural, gore" genre.

In conclusion, harem can both be a theme (focal point of story) and a genre (similar characteristics of many stories). There is absolutely no reason why something can be a theme and not be a genre.

Edit: if someone is interested in the in-depth literature aspect of theme, genre, motif, plot, and other shits, I recommend the book Fiction: reading, reacting, writing by Laura something something. Literature for Composition by some dude whose name I can't remember is also nice reading material. It's 1am in Aus now so my brain is barely functioning, I wil sleep and probably could not be bothered to answer to anything tomorrow, so bye...

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Capt_Gigglepants

first of all, You are looking at the wrong western media. There are hundreds of books that contain harems, monster-girl harems are really popular right now in western novels.

Yes but they are not labeled as harems, do they? They are a different community with different genre labels.

For an example, let's take Alice in Wonderland. By the definition of isekai, is that novel an isekai? Yes. Do any experts from the western community label it as a novel from the isekai genre? I highly doubt it.

Another example, Slime Tensei. Is that isekai? Yes. Any experts from the otaku community labeling it as such? Yes.

This just shows the boundary between western and otaku.

Second, "Harem" cant be a genre because you cant have a story be just "Harem". Genre describes the type of story it is, Romance means you get a love story, Sci-fi means you are getting a story based of fictional science, ect... Any story genre can have a harem, but you cant have a harem story without any other kind of genre.

You are forgetting that you can mix genres.

A western example: Happy Death Day. It is an American movie which comes from the horror-comedy genres.

An otaku example: Darling in the Franxx. It's a combination sci-fi, romance, and drama, wouldn't you agree?

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

@Hoanghoiham Interesting argument, indeed.

The point of your argument is to blur the lines between a theme and a genre in order to essentially disprove my argument.

But I digress.

MD's tagging system has no room for blurry lines for something is either a theme or a genre. Your argument simply doesn't hold up much weight. But. I have not disproved your argument and a short reply is no fun, is it? Here we go.

Now, when I studied contemporary literature, the theme is defined as basically "what the work is about". It's the central point of the work, what the creator of the work wanted to talk about, and what the audiences get out of the work.

The genre, on the other hand, is more about whatever is in the work, or occupies a large proportion of the book. a genre should be a characteristic feature of a work that are similar to other works within the same genre.

As you have experience to back up your definitions, we will use yours instead of Google's for this argument.

There are mangas that revolve around one-to-many romantic relationships such as Dandan's beloved 5toubun, the cult-classic Nisekoi, or my personal favorite Kyou no Cerberus. In each of those examples, the "harem" relationship is the focal point of the story, the central content that the author wishes to deliver, and thus harem is a theme. Whatever surrounding element such as jokes, actions, dramas, or sensual imagery all served to convey the general "harem" theme.

However, you could argue as well that each example share a common trope of "lots of girls like a dude". The MC and girls in each of their series are also featured in most of their respective stories doing normal harem stuffs. According to your definitions, this would classify the "harem" trope of each series as a genre rather than a theme, wouldn't it?

UNFINISHED

 

[Teasday]

_{@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN posted:}

However, I have not found any that explicitly states that "harem" is a "theme" like MangaDex.

I'm going to guess that's because we're among the few (the only one?) that happened to pick that term, so the comparison is kind of moot. The main reason to divide our "story element" tags to genres and themes is to use grouping to make them a bit easier to look for in the full list, not to act as authoritative sources of information of what genres and themes a manga employs, or what those terms are. We don't even really use the term theme correctly in the literary sense, it just happened to be a close enough umbrella term to act as a group header. We might've just as well used something like "minor genres" or whatever.

Anyway, there's no reason to get hung up on this. Just as a reminder, while you're welcome to argue over which term belongs under which subgroup, we're not going to be switching them around willy-nilly after we've already decided where they go. Consistency is more important than some people's OCD, so if these threads are intended to effect change, they're frankly pretty pointless.

_{@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN posted:}

MD's tagging system has no room for blurry lines for something is either a theme or a genre.

Well, I mean, it's mostly just based on my opinion lol

 

[Capt_Gigglepants]

Yes but they are not labeled as harems, do they? They are a different community with different genre labels.

no, they are most definetly labeled as harems, this is in the synopsis of several of the books:
Disclaimer: This audiobook has ravaging dinosaurs, a lot of cursing, extreme violence, and a harem of exotic alien women.
Warning: This novel contains over-the-top action, undefined relationships/harem, monsters, succubae, mythic creatures, and a hero who is as tactful as a bull in a china shop. Listen at your own risk. Contains adult content. Seriously.
Warning and minor spoilers: The Five Trials is a book intended for mature listeners age 18 years and older. It contains graphic sex, medieval violence, and nudity. People curse, piss their pants, hack off heads, get a little dizzy and tortured, seduce each other, try to seduce each other, and get scared witless by horrors from the darkest dimensions. Most importantly, you'll meet gorgeous, powerful women, some capable for hurling lightning, others of swinging battle-axes, and one that's Noah's unrequited crush from high school. All of them are willing to enter unconventional, polyamorous harem relationships if it means saving the universe, and luckily for Noah, this time it actually does.

that's just a few examples.

You are forgetting that you can mix genres.

I am not forgetting, that was my point. a story can have multiple genres, yes. But all currently recognized genres can stand alone. A story can be just Sci-fi, Just Action, Just Comedy. But "Harem" is not something that a story be the only thing about. You cannot have a story only labeled as "Harem"

 

[Sleeper]

I'm late to the party (yet again; I saw I was summoned for that BL/Ya : GL/Yu discussion, but I initially thought the notification was for the sci-fi discussion, so I didn't check it until about four days later), but I'll say that my reply to this topic skews along the lines of what @Capt_Gigglepants said: a "theme" doesn't need to stand on its own, because in essence, a theme is like a coat of paint which goes over the "genre"--that is, the substance over which the theme is laid; by that simile, a genre has to be able to stand alone.

While the concept of 'harem' can be the main focus of a story, that doesn't determine the story's genre. This is because genre can, arguably, be considered the 'descriptor' for the plot. It may sound like I'm splitting hairs here, but bear with me.

Let's take sci-fi, something that's been definitively accepted as a genre, as an example. In a science fiction story, before you even open to the first page, you are of the understanding that the content is going to involve--wait for it--fictional science. Whether it be improbable expansions on currently existing technology, concepts that don't abide by our current understanding of physics, or something altogether different that still falls under the umbrella of scientific knowledge, we go in knowing that the plot will develop with the dependency that fictional science is what moves it forward. To homebrew an example:

"In the future, mankind has developed the technology to integrate powerful transformative machinery into the human body. As a result, enlisted soldiers, now dubbed 'war machines', are fielded not in armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands, but in small units of no more than a dozen; these war machines individually carry the destructive force of a small army unto themselves, obviating the need for bigger detachments. Caught in the middle of an on-going war, an ordinary civilian OL wakes up with no memory of her actions the night prior, but finds that she's been installed with cutting edge combat technology, and is now on the run from operatives of either force who are determined to use her for their own ends!"

We now know what the plot is, and have a vague idea of how it is going to progress.

'Harem', as a standalone term, doesn't have that same descriptive force. Because by saying a story is a "Harem story", all we know is that a harem is a main feature of the story. But how does that story progress if it's forced to rely solely on the idea that it's a harem story? If the story is about how our MC developed their harem, that can be covered by 'Romance', 'Comedy', 'Drama', etc. If the story is about the MC rescuing their harem, that's covered by 'Adventure', 'Sci-Fi', or so on, depending on the setting. Even if the story is solely about the protagonist's life with their harem, 'Slice-of-Life' has you covered. So even if there was a logical reason (which, currently, I can't conceive of) for why 'harem' should be considered a genre, there's no real need for it because there are other descriptors that handle the subject matter better. As such, 'harem' is better served as a theme, as opposed to a genre, both in general, and for MangaDex in specific.

Sorry this isn't as cleanly formatted as my previous attempt at these debate threads; I'm pounding this out while on my lunch break at work. I'll probably look over the other responses more thoroughly and clean this up a little when I'm home. Still, thanks for your time!

 

[Hoanghoiham]

@DANDAN_THE_DANDAN

I feel like I was a bit misunderstood. There is a very clear line between a theme and a genre. A theme is something specific and intrinsic to a work, and to that work only. A genre is a category that encloses many works with the same content, part of content, or characteristic.

The point is, just because the "harem" theme exist doesn't mean that the "harem" genre cannot exist, and vice versa.

A theme of a work should depend only on the work and nothing else: a poem by E.A.Poe would have the "Death" theme regardless of other poems of his or other books and poems with "death" theme / horror theme, etc. Likewise, a manga published in 2001 focused on 1-to-many romance relationship would have the "harem" theme, regardless of whether if thousands of manga, LN, and anime published later also have this harem theme.

Now, if there is a clearly large number of works with the harem theme, it is entirely possible to create category that includes all these works plus works that may include harem elements but not harem theme, and label it "harem genre" - or to be technical, the "harem sub-genre" within the "romance genre". Just because this new harem genre exist would not mean that all the manga that are previously focused on harem relationship had suddenly changed or lost there focus, nor did the fact that a manga can be seen as being mainly about a harem relationship not qualified as a manga in the harem genre.

So, by the end of the day, here is my suggestion:

- Harem theme, harem (sub)genre: manga and anime that features a harem relationship and focus mainly on this relationship, with other elements like action, comedy, drama, horror, etc. revolving around said relationship or related to said relationship

- Harem theme, not in harem genre: no manga like this exist. If something is themed around harem, it should automatically be in the harem genre.

- Not harem theme, harem (sub)genre: manga that includes harem relationship, but the harem is not the main feature of the story. The theme could be entirely something else such as sexual comedy (Seitokai Yakuindomo), self-insert adventure (Death March), or cooking / gourmet (Shokugeki no Souma).

Also, to be honest, I feel like the "theme" tag in Mangadex and many other places should rather be referred to as "setting" - a stereotypical context in which events take place and the narrative progress. It is somewhat different from the literature study's "theme" as in "thematic concept / statement" - point of focus of the entire work.

 

[The_Look_Of_Disapproval]

does it really matter? if its genre or not?

I mean harem being put in theme doesn't really changes how you read manga, nor does it changes how the website works.... so this thread feels really stupid

 

[DANDAN_THE_DANDAN]

Guys, give me a moment to finish my replies... wasn't expecting all these replies so soon... I have final exams coming up... I haven't slept... it's already 6:41 am... what am I doing...

@Teasday Don't worry, I only debate for fun and picked whatever topic that comes by.

 

[firelight]

For manga like 5Toubun no Hanayome, it would be a genre.
For manga like Overlord, it would be a theme.
Right?

 

[Tiipo]

Ok lets go back a bit you guys define genre and theme then compare the difference and then talk about what is what and where is where
PS- I skipped like the whole thread because I’m too lazy to real all of it (The whole thread is like a light novel due ti the sheer amount of words), so apologies if this has been discussed for I am bored and I just bored and as usual I don’t want to join thr arguement because I suck at them