In Another World, I'm Called: the Black Healer - Vol. 6 Ch. 42

[Flupser]

@givemersspls I totally agree with you that those are two totally different issues here cause killing is something pretty normal in this world and time but thats what i meant with having a different mindset most of them have no qualms with taking anothers life , they might have their reasons but its a lot easier for them. But Noche is on another level, he totally went over the top but the reason he is like that is probably because he doesnt value humans much given his position and his raison d'etre and i think thats where the problem lies.

Well she is naive and young, im not perfect either but that also means growing up^^

 

[exile650]

great reene faces this chapter.

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
"The are also definitions on what it means to be alive, what it means to be a person, what it means to be etc., etc. We start from those definitions, definitions that are inherent in those words, and then build a foundation from there. If we are all humans, for example, then we all have certain basic capacities. This is the constructivism viewpoint."
Then what is it to be human? What are those basic capacities? If it's determined by some part of a functioning brain, does someone born with microcephaly not count as being human? What gives a human life inherent value?

Going further, how do you later apply this to a world where one being can annihilate everyone else on the planet at any given point should he so chose? With 0 repercussions.

 

[Kaarme]

@nachtness In that world there's no end to people who can kill a person or a bunch with the smallest of effort, yet there are preciously few people who can heal a severely sick or wounded person. So, looking at their power levels from the perspective of destructiveness is meaningless in Reene's case. Her value is elsewhere and is vastly superior.

 

[Banarok]

@givemersspls but what Chrona says is true in the fact there is nothing universal, for example the caste system in India while it's more subdued now then it was before it basically meant that people below a certain tier was worthless, even repulsive. they were not worth your time so if they died they would not have given a shit.

the only truth is that people judge from their own position, if you have absolute power and nobody can stop you you'll probably be forever a "child" since nobody can admonish or cause you enough issues so you have to reevaluate your world view, everything will be black or white.

Most people only care about things that concern them, for example if i say there's a thousand dead in Northern Mali, most people would say they've never heard of it, but the conflict in Syria most people know about because the immigrants are extensive and cause issues for everyone.

Also not everyone is human in that world hence they can't be upheld to our standards, just as we can't be to theirs there have to be a understanding, and in this case the understanding is "the demon lord is scary as all hell, just do as he says since otherwise he can destroy us" and most people are "okey" with that since otherwise their entire world will basically burn.

also as chrona says, a legal system only exist because it can be enforced we have no laws about god killing people because there is no way we can enforce that law, if the riders of the apocalypse suddenly started destroying cities we would not condemn them as criminals and make them serve jail time.

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
"What right does he have to kill them if they don't affect him?" He doesn't need a right. Rights do not exist without enforcement, as I said earlier. In fact, with him as the highest function of force in this fantasy world, he literally chooses who gets to live or die as he is the highest actor of force. If he says that someone should die because they slapped his soulmate, that person will die. If he says that an entire castle related to that one person should be killed, they should be killed. Nothing can stop him but him. You can whine all day about "good is good no matter what everyone else is doing" and that's completely true. What's no true is that "rights are rights no matter what governing body is at work". Humans have no right not to be killed at whim by Noche because literally nothing can stop Noche. In fact, the opposite is true, Noche must be stopped by a soulmate or he will in fact, annihilate all of life let alone humanity on the planet. You are conflating "rights" a legal concept, with morality. I can tell by your earlier post that you don't believe there is a difference between death penalty and murder, and that you find it morally wrong of Japan to have a death penalty. This poignantly points how your conflating of two concepts. You can say that all of humanity should have certain rights, but without enforcement, they don't. Yet in Japan, it is legal to take back the right to life should that person inflict crimes worthy of it's removal.

There does not exist a single human right that inherently exists in and of itself in the vacuum of the ability to enforce it. Hell, Noche is the perfect example of this as he might as well be an alien for all of humanity's sake. Why should an alien inherently view human's as having rights to not be dead? Do animals have the right to not be killed and eaten? Plants? Microbes? Why are you projecting human values on a distinctly non-human entity?

 

[Redice]

@givemersspls
"So? Give a reason as to why he should be allowed to annihilate everyone."
The same reason China is allowed to claim a whole sea just by saying "we found ancient map".

 

[nachtness]

@Kaarme

cool, thanks captain

 

[Banarok]

@givemersspls what people SHOULD do & think is not for you to decide, that fascism, if i think everyone should kill anyone over 60 for fun & because they are relics of the past it's my belief you might think it's horrible but that is your belief, you can try to persuade me that I'm wrong but why should i listen to you?, you must have something that makes me care about what you think one way or another, either if i'm feeling oppressed it can be by offering safety, or if you're stronger then me you can threaten to beat me unless i do as you say, but if i'm the one with a army at my back i don't need to answer to you and i can do whatever i want and you can't stop me this is where the "might makes right" comes from.

if i now also manage to persuade the majority that this action is good, then you trying to stop it would that not be wrong, since the majority agree with me?.

now this example i'm a total psychopath to paint the most horrible example possible, but what we're saying is that there is no universal right, what you think should be a universal right is not a universe standard, an you can't tell people what is right and what is wrong since those things are not OBJECTIVE they are SUBJECTIVE meaning that everyone have their own opinions on what is good hence this "universal right" is impossible to enforce. you can tell people what you THINK is right and wrong but it's your opinions not fact of life.

for example in this chapter she thinks they are innocents, but Noche might see them as accomplices since if they stopped the king this would never have happened enabling by passivity, just like if a gang of 10 people kicks down your door one of the gang members shoot someone you care about the others basically just stand around while one or two do the work, would you think just the one that shot your person responsible for the entire incident and the others standing around armed are completely innocent?

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
"Yeah, he still needs a right to intrude into the literal lives of other people. "
No he fucking doesn't. What planet do you live on where humans for millennia did not kill and murder each other on a daily basis for food and territory and only very, very recently did they start putting funny scratches on pieces of wood and rock that became "words" leading to "reason" and "morality"? Abstract concepts of morality will always be just that, abstract, until put into practicality. Might is right never stopped being correct, what is most mighty changed from being a very big man with a stick to being the governing body of a nation instead. If you want it in the most simple terms possible.
Might makes right.
Whoever is the largest actor of force decides all rights.
Noche is the largest actor of force.
He has decided all the humans in the castle have lost the reason to live due to being associated with the king.
"Why should we do what they say?"
Why shouldn't you murder? Because the state will imprison you or execute you. Why shouldn't you steal? Because the state will fine or imprison you. Why shouldn't you rape? Because the state will fine or imprison you. Imprisonment, execution, fines (which if unpaid result in imprisonment). Are all acts of violence that are legal because the state makes it legal in order for society to function. The state has the right to execute someone because they murdered someone else. Why? Because they have the power to enforce it. You assume a position of humanity being inherently good, which is your basic misunderstanding. Humanity is not basically good, it's basically cruel and animalistic, and is only shepherded into civilized behavior by force and tradition.
"On the issue of Noche being alien/outside of humanity's realm, no. He clearly acts similar enough to humans that the same general rules apply. The author has not portrayed Noche as having completely different ways of thinking, so the same things apply."
The entirety of this fucking chapter was literally explaining the difference in thought and actions between demonfolks and humans as far as relationships; and again, he will literally go insane and murder the entire planet if he does not find his soulmate. He does not function, think or act human. By your biological standards you mentioned earlier, his DNA is not human,and he is not human. This is why I asked if human rights are measured by intelligence. If so, similar intelligence races can have comparable rights. The demonfolks and humans might find common grounds, but then some humans and some demonfolk aren't intelligent, do they stop having rights?
"What justifies Noche going out of his way to kill people? Because he's powerful? Again, that's all that you say."
Because they were related to the guy who slapped his soulmate. Why is that not okay? Because Noche can enforce that. Noche is the governing body. You don't need pretty words when you can punish anyone you want at anytime for any reason. You become the law the judges everything that exists on the face of the planet that instant and people can disagree and do literally nothing about it.

He already gave his explanation, the king slapped his soulmate, they should all die because they are generally related to that king. No one can stop Noche from doing this. No one can punish Noche for doing this. If Noche can kill anyone on the face of the planet at anytime and no one can stop him, do they have the right to live? by who? Who will punish Noche for violating this "right"?

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
"Is it fascist for a parent to tell their four year old child what they should do? If you say yes, you're wrong."
It's an act of force if the parent grounds, spanks or punishes the child for not listening. What if the child is told something is wrong and doesn't listen? Do the parents just throw their hands up in the air and give up?
"Is it fascist if I tell people not to kill innocents? If you say yes, you're fucked up."
It's not fascist unless you become the actor of force that stops the person from killing innocents. You can preach from the ivory tower all day that won't create enforceable rights.
"If I say you shouldn't kill innocents because they're innocent, then you should listen to the reason."
Why shouldn't the innocent be killed? Give me a reason.

 

[Odonelle]

First @givermersspls I agree with you, though to be honest I didn't read the whole discussion in details ^^
Now to give my opinion about this :
1/There is clearly innocent who were killed, and had nothing to do and could do nothing to help reene when she was abused (I mean seriously a servant who would try to step up for reene, would have just be killed... and for poor/peasant folks in this sort of fantasy/medieval world they first try to survive)
2/Then to my second point, from the point of view of a human born in this world, clearly what happens with noche destroying the whole castle would have seem inevitable and "normal" (in the sense that for these humans it is common sense that you don't mess with demonfolk, in the same way than a peasant will not mess with nobles unless he wants to see its whole family in deep shit)
3/Now to the last point, reene is not from this world => for her, assuming she is an average girl with an average common sense, it should not seem normal to see a bunch of innocent people being killed, and moreover the fact that she is directly connected to what happens and she was warned by many people about the jealousy/resentment of demon folk. To all that you add the fact that she is not powerless and can call noche anytime to explain/solve the situation

So for me it was just bullshit that in 2/3 pages she agreed whit the argument of the demon girl, and went on with *gigglegiggle*lovestory*gigglegiggle*
P.S. : sorry for the bad grammar, it's late and I'm not a native english speaker

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
Oh I see. Now you're making the mistake of thinking humans are 100% bound by rational behavior. When you say "reason" you want nice flowery discourse about it. He gave his reason. You don't agree with it.

And, AGAIN, you are conflating a "right" which is a legal term with morality.

 

[Banarok]

@givemersspls what i've read on your comment is that you want there to be a universal right, but we're trying to explain that there can't be one due to cultures, and people being different, you try to tell us how we should do things to reach those rights, but that's the thing, you want YOUR rights to be universal, if i think killing everyone should be a right then you think i'm wrong but we ultimately disagree.

also about the fascist comment, i said since you're saying you're right and dictate how we should think and act that is an act of fascism if you're trying to enforce it.

it's even worse in a Fantasy world scenario, what counts as a adult?, when lizardfolk can have children when they are 4 years old, should we give them full rights as people, and since they are dead before they are even close to pension age they make great manual workers, but we can't judge them since they kill someone since they are only 4 years old they are still minors despite being 2 meters tall and built like a barn. should you count as an adult as soon as you reach puberty?, if so will some demonkind that lives for half a eternity be minors for a century?

we can't hold other races to our own standards, for Noche that lives for ages killing a human is such a minor act since for him they are like mayflies, they die before he noticed they even existed, this mayfly annoyed him so he squashed it.

also inaction can be just as bad as action, if you cut yourself and you're bleeding out (pure accident), nobody wants to help you since if they take action they get involved so they think it best just ignore you, is that the world you want to live in? since those people don't know you they might save a mass murder hence just play it safe and do nothing.

those dudes that broke into your house loitering about just one of them took the action to kick down the door and shoot, the rest are just his friends he chat with they don't do very much, they don't care what he's up to since he's their friend but they are passive so they are also completely nice and good people? if you try to attack their friend they will protect him of course but then you've suddenly gotten aggressive and they are just defending themselves & their friend.

we can't have good things simply because all people are not good unless they have to be.

 

[Liquidxlax]

The cute girl talk was nice.

@givemersspls have some level of imagination. Not only do we have to fill in the gaps between panels, imagine, voices, sounds, movements, emotions we also have to fill in the finer points of the world lore. Say knowing how to recognize and identify a problem is a big part of curing something, but also knowing how it starts, grows and eventually kills is another. If a people don't have the ability to know those types of things (cancer seems to be a rare thing in isekai worlds) how could they know how to safely remove it and know if its been fully removed? When you saw Renee curing Milly you should have imagined at least something there. I mean when I saw that I imagined her standing t-pose then cross sectioned to see under her skin, then a mri showing the masses all with regular mana flow until Renee found the tumors. Then she changed it in Milly along with her own to detach the masses, then either modify the genetic code of the cancer cells to flush them out as harmless waste or destroy it with energy in her body.

You can't depend on the story teller to give you every little detail of how every little thing works and how they are all connected. You are supposed to imagine what you want to make the story better for yourself. This isn't something you do for just novels and mangas, but any story in any sort of media.

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
Good you've admitted that a universal right doesn't exist and that you're just abstracting into useless air. That's all I wanted. You think I don't agree innocents shouldn't die? No you dumbass, I think universal rights don't exist, and no one has the right to not die unless some governing body enforces that right.
"If that's me dictating something, then a scientist saying the sun is X degrees hot is being fascist." You're comparing your view on how society should function (subjective) with an observation (objective). You can also use try to use intersubjective out of it's original use, but that means literally nothing except mob rule (whatever most people agree on becomes the rule).

 

[Euphaire]

Whoaa, word "facism" popped up in a manga discussion I read? I wonder how long until the word "Hitler" appear in this discussion.
Edit: damn... On second thought, I was the one who first write the word "Hitler" on this discussion albeit ironically.

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
"If we're talking about the real world, the fact that we are all humans, BY DEFINITION, means a lot." No it doesn't, where in the definition of "we are all humans" does anything specify one human being equal or having equal rights to another? It means nothing unless you too are a human. There's no objective worth to being a human over not-being a human as far as any outside (alien, god, whatever) observer has. Same as humans not judging insects or plants as having rights.

"You miss what intersubjective means in this specific case. "
I miss it because you're trying to invent a new word to not have to fall to the faults of subjectivity (which would invalidate your universal rights) and objectivity (you would have to prove the objectivity or objective source). You are talking about commonality, that means absolutely nothing to anyone who isn't human. Prove to me it isn't mob rule. What conclusions can you draw from "we are all humans" that matters a single bit to murder, rape, theft.

 

[Banarok]

@givemersspls people being people is what i said in my first comment that you said were wrong, if nobody have ever said it's bad to kill people that annoy you then you wont think it's bad to kill people that annoy you, it's a learned moral value, not something that is inherit to humans or acts of violence would never be as common as they are, it's easy to make people think a us versus them scenario.

everyone have their own value, we can't ever reach a universal right because someone will always get the short end of the stick, for example we agree that killing and stealing is bad yes?

now the harvest was bad for almost everyone but the guy planting potatoes, and he have enough potatoes for everyone, but since the others can't pay him due to their own harvests failing, since the potato farmer have no need for help on his farm and generally just want to save his potatoes for a year with a bad harvest since he see how miserable everyone else is and don't want to be in the same position.

should they just starve to death then?
sure this could be solved by the potato farmer giving them "credit" to let them buy his potatoes for future wares, but if he don't trust them to pay up we got issues. and if the universal rules say everyone should have right to a meal, should he then give them the food you think for what he perceives as nothing, basically robbing him
now say the next year is harsh for everyone but especially the potato farmer, the other farmers have no food to spare someone will die from starvation and now it will be the potato farmer since the universal "right" made him share his food even if he didn't really want to. but his death saved everyone else so it's a net positive.

i'm sure the potato farmers extended family that lives on the other side of the country would agree that his sacrifice for the greater good was the best outcome and they would not at all feel angry about people they don't know basically took all his food,

Talking about this makes me depressed.

Talking about things can make us reach a middle ground on select issues, but there are no universal morals that everyone think is good or justifiable, just common ground we find at the moment, but then they must be just that common ground.

Here comes Noche, he never need to compromise with anyone to find that ground, Gaia basically leave him alone and not until now have he had anyone that he think is as important as himself, Noche can by himself stop a Tsunami, Quench a erupting volcano, feed entire cities by rapidly growing flora, so he could save a entire castle worth of people, but why should he ever have done so? he don't care about anyone there, they do whatever he tells them to do they are not equal they are subjects, everyone in the world is basically his subjects so them not stopping the king he might see as betrayal since Noche is basically the very definition of entitlement. if he wants something he can just take it there's no reason for him to ever carry money since nobody around him have ever been important or strong enough to be able to tell him what is "right" so he himself can decide what is "right". he have no moral compass because he have never needed one. since the world only exist in this form because he wants it to does he not own everything on the entire world?

He lacks any kinds of morals he just don't want to piss her off, and wants to be loved if she asked him to kill half the population he'd do it within a heartbeat, and that is why Noche is so feared and by proxy she is too.

 

[Chrona]

@givemersspls
"The ability to consider yourself as one entity alongside other entities subject to morality. "
Thank you for specifying that the mentally retarded are not human. Or, if you're going to screech about it, animals that do not have the ability to self-reflect.
"If we're all equal, then that means that we don't have the right to intrude upon other people. "
How are you abstracting this? Just because two things are equal does not mean they can't intrude on each other.