Isekai de Haishin Katsudou wo Shitara Tairyou no Yandere Shinja wo Umidashite Shimatta Ken - Vol. 1 Ch. 9

[beep_repair]

You keep appealing to Japanese culture as an explanation for the characterization of that mob character. I'm arguing that it's a connection that doesn't make sense-- the protagonist is literally Japanese and doesn't make that argument. It's not even a sentiment that's exclusive to Japan, and there's no reason why it would be exclusive to it.

The protagonist has no family name to risk in the world into which he's been reincarnated. He's also a bit of a "free thinker".

Why are you trying to compare an institution that exists for the express purpose of healing disease that for a time unwittingly spread it, with an institution where the spread of disease isn't antithetical to its nature and is often regarded as a secondary consequence?

Because there are certain similarities between the two. Comparison does not suggest equivalence.

Hospitals, for all their problems, provide substantially greater and more positive value to society than prostitution, and always did.

True. If you read up on Semmelweis, however, you'll find a situation in which physician care in hospitals were a public health harm, relative to midwife care both in and out of hospitals.

We both linked to the same material about human trafficking in the Netherlands-- a country that explicitly legalized and regulates prostitution. You're insisting that regulating it mitigates trafficking (or at least that we haven't proved it doesn't), but not only does the industry there benefit from trafficking from without, trafficking also still takes place from within.

Sure. No one has argued that legalization, licensing and regulation is a panacea guaranteed to eliminate human trafficking.

Your first response option is to compare trafficking statistics before and after its legalization (we'll focus on explicit legalization, since it was the case that they were on-and-off about abiding prostitution for centuries before (until 2000) deciding to not touch it unless it "disturbed the social order"). I can't quite get you that, myself, but I'm not plumb out of evidence to consider: since its proper legalization in 2000, officials have been complaining about the growing violence in the industry, with some attributing it to illegal immigration. Former prostitutes that became Labour Party councilors noted a significant intersection between prostitution and organized crime. The Amsterdam government actually cracked down on brothels because of this; at some point, Amsterdam closed down half its licensed brothels because of suspected criminal activity.

Regulation isn't the same as good, effective and well-targeted regulation. The Netherlands have struggled with this, but so has every institution that's ever tried to regulate anything.

You do bring up a good point, though. This discussion is wholly grounded in opinion, not demonstrable fact. Neither of us is able to prove that we are right, and it's dishonest to pretend otherwise.

Your second response option is to assert without evidence that it "would have been worse" if it was straightforwardly illegal. Meanwhile, it's the case that the legal industry benefits from the actions of the illegal industry-- that, or the existence of the legal industry hasn't obviated the illegal industry, which is why the latter still exists and operates within the country.

As demonstrated, both are true. And to undermine your second response option, longtime prostitutes have argued that the legalization in 2000 made the industry worse, attributing this worsening to foreigner organized criminals figuring that they have a degree of legal cover because of the legalization of the institution. And expecting prostitutes to pay their taxes just made them resort to methods to avoid taxation, so their government doesn't even get to waste their money.

It's because of the former explanation (the legal benefits from the illegal) that I reckoned that the legal industry is effectively a front (however unwitting) for the illegal industry, that in fact confounds efforts to mitigate human sex trafficking while continuing to indirectly justify it through its own continued operation.

That's why they both still exist in that area, and it's why the illegal still operates at a concerning level.

It's true that illegal prostitution continues to exist where prostitution has been legalized, licensed and regulated (LLR). This will likely always be the case. But neither that nor nor anyone's opinion, however seemingly expert, proves that LLR isn't socially beneficial.

The more internationally widespread and well-implemented LLR is, the easier it will become to identify and combat sex trafficking. That's just my opinion, however, and it's not really the point here. I've seen no evidence that LLR makes human trafficking worse, and it provides many other humanitarian benefits (e.g.).

 

[beep_repair]

Now we're at Page 6 and I upgraded to white cheddar popcorn.

Yum.

I am also sure that there are just some who are maintaining it because of sunk cost fallacy.

Guilty.

 

[Bobdillan69]

go back to the Incel forums buddy.

Facts are facts...

Just cause you don't like it doesn't make me an incel... I value people who don't sell themselves or their soul... but hey if you enjoy scraps be my guest.

Someone has to be the mediocre they settle for when they can't get the man they want.

 

[xSauriaNx]

freakin people here be debating about something the author gave a backstory to set-up the more the important thing:

how to make every action made by the girls, stupidly outrageous. And forget said backstories 'cause they really don't matter.

Spoiler: fun fact a.k.a. some spoilers for you so thread with caution

none of what you're debating matters at all. The author specifically doesn't care about it either. Their backstories won't even matter when the Yandere Allianc Haishin Cult becomes a thing later down the road which is like few chapters from now on. The only thing that matters is how far these cray-cray will go to worship MC just to satisfy their squirting desire without actually making the MC notice.

DreadKaiser said:​

want some popcorn?

Definitely. Want me to set-up the BBQ grill? I have some mignon to cook.

MD Staff. Look away. You don't need the headache

 

[Eighty-six]

The protagonist has no family name to risk in the world into which he's been reincarnated.

He conceals his identity in the first place, so that's never been a concern.

Because there are certain similarities between the two. Comparison does not suggest equivalence.

It also doesn't guarantee useful relevance. You did the equivalent of comparing apples to lead. At any rate, Semmelweis' problem was the same kind as Galileo's-- he was on to something and was ultimately vindicated, but he couldn't convince the medical community to overhaul their protocol because his theory wasn't complete. Specifically, it wouldn't be complete until the advancement of germ theory.

Sure. No one has argued that legalization, licensing and regulation is a panacea guaranteed to eliminate human trafficking.

But it doesn't even mitigate it-- in fact, it apparently encourages it. It's not that human trafficking to and in the Netherlands, violence, and gang activity "didn't stop" after its legalization, it's that it palpably increased from that point. As in, they were better off in when there was some sort of stigma but the government presupposed its failure to adequately suppress the industry and therefore opted to turn a blind eye to it as long as they didn't cause too many problems.

Similar issues in the Netherlands exist in Australia's sex industry (where the Daily Telegraph once asserted that illegal brothels in Sydney outnumber the legal by 4:1-- but who even knows-- and where 90% of prostitution in Queensland is done illegally despite prostitution there being legal and regulated), and Argentina's sex industry is intimately tied with its illegal drug and arms trades. Austria, yet another country with legal and regulated prostitution, is used as a transit point for especially sex trafficking. I'm certain that the case is at least similar in any country that legalizes prostitution because of the nature of prostitution, the kind of people that seek such services, and the kind of people who would even want to manage such services-- so name the number of additional examples I have to list before you lose confidence in your "real good legal prostitution hasn't been tried yet"-tier charge.

The prostitutes and pimps aren't paying their taxes-- if they're even called on to do so. You can't wash the stigma away from an industry invariably and significantly supplied by human trafficking, even (however unwittingly) in its legal capacity. The "regulated" legality of prostitution demonstrably never obviates the demand for an illegal alternative-- meaning it's also not promoting public health on account of its lack of industry hegemony. Governments that legalize and regulate not only still end up having their resources tied up in smoking out illegal operations, but also end up having to investigate any intersections between the illegal and legal operations-- instead of just being able to blanket enforce against any and all prostitution. Or, even just turning a blind eye to it while stigmatizing the industry to some degree.

It seems that the best way to prevent sex trafficking is to do what Sweden's doing.

By the way, that HRC article was quintessentially vapid and unserious-- it's no more valuable than the discussion I'm presently having with you, and its charges are similarly undermined by reality.

You guys think this chapter is gonna get the manga axed? Feels like most harem manga don't include prostitutes in the main cast for a reason, as we're seeing in this comment section lol. Tbh still worst girl so far though, just cause like...what's a prostitute gonna do compared to the demon king, a princess, a saintess, and an assassin? Like talk about coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb

A few things:

1) The manga is based on a web novel (or, light novel?) that some editor read through and presumably decided was good enough for a serialized adaptation. Meaning, the web novel (light novel?) was sufficiently popular in the first place, with the prostitute heroine and the sanitization/defense of prostitution. xSauriaNx is correct in that this detail doesn't matter to the rest of the narrative beyond-- I assume-- showcasing another example of the protagonist's comically inordinate influence while simultaneously providing a reason for why this particular character became enamored with the protagonist.

2) We're mostly Americans. Our reactions don't matter one bit to those involved in the creative process for this-- putting aside that anybody involved in that more than likely doesn't know enough English to even have the opportunity to care about our squabbling.

3) Prostitution is a booming industry in Japan despite its technical illegality.

4) This harem isn't conventional-- at best, one of them has a suspicion of the identity of the protagonist, but they're closer to stans idolizing a clandestine figure than proper haremettes.

 

[beep_repair]

He conceals his identity in the first place, so that's never been a concern.

Right, that supports my point. The man speaking about his fiancee is bound by concerns the MC isn't

It also doesn't guarantee useful relevance. You did the equivalent of comparing apples to lead.

Beg to differ.

At any rate, Semmelweis' problem was the same kind as Galileo's-- he was on to something and was ultimately vindicated, but he couldn't convince the medical community to overhaul their protocol because his theory wasn't complete. Specifically, it wouldn't be complete until the advancement of germ theory.

Agreed, but that doesn't counter anything I've said. It's something of a non-sequitur, though not a disagreeable one.

But it doesn't even mitigate it-- in fact, it apparently encourages it. It's not that human trafficking to and in the Netherlands, violence, and gang activity "didn't stop" after its legalization, it's that it palpably increased from that point. As in, they were better off in when there was some sort of stigma but the government presupposed its failure to adequately suppress the industry and therefore opted to turn a blind eye to it as long as they didn't cause too many problems.

There's plenty of evidence to the contrary (e.g. & tip of a vast databerg), and no reason to presume causal relationships where they aren't well supported.

Similar issues in the Netherlands exist in Australia's sex industry (where the Daily Telegraph once asserted that illegal brothels in Sydney outnumber the legal by 4:1-- but who even knows-- and where 90% of prostitution in Queensland is done illegally despite prostitution there being legal and regulated), and Argentina's sex industry is intimately tied with its illegal drug and arms trades. Austria, which legalizes and regulates prostitution, is used as a transit point for especially sex trafficking. I'm certain that the case is at least similar in any country that legalizes prostitution because of the nature of prostitution, the kind of people that seek such services, and the kind of people who would even want to manage such services-- so name the number of additional examples I have to list before you lose confidence in your "real good legal prostitution hasn't been tried yet"-tier charge.

The benefits of LLR are well-documented in the real world. They do not eliminate the harms associated with illegal forms of prostitution and human trafficking in general.

The prostitutes and pimps aren't paying their taxes-- if they're even called on to do so. You can't wash the stigma away from an industry invariably and significantly supplied by human trafficking, even (however unwittingly) in its legal capacity. The "regulated" legality of prostitution demonstrably never obviates the demand for an illegal alternative-- meaning it's also not promoting public health on account of its lack of industry hegemony.

Latter point is a fallacy. Public health is improved by degrees, and it would be absurd to expect LLR to obviate the demand for illegal alternatives (child prostitutes, for example).

By the way, that HRC article was quintessentially vapid and unserious...

It's a simple summary of asserted benefits and harms, not a data-driven attempt to prove the case. But I haven't seen any particularly compelling data from you, either.

[EDIT TO ADD]
So far, in conversing with me, you've linked:

• A Wikipedia article containing nothing with which I would disagree. Of course illegal prostitution and sex trafficking exist in the Netherlands.
• A NYT article highlighting the fact that Amsterdam's laissez-faire approach to legalization has drawn criminals and "sleaze" to its red light district. I agree with the article's implication that Amsterdam's approach was foolish and that close monitoring of the industry is necessary.
• An interesting and obviously well-informed article by Doriam Pels that, to my mind, helpfully points out issues that those drafting LLR policies should bear in mind. <This was quite useful, by the way. Thank you for linking it.
• Another NYT article following on the first, this one pointing out the extent to which Amsterdam's "hands-off" approach to prostitution in its red light district permitted cooption of the industry by criminal gangs.
• A Guardian article containing the anecdotal account of two people. They're charming people, but still...
• An ABC News-via-The Telegraph article that makes an unverifiable claim and suggests a very sensible policy.
• A Sydney Morning Herald article that explicitly criticizes the failure of state government to "take the regulation of brothels seriously".
• A Brisbane Times article pointing out that, "[l]egalising some parts of the industry, while policing illegal forms of prostitution, had not eliminated the existence of and demand for illegal brothels, escort agencies, and street prostitution..." Well of course not.

Those provided for some interesting reading, but I found nothing within them showing that LLR policies offer no social benefit, or that prostitution is best criminalized.
[/EDIT]

...so name the number of additional examples I have to list before you lose confidence in your "real good legal prostitution hasn't been tried yet"-tier charge.

Since you ask so kindly, I'd want to see proof of a verifiably causal relationship between LLR policies in general and measurable social harms worse than those caused by illegal prostitution -- and proof that the claimed benefits of LLR (e.g. reduction of both harm to and harm caused by legal prostitutes) do not actually exist even in small part.

In order to be worth considering, the evidence should not be anecdotal or piecemeal, but rather the cumulative findings of numerous broad & well-designed longitudinal studies that have survived robust peer review over significant time. Or the next best thing...

Shy of that, we're just another pair of arrogant blowhards shaking our massive opinions at one another across the void

 

[nope361]

"Why hello my fellow listeners, how dare you put down le virtuous onlyfans-I mean sex workers! They're just trying to get by! Sex work is noble and virtuous!"
DROPPED

 

[vocalmagic]

I just wanted To talk about "man its really unrealistic that just one man broadcasting his ideas to the world's actually changed people's minds about prostitutes"

But good lord, there's too much Intel rage over women having sex going on here

 

[nope361]

But good lord, there's too much Intel rage over women having sex going on here

I'm so damn angry that 50% of the human population is having sex. Holy shit I'm fuming mad.

 

[Bagged]

Lmao, author is a simp XD

She belongs to the streets, and to the streets she should stay.

It has been and never will be a profession with any honor. If they wanted honor they should have just sold their voice, not their throat XD

edit: damn... all the simps... over a fictional character. Have some standards gentlemen... O wait that requires you to have standards for yourself too.

It's a normal job mate, there's no "honor" there's only being respected as human being. It's not the 1800s

Also stop using terms you don't know the meaning of like "honor" and "simp"

 

[Bagged]

 

[AnonMan88]

"sex work is real work!"
"sex work is a vital profession like any other!"
"if you don't want to marry sex workers, you are a bigot misogynist!"


This chapter was a "current year", liberal feminist twitter activist's fever dream.


Dropped. Don't even @ me, effeminate eunuchs, don't care.

EDIT: I am laughing at all the castrated bugmen ITT

I'm not going to touch most of what you said since others already have. HOWEVER!

This is not an airport; you don't need to announce your departure.

 

[Bobdillan69]

It's a normal job mate, there's no "honor" there's only being respected as human being. It's not the 1800s

Also stop using terms you don't know the meaning of like "honor" and "simp"

If you sell yourself, you degrade your value to a commodity...

Actions have consequences, it ain't a fkn normal job nor will it ever be.

Men that pay for such things are pathetic as well.

To think otherwise is to delude oneself of reality.

Note: That doesn't mean you disrespect them, or treat them less than human, but it also doesn't mean you don't call a spade a spade, and a hoe a hoe.

 

[Eighty-six]

Right, that supports my point.

I'm saying that your point is obviated by the fact that his identity is unknown in the first place. He has a family name, but he isn't risking it because it's currently unknown to anyone.

Beg to differ.

The prostitutes surveyed about the prospects of the legalization of their work, and the prostitutes who work in societies where their work is legal and regulated, may beg to differ with your begging to differ (cf. p.11, p.1096 in the document's own notation).

There's plenty of evidence to the contrary (e.g. & tip of a vast databerg),

We're talking about sex trafficking in the sex industry along with intra-industry violent crime, and you brought me an article specifically about sexual assault in prostitution-friendly areas. These are related topics, but they're very distinct.

The benefits of LLR are well-documented in the real world and do not eliminate the harms associated with illegal forms of prostitution.

Public health is improved by degrees, and it would be absurd to expect LLR to obviate the demand for illegal alternatives (child prostitutes, for example).

...

...so, one-- desired number of additional examples of my point, please.

Two... what the hell? That's the thing that this "LLR" is allegedly meant to do, and it doesn't do it, much less in a significant capacity? Because it would do it if could actually prevail against the illegal sector, but then, it's not just being beat by the illegal sector-- it's partly supplied by it, meaning that even the legal has its hand in perpetuating the illegal (again, however unwittingly).

Three-- not all illegal prostitution involves child prostitution. Most of it probably doesn't, given the sources I've linked so far.

Blanket criminalization & enforcement policies haven't ever been particularly effective anywhere. Worse, they primarily harm (mostly female) prostitutes, when the entire "problem" arises from (mostly male) consumer demand -- and its greatest non-medical harms arise from management by organized criminal gangs.

All of this not only exists in an environment of legal prostitution, but has palpably worsened in said environment. Again, doing what Sweden does about the sex industry (sparing the "supply", targeting the demand and demand-drivers) is likely the most effective mitigator for sex trafficking.

"Why hello my fellow listeners, how dare you put down le virtuous onlyfans-I mean sex workers! They're just trying to get by! Sex work is noble and virtuous!"
DROPPED

To be fair, in-person prostitution is arguably more "honorable" than OF in that-- in comparison to the OF content creator-- the prostitute is actually "out there" and exposing themselves to danger (for whatever that's worth), and the transactional nature of the relationship between prostitute and client is less liable to be obscured by the exploitation of human emotional needs.

...then again, it's an exploitation of human sexual needs, which does intersect with human emotional needs (and that's putting aside the general exploitation of human sexuality). So... there's that.

But good lord, there's too much Intel rage over women having sex going on here

I did not realize that all women are prostitutes, or that Intel is angry about it.

 

[AnonMan88]

"Why hello my fellow listeners, how dare you put down le virtuous onlyfans-I mean sex workers! They're just trying to get by! Sex work is noble and virtuous!"
DROPPED

This isn't the airport. There's no need to announce your departure.

 

[parkourse]

bash bruddas

 

[DreadKaiser]

freakin people here be debating about something the author gave a backstory to set-up the more the important thing:

how to make every action made by the girls, stupidly outrageous. And forget said backstories 'cause they really don't matter.

Spoiler: fun fact a.k.a. some spoilers for you so thread with caution

none of what you're debating matters at all. The author specifically doesn't care about it either. Their backstories won't even matter when the Yandere Allianc Haishin Cult becomes a thing later down the road which is like few chapters from now on. The only thing that matters is how far these cray-cray will go to worship MC just to satisfy their squirting desire without actually making the MC notice.

Definitely. Want me to set-up the BBQ grill? I have some mignon to cook.

MD Staff. Look away. You don't need the headache

Might I recommend Flank steak. got some good Marinade for it.

 

[beep_repair]

If you sell yourself, you degrade your value to a commodity...

Everyone who works for a living sells themselves, becoming a commodity in the labor market.

 

[phil777]

what's a prostitute gonna do compared to the demon king, a princess, a saintess, and an assassin? Like talk about coughing baby vs hydrogen bomb

She may be the most "normal" of the bunch, which is the intention. To reflect that even the lowliest member of society can be affected by his streams.

 

[beep_repair]

I'm saying that your point is obviated by the fact that his identity is unknown in the first place. He has a family name, but he isn't risking it because it's currently unknown to anyone.

Right. The man complaining about his ex fiancee was concerned about harm to his family name. Streamer isn't.

The prostitutes surveyed about the prospects of the legalization of their work, and the prostitutes who work in societies where their work is legal and regulated, may beg to differ with your begging to differ (cf. p.11, p.1096 in the document's own notation).

Interesting as a group of data points, but not definitive or convincing in any sense. Good grounds for further study though.

...so, one-- desired number of additional examples of my point, please.

It's a question of quality more than quantity.

EDIT TO ADD: see the summary of your links that I EDITed my previous post to add. (Sorry, I was slow on the draw, and you'd already responded by the time I submitted the edit).

Two... what the hell? That's the thing that this "LLR" is allegedly meant to do, and it doesn't do it, much less in a significant capacity? Because it would do it if could actually prevail against the illegal sector, but then, it's not just being beat by the illegal sector-- it's partly supplied by it, meaning that even the legal has its hand in perpetuating the illegal (again, however unwittingly).

The Legalization of prostitution -- coupled with the closely-monitored Licensing of both individual citizen prostitutes and businesses involved the resulting industry -- accompanied by the careful, sensible Regulation of that industry as a whole (which I'm calling "LLR" for the sake of convenience) primarily intends to protect and aid prostitutes who choose to operate legally, and thereby to help mitigate some of the social harms caused by illegal prostitution. It's not a panacea, and it doesn't promise to "solve" illegal prostitution, crime, or sex trafficking.

It's a fairly modest public policy approach that seeks accordingly modest improvements in public safety and health (especially among prostitutes themselves) for largely humanitarian reasons.

Three-- not all illegal prostitution involves child prostitution. Most of it probably doesn't, given the sources I've linked so far.

Agreed. I mentioned it as an example of a form of prostitution that would and obviously should remain illegal even if prostitution in general were legalized.

All of this not only exists in an environment of legal prostitution, but has palpably worsened in said environment. Again, doing what Sweden does about the sex industry (sparing the "supply", targeting the demand and demand-drivers) is likely the most effective mitigator for sex trafficking.

There's so much debate about the "Swedish model" -- and so much to debate -- that I'd prefer to leave it out of an already spaghettified discussion. That said, it's an interesting approach, and I agree that legal punishment, where it falls, would more appropriately target johns and pimps/traffickers than prostitutes. But in my view it doesn't do anywhere near enough to aid prostitutes and normalize sex work.