Kasane to Subaru - Vol. 5 Ch. 41

[KohD]

You asked, so I answered. Now, you gonna cry about it LMFAO

If you can't take it, you do know you don't have to engage with me, but you asked for it.

Look, DesertStorm. It's strange of you to be so uncomfortable and argumentative about this, in the comments of the final chapters of a crossdressing manga. How did you end up here? You must know that being an angry contrarian means you won't have any constructive discussion about this. You are the odd one out. Talking about protecting and corrupting youth's minds, the author's agenda and insulting people makes you a bizarre weirdo. No normal, well adjusted person would be so distressed. I don't know if you can get the kind of attention you want in this thread, these moves are somewhat predictable. Have some creativity and open mindedness.

I must remind you that you can read the story from the beginning for these questions, or read a different story, to a space where you're comfortable at any time you want. There is nothing to be suspicious over. I understand that being a hassle and arguing things over the internet is fun, but this is a waste of everyone's time, and you won't get any mutual respect or understanding this way, so you just seem lost. It's pointless to seek random people's argument, and questioning the author who is writing from the perspective of a different country. I do hope you'll use your time better, or have better things to do in your life nearing the New Year. Festive blessings, and what not, find more stuff to appreciate.

 

[Kireato]

Pardon me for making a strawman like what this chapter did, but imagine this: an obese unshaven man in his late 40s wearing a thong, a microskirt and a crop top as a statement of rebellion to the status quo.

Would you respect their right to express themselves publicly? I find that hard to believe. We need to limit our personal expression in consideration of others. Yes, you could respect that, but should you?

How far should we take our tolerance? Give someone an inch and they'll take a mile.

As for me, I'm fine with it. I'm already numb to degenerate shit, but not numb enough to expose young folks to this.

To keep it simple (since clearly you didn't care to respond to everything else I said): if a woman can wear it, why can't a man (and vice versa)? The purpose of clothes is to cover up your naughty bits, protect from the weather and be stylish. A man wearing woman's clothes still achieves all that. Technically, being naked but wrapped in a blanket also achieves all that but since you'd need to use your hands to keep the blanket wrapped around you it's a bit inconvenient so I wouldn't recommend it - there's a reason we have some standard with clothes that they should stay on you without you needing to actively hold them. I will note that the last time I saw a crossdresser in public, it was late evening and they had a dress that covered the knees, so nothing eye-burning.

If it's appropriate for a woman to wear a thong, a microskirt and a crop top, I don't see why it should be inappropriate for a man. I'm not sure why you think adding descriptive of being obese, unshaven and in the late 40s should change that. Kilts are traditional in Scotland, and if you want to do it right, you don't wear anything underneath so exposure can happen and it's just not a big deal.

In general, I don't think a thong, microskirt and crop top are particularly appropriate but I understand that some circumstances call for it (e.g. for a party where you're intending to find a partner to get laid). As you state yourself, it's a strawman because you're talking about dressing inappropriately not making a case on why women's wear is inappropriate for a man.

Some people always abuse the systems in place (though I'm mostly thinking of super rich tax evasion here and generally bribing their way through the justice system and lobbying the governments for laws that benefit them) and so we have to compromise. Obviously, a blank check on tolerance doesn't work; should intolerance be tolerated? But we're being generic here.

Modesty is a learned behaviour so young children wouldn't care much about what you've described (I mean, younger children would much rather run around naked). In any case, children would pick up that this is not a normal way to dress for a man because they can observe it, they see how their parents and everyone else dresses (unless they're in an environment where everyone dresses like that). You haven't expressed what the problem is here on why children shouldn't be exposed to this. (And please, don't come up with the strawman that your obese unshaven man in his late 40s in a thong, microskirt and crop top is teaching like that, because you're still not explaining why children shouldn't be exposed to this. Stating that it's degenerate and that's why it shouldn't be done is a tautology.)

As an alcoholic, I can say with certainty that this silly and tedious.
In moderation alcohol isn’t harmful.
I think you should have to check your keys at the door of a bar, though. Something like that. Honour system at least.

Here are my first two results from a duckduckgo search and you may want to read them:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/effects-of-alcohol
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/well/mind/alcohol-health-effects.html

There are plenty of things that are harmful that we still enjoy consuming because the harmful effects are small so I understand, but it's incorrect to say that it isn't harmful. Note also that alcohol isn't taken by itself, it is usually in a mixture and some of the other elements might have some benefits to them (but since you can usually get those other elements elsewhere, there's really no redeeming quality to the habit as far as I'm concerned; though as I said, in the past the bacterial killing properties were more useful than the harmful bits, heck, Mongols still give mildly alcoholic fermented milk to infants).

It is banned in most public spaces aside from outdoors in the USA, and banned outside in most areas of japan. Only a few designated areas, or private businesses specifically designated to allow it (I think this makes more sense than how it works here. Easier to avoid a place of business than just… all of outside.
I’m a smoker, but I never EVER do it around children, the pregnant or, frankly, anyone, unless there’s a reliably directional wind and I can go far away and things blow away.

You have to be 18 years old to purchase tobacco or cigarettes here and you are allowed to smoke in the streets or terraces but not in public buildings or at work, but when 20% of the adult population smokes (and looking it up, Nauru is pretty crazy and Myanmar has a really weird skew towards adult males smoking) and you live in a city with 7500 people per square kilometers you can't really go out in the streets without catching whiffs of smoke. Oh and while cigarette butts should not be thrown on the streets but into waste bins, I'm sure you can guess where they all actually end up. I'd love to see some laws drafted to state that anyone born after 2006 remains incapable of buying cigarettes for the duration of their lives so that we can ensure that no one picks up the habit once they're of age and that the habit gradually dies out, but I'm sure the tobacco industry will fight tooth and nail to protect their profit. The whole banned outside in most areas of Japan seems great.

It's great to hear you don't smoke around other people, but I can't imagine that being easy in any crowded city. It undoubtedly would be great to have designated spaces (preferably indoors) for smoking. (You'd need some good ventilation to ensure it doesn't turn into a gas chamber... Though, smoke also sticks to clothes so you'd still have the smell after coming out. Maybe have smoke dispensing machines in the streets where you can get their smoke nicotine fix through a mask and the dispensing machine ensures no smoke leaves it? I wouldn't have any issues with that, but it's understandably a lot more inconvenient for a smoker and potentially a health hazard with the whole mask sharing so it'd probably be best for people to have their mask to attach to a hose on the smoke dispenser. It needs to be portable. Just imagine, you go to work, put your mask and trunk device on and enjoy smoking all day without inconveniencing anyone else. It'd probably be quite the engineering problem to filter the air and wouldn't be very cheap, but I'm okay with people poisoning themselves as long as it's limited to themselves. So make the device, justify banning cigarettes and instead using this device, make lots of money? What would the ad campaigns look like? A sexy woman in a skimpy dress goes to a party and puts on a backpack with a trunk coming out of it and a facehugging mask (that's the device), then a handsome man notices her and thinks "So sexy and mindful, how do I kiss her?". So she presses a button to activate the mask removal smoke cleanup phase and there's a loud whirring noise for a minute while they look at each other seductively (taking notes from the Rock's smouldering stare) and then whabam, the mask can be taken off, there's no smoke and they kiss (maybe take a mint before?). Anyways, electric cars are nice.)

I agree with your general point and your stance on harmful substances like tobacco and alcohol being treated as hobbies, but maybe try leaving religion out of this when it wasn't part of the subject.

The subject he brought up was that he didn't want to see other people's preferences in public. I gave him advice (if he's a man) on where he could go to avoid seeing what other men were into and to hide his own preferences from other men. I used religion because it was useful to the point I was making so I don't understand why I shouldn't have brought it up. I like rambling and going on tangents too.

I don't believe I've said anything that would offend either and I'm under the impression that a muslim would be very proud of the statement that they do not condone in any degenerate behaviour like displaying their trophy wife, sexual preferences, in public. I might be wrong, so if I've made a factually incorrect statement, feel free to correct it.

 

[KohD]

To keep it simple (since clearly you didn't care to respond to everything else I said): if a woman can wear it, why can't a man (and vice versa)? The purpose of clothes is to cover up your naughty bits, protect from the weather and be stylish. A man wearing woman's clothes still achieves all that. Technically, being naked but wrapped in a blanket also achieves all that but since you'd need to use your hands to keep the blanket wrapped around you it's a bit inconvenient so I wouldn't recommend it - there's a reason we have some standard with clothes that they should stay on you without you needing to actively hold them. I will note that the last time I saw a crossdresser in public, it was late evening and they had a dress that covered the knees, so nothing eye-burning.

If it's appropriate for a woman to wear a thong, a microskirt and a crop top, I don't see why it should be inappropriate for a man. I'm not sure why you think adding descriptive of being obese, unshaven and in the late 40s should change that. Kilts are traditional in Scotland, and if you want to do it right, you don't wear anything underneath so exposure can happen and it's just not a big deal.

In general, I don't think a thong, microskirt and crop top are particularly appropriate but I understand that some circumstances call for it (e.g. for a party where you're intending to find a partner to get laid). As you state yourself, it's a strawman because you're talking about dressing inappropriately not making a case on why women's wear is inappropriate for a man.

Some people always abuse the systems in place (though I'm mostly thinking of super rich tax evasion here and generally bribing their way through the justice system and lobbying the governments for laws that benefit them) and so we have to compromise. Obviously, a blank check on tolerance doesn't work; should intolerance be tolerated? But we're being generic here.

Modesty is a learned behaviour so young children wouldn't care much about what you've described (I mean, younger children would much rather run around naked). In any case, children would pick up that this is not a normal way to dress for a man because they can observe it, they see how their parents and everyone else dresses (unless they're in an environment where everyone dresses like that). You haven't expressed what the problem is here on why children shouldn't be exposed to this. (And please, don't come up with the strawman that your obese unshaven man in his late 40s in a thong, microskirt and crop top is teaching like that, because you're still not explaining why children shouldn't be exposed to this. Stating that it's degenerate and that's why it shouldn't be done is a tautology.)


Here are my first two results from a duckduckgo search and you may want to read them:
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/effects-of-alcohol
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/13/well/mind/alcohol-health-effects.html

There are plenty of things that are harmful that we still enjoy consuming because the harmful effects are small so I understand, but it's incorrect to say that it isn't harmful. Note also that alcohol isn't taken by itself, it is usually in a mixture and some of the other elements might have some benefits to them (but since you can usually get those other elements elsewhere, there's really no redeeming quality to the habit as far as I'm concerned; though as I said, in the past the bacterial killing properties were more useful than the harmful bits, heck, Mongols still give mildly alcoholic fermented milk to infants).


You have to be 18 years old to purchase tobacco or cigarettes here and you are allowed to smoke in the streets or terraces but not in public buildings or at work, but when 20% of the adult population smokes (and looking it up, Nauru is pretty crazy and Myanmar has a really weird skew towards adult males smoking) and you live in a city with 7500 people per square kilometers you can't really go out in the streets without catching whiffs of smoke. Oh and while cigarette butts should not be thrown on the streets but into waste bins, I'm sure you can guess where they all actually end up. I'd love to see some laws drafted to state that anyone born after 2006 remains incapable of buying cigarettes for the duration of their lives so that we can ensure that no one picks up the habit once they're of age and that the habit gradually dies out, but I'm sure the tobacco industry will fight tooth and nail to protect their profit. The whole banned outside in most areas of Japan seems great.

It's great to hear you don't smoke around other people, but I can't imagine that being easy in any crowded city. It undoubtedly would be great to have designated spaces (preferably indoors) for smoking. (You'd need some good ventilation to ensure it doesn't turn into a gas chamber... Though, smoke also sticks to clothes so you'd still have the smell after coming out. Maybe have smoke dispensing machines in the streets where you can get their smoke nicotine fix through a mask and the dispensing machine ensures no smoke leaves it? I wouldn't have any issues with that, but it's understandably a lot more inconvenient for a smoker and potentially a health hazard with the whole mask sharing so it'd probably be best for people to have their mask to attach to a hose on the smoke dispenser. It needs to be portable. Just imagine, you go to work, put your mask and trunk device on and enjoy smoking all day without inconveniencing anyone else. It'd probably be quite the engineering problem to filter the air and wouldn't be very cheap, but I'm okay with people poisoning themselves as long as it's limited to themselves. So make the device, justify banning cigarettes and instead using this device, make lots of money? What would the ad campaigns look like? A sexy woman in a skimpy dress goes to a party and puts on a backpack with a trunk coming out of it and a facehugging mask (that's the device), then a handsome man notices her and thinks "So sexy and mindful, how do I kiss her?". So she presses a button to activate the mask removal smoke cleanup phase and there's a loud whirring noise for a minute while they look at each other seductively (taking notes from the Rock's smouldering stare) and then whabam, the mask can be taken off, there's no smoke and they kiss (maybe take a mint before?). Anyways, electric cars are nice.)


The subject he brought up was that he didn't want to see other people's preferences in public. I gave him advice (if he's a man) on where he could go to avoid seeing what other men were into and to hide his own preferences from other men. I used religion because it was useful to the point I was making so I don't understand why I shouldn't have brought it up. I like rambling and going on tangents too.

I don't believe I've said anything that would offend either and I'm under the impression that a muslim would be very proud of the statement that they do not condone in any degenerate behaviour like displaying their trophy wife, sexual preferences, in public. I might be wrong, so if I've made a factually incorrect statement, feel free to correct it.

Thanks for being explaining this for so much detail, but I don't think your intended recipient would like to read or think this much about it. I appreciate it, even if it is a bit tangential. I just hope people can learn to keep out of other's business.

 

[Thrembs]

Here are my first two results from a duckduckgo search and you may want to read them:

Ok, a clinic in Ohio and a newspaper? Peer reviewed study, please.
Your whole attitude screams “no one should be allowed to do things I think are bad.”
and, no, you didn’t need to bring religion in. Especially one not your own.
It’s immediately inflammatory.

“Display their trophy wife” is offensive period.

”In general, I don't think a thong, microskirt and crop top are particularly appropriate but I understand that some circumstances call for it (e.g. for a party where you're intending to find a partner to get laid)“

…I’m just gonna leave that there.

You come off as completely insufferable

 

[Thrembs]

"Do you know the word chaser?" after the girlfriend reveal certainly was a choice.

Pffffffft!!!


also, I don’t understand the idea of water as a “chaser”. It adds nothing to the experience, only detracts.

His brother doesn’t like whisky. He likes the idea of liking whiskey.

 

[PrinceOfDorkness]

I don't know, but there's a difference with consuming content in FANZA as a private hobby compared to crossdressing as a public hobby for people to see, which seems like a fetish to me.

This whole chapter the mangaka just built a strawman to justify crossdressing as a public hobby.

Comparing drinking alcohol to crossdressing is just weak to me as well. I'm fine with that hobby as long as you keep it to yourselves like porn consumption. I don't need to know what you're into.

It'd be way healthier for society if public crossdressing was widely accepted but public intoxication wasn't

(I'm not arguing for alcohol to be banned, that's a completely new sentence)

 

[DementisXYZ]

No offense, but this comes off as you having very limited life experience. This sort of thing happens all the time; I know firsthand.

Oh, I know it happens it there, but I'm stuck in a very conservative area with very close minded and stubborn people, so I don't get to often see conversations with family end amicably. Happy for those that do get this, but at least half a dozen times of comforting those who have much less positive outcomes starts to wane on you, y'know?

No offense taken. In hindsight, the initial surprise at the outcome might have led me to overreact and exaggerate just how unfeasible this outcome is, so it's understandable that it came across as naive for others' perspectives. Anyone who gets to help someone like this (or is someone like this) and see this sort of outcome, I'm happy for all of you (with a hint of envy, not gonna lie).

 

[DesertStorm]

I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't call Jou a "strawman to justify crossdressing," since I don't think that was the point of their interaction narratively. This chapter was to develop the relationship between Subaru and Jou, and show that in spite of not agreeing or even getting along, they're still ultimately family and will still end up caring for each other, and that Subaru's family situation thus isn't as hopeless as we once thought. It's also to show how far Subaru has grown while dating Kasane, in that he's actually standing up for himself, in large part because she got brought into the conversation.
After all, it's not as if Jou comes to realize he's "wrong" about crossdressing in public; he comes to realize Subaru has had is own share of hardships, and to go easier him.

tl;dr, it's character-driven rather than political.

It's the framing of how the brothers handled it that doesn't sit right with me. Tolerating the crossdressing issue is the author's implicit response to normalize public crossdressing to the reader.

@Kireato Brother, you're already so close! You already answered your questions, so I'll answer your question with some choice replies.
Question:

To keep it simple (since clearly you didn't care to respond to everything else I said): if a woman can wear it, why can't a man (and vice versa)?

Response:

In general, I don't think a thong, microskirt and crop top are particularly appropriate but I understand that some circumstances call for it (e.g. for a party where you're intending to find a partner to get laid).

Obviously, a blank check on tolerance doesn't work; should intolerance be tolerated?

Modesty is a learned behaviour so young children wouldn't care much about what you've described (I mean, younger children would much rather run around naked). In any case, children would pick up that this is not a normal way to dress for a man because they can observe it, they see how their parents and everyone else dresses (unless they're in an environment where everyone dresses like that).

I hope this leads you to the right direction.

It'd be way healthier for society if public crossdressing was widely accepted but public intoxication wasn't

(I'm not arguing for alcohol to be banned, that's a completely new sentence)

I'm not arguing for public intoxication, that's a completely new sentence.

 

[KohD]

It's the framing of how the brothers handled it that doesn't sit right with me. Tolerating the crossdressing issue is the author's implicit response to normalize public crossdressing to the reader.

@Kireato Brother, you're already so close! You already answered your questions, so I'll answer your question with some choice replies.
Question:

Response:



I hope this leads you to the right direction.

I'm not arguing for public intoxication, that's a completely new sentence.

I just have point out, DesertStorm, that you say that you're right all that you want, but you're the only one here with an issue to this crossdressing thing, and the only one who is saying the author trying to normalizing this 'nefarious' thing, and you're seeing imaginary answers to your question in the other person's replies. It really seems like an insane, and delusional thing to do, if you're not going to listen to anyone. It doesn't seem like you've read the story very well.

Get your kicks and all, and deal with your discomfort, but you're not accomplishing anything except get concern from others. It's just kinda sad to see. You can ask these questions on any internet forum that actually wants to deal with these concerns, and opposing views. Here are some examples from reddit, though they're may not be right for you:

https://www.reddit.com/r/japan/comments/15v2hey

https://www.reddit.com/r/Christianity/comments/z81sj4

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1f2aanw

https://www.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/t2k2sv

https://www.reddit.com/r/crossdressing/comments/1csg48m

https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransge..._the_difference_between_a_crossdresser_and_a/

 

[Kireato]

Ok, a clinic in Ohio and a newspaper? Peer reviewed study, please.

It appears you've made up your mind if you're not interested to do any research after seeing those. I guess you've already read peer reviewed studies showing that, as you stated, alcohol in moderation wasn't harmful?

Your whole attitude screams “no one should be allowed to do things I think are bad.”

That's just wrong. I myself do things that I know are harmful because it's enjoyable (such as occasionally drinking alcohol) but I'm not going to state it isn't harmful when research by others state that it is.

You come off as completely insufferable

I feel that you have misunderstood me on many points (above being one example) but that's just how the cookie crumbles.

Thanks for being explaining this for so much detail, but I don't think your intended recipient would like to read or think this much about it. I appreciate it, even if it is a bit tangential. I just hope people can learn to keep out of other's business.

You are indeed correct; I do not believe that the recipient is very receptive here. I'll still give it a fair shot.

However, I don't think people can or should keep out of other's business, since we live in society. (To start with, what exactly do you define as a person's own business?) Once you're out in public, your behaviour is pretty much everyone's business, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country so in the scope of this topic, it's reasonable to talk about whether it's appropriate to crossdress in public.

I hope this leads you to the right direction.

My views remain unchanged. Wearing male or female clothing is equivalent. I will add that clothing fashion is transient (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-heeled_shoe ).

I still don't know what your issue is with crossdressing as a public hobby since you refuse to elaborate. It seems that you wish to prevent male to female crossdressing in public because slutty female clothing exist and you do not wish to see any males wearing slutty female clothing (although you are fine with females wearing them and males being in swimwear on the beach).

 

[Thrembs]

looks back at this disaster of a thread
…the internet sure is a place full of rabbit holes, huh.

 

[SilverSupreme]

I don't know, but there's a difference with consuming content in FANZA as a private hobby compared to crossdressing as a public hobby for people to see, which seems like a fetish to me.

This whole chapter the mangaka just built a strawman to justify crossdressing as a public hobby.

Comparing drinking alcohol to crossdressing is just weak to me as well. I'm fine with that hobby as long as you keep it to yourselves like porn consumption. I don't need to know what you're into.

How did you make it 41 chapters into a manga about crossdressing while having such strong opinions against crossdressing?

Edit: also did you really compare this relatively harmless romance-office worker slice of life manga to Mein Kampf? Why are you even here? Shouldn’t you be off committing a hate crime or driving to a school board meeting in another county to say Doctor Suess is poisoning the youth?

Did you know that men used to wear tunics and togas which are basically just dresses?
Did you know that up until the beginning of the 20th century it was illegal for women in the US to wear pants? Did you know that women used to get beaten, arrested, sexually assaulted, killed, and chased by lynch mobs simply for wearing pants?

You’re just repeating history here, and standing on the wrong side of it at that.

Also stop using corrupting children as an excuse. Which children are reading a manga about office workers approaching 30 dealing with trying to find new apartments, new jobs, and adult dating?
If I found a kid reading this, I’d be concerned for other reasons. Like why they care more about fictional characters paying rent than Bluey.

 

[SilverSupreme]

Motherfuckers nowadays really get upset that a man wants to wear a dress while ignoring that for centuries, men wore pantyhose and dressed like they were about to do drag.
They dressed like this in an era where they also killed each other with swords. These guys were more hardcore than modern day haters will ever be.

It’s almost like fashion is ever changing and that things people aren’t familiar with make them uncomfortable. Western men have only been dressing the way they dress today since the 18th century - even then most things worn then would be flamboyant or dandyish by modern standards.

 

[TheNoteBlock]

Ugh this chapter had me crying buckets. I was just talking the other day with a friend about familial relationships, and how strained mine are (due to many factors, but LGBT stuff is a big one so the crossdressing is extremely relevant). My own brother even shared a few of the arguments Subaru's does.

The idea of standing up for my own feelings so aggressively is out of the question for me, as I don't see my parents as even having the potential to be "friends" or equals in any sort of way. But my friend was saying that doing so in his own relationship with his parents has improved it significantly, now that he feels they treat each other more as equals (we're both adults, probably around Subaru's age).

Reading this chapter so soon after that conversation with my friend.... maybe he's right. I don't like that I get anxious whenever my phone goes off for fear it's from my parents. If standing up for my own feelings more is what it takes for it to get better, that's starting to seem more and more like an appealing option.

 

[Crystalball]

Ugh this chapter had me crying buckets. I was just talking the other day with a friend about familial relationships, and how strained mine are (due to many factors, but LGBT stuff is a big one so the crossdressing is extremely relevant). My own brother even shared a few of the arguments Subaru's does.

The idea of standing up for my own feelings so aggressively is out of the question for me, as I don't see my parents as even having the potential to be "friends" or equals in any sort of way. But my friend was saying that doing so in his own relationship with his parents has improved it significantly, now that he feels they treat each other more as equals (we're both adults, probably around Subaru's age).

Reading this chapter so soon after that conversation with my friend.... maybe he's right. I don't like that I get anxious whenever my phone goes off for fear it's from my parents. If standing up for my own feelings more is what it takes for it to get better, that's starting to seem more and more like an appealing option.

Love is hard, a lot of times that failure to commit in front of people pushing at you is what goads them to continue doing so, because they see someone wavering and they want to "help" you. If you just don't back down, people can feel that you are standing on your own feet as a clearheaded adult and feel more secure in accepting the differences in opinion. Results may vary of course, but at the very least you'll feel better about yourself and possibly even gain a greater understanding of what you want due to having to vocalize and defend it. Just a good skill to learn in life.