Kusuriya no Hitorigoto - Vol. 8 Ch. 37 - Balsam and Wood Sorrel (Part 1)

[frozenbiter]

Whoah now that's something. I did not expect this at all.

 

[uano0b]

wow what a back story.

 

[Lucrecia]

@Rgal

You don’t understand. It is not what I – the average wealthy, average cultured and white European woman of the 21st century – believe about slaves that is being talked about in this manga, but what those people believed at that particular historical period.
Of course the slaves were human like all the others, but we know this and we guarantee it because NOW we have a common ethical conscience that considers all human beings as such, with the same rights and the same freedoms. An ethical conscience that required the spilling of the blood of countless victims and pioneers of modern thought, only to undermine what was a custom of millennia.

There was a time - and really, it's not that long ago. Practically until the middle of the last century - they simply did not consider slaves as human: without rights, without conscience, without any value other than their ability to work. If ever a master became attached to one of his slaves, he was seen more as the relationship one has with one's dog or horse, and certainly not what is between two people at the same level. The value we now give to a work machine in the 19th century was the value of a slave. Even less, because you can try to repair a machine, but they abandoned or kill the "damaged" slave because he had become a useless expense.

And trust me, it's not like all this equality is always being followed by everyone now. Just try to see how the Indian Pariah live, or the few remaining ethnic minorities of Central Asia or Latin America, or Africa. Or the Kurds in Turkey, to talk about something that, as Europeans, really touches us.
Even now many men consider women as second-class human beings, too emotional or stupid to be able to think logically (It’s not just a metropolitan legend the motto “a woman must be able to do twice as much as a man to get half of his benefits”. An aphorism that has always stuck with me, even if unfortunately I don't remember who said it, said "everyone when they think of a dancer remembers Fred Astair's immense talent. Never anyone who remembers how well Ginger danced exactly like him, only that she did the steps backwards. And in heels. "), and able to be happy and complete as human beings only if they marry and have children. Such deep-rooted masculine thinking that even many women firmly believe these concepts as absolute dogma (religions have never helped in this regard)


Is that bad behavior? Of course.
is officially condemned by contemporary ethics? Of course you do.
It’s going to keep happening? That, too, of course you do.

It is in human nature to conquer, subdue and destroy all that it cannot conquer and subdue. There’s no need to go around and tell us the story of “ok, we decided this is bad, so now we’re not going to do it anymore and pretend it never happened”, or worse, “this is wrong for me, so it’s wrong for everyone, in any condition, at any time. ”

If this were true, we would live in a utopian world without violence, without oppression, without pain.

 

[TheodoreAnan]

that is the saddest thing i've read in a while

 

[Rgal]

@Lucrecia

It is in human nature to conquer, subdue and destroy all that it cannot conquer and subdue.

It is also in human nature to do none of the above. Whatever we humans do, it is by our choice. That is the human nature, as is condemning people who harm other people, and as is condemning people for making up shitty excuses for people who harm other people.

There’s no need to go around and tell us the story of “ok, we decided this is bad, so now we’re not going to do it anymore and pretend it never happened”, or worse, “this is wrong for me, so it’s wrong for everyone, in any condition, at any time. ”

Good thing nobody does that, then. There are, whoever, people who go around and say "sure, I know this action would harm people and you know this action would harm people and everyone around us would harm people, but this is part of this time's/place's culture, so let's pretend it never ever harmed anyone".

Again and again you and other people in this thread keep starting your posts with a variation of "you do not understand", even though you people still refuse to understand this simple thing: doing bad things is bad whether or not it is part of any culture. Everything you wrote in this pointles wall of text is irrelevant.

 

[sincross7723]

@Lucrecia thank you. that was a spledid explanation.

and kinda sad though realizing the gore side. and bit excited for new arcs to come.

 

[Lucrecia]

@Rgal

Okay, you're right. Slavery in past centuries has always been seen as a horrible thing that everyone rejected as an offense to the most basic human rights and only the ugly and bad people practiced it, but they were the minority. In reality everyone loved and treated each other with respect and equality in a huge roundabout of joy and serenity, as if they had come out of a Disney movie (sometimes they even sang creating huge improvised musicals in the city squares).


Moreover, there have never been wars because killing and stealing from defeated nations is wrong in every situation, and no people have ever been annihilated by others during colonialism. In the Americas the Native Americans and the Indios politely committed suicide to make way for the European conquerors after they kindly asked them to make room for them too.

Back to serious.
Here NONE is denying how slavery is something inhuman and inconceivable to our modern consciousness. But you can't read a historical work - because this is the manga we are commenting on, even if slightly fictionalized - with a modern key; you have to read it taking into account the morality and thought that was present at the time. If at that time the emperor was considered a God descended to earth who could get up one morning and have half of his people killed because he wanted to, and slaves were considered as valuable as a laying hen, the only thing you can do is accept it and take it as a given.

To stand here and tell each other "what a horrible behaviour, we absolutely cannot accept such a thing" condemning the mentality examined without any possibility of appeal is just an exercise in intellectual onanism, done with the sole purpose of being able to feel better and superior to them.

It happens to be the same attitude that the colonialists had when "to export their superior culture": they destroyed the culture of the peoples in the colonies, considering them primitive and inhuman.

 

[VermillionOcean]

@Asbolus

He didn't know she was pregnant until he came back. He also didn't leave her like that, she chose to be like that since courtesans do have contraceptives. What he failed to do was read between the lines and realize what she was planning to do. Why they didn't discuss this in person beforehand, I have no idea. It's kind of stupid if you think about it.

 

[Broken25]

@lucrecia

But you can't read a historical work - because this is the manga we are commenting on, even if slightly fictionalized - with a modern key; you have to read it taking into account the morality and thought that was present at the time. If at that time the emperor was considered a God descended to earth who could get up one morning and have half of his people killed because he wanted to, and slaves were considered as valuable as a laying hen, the only thing you can do is accept it and take it as a given.

This is bollocks.

There is absolutely no reason why i should see, or read about, a person doing an obviously fucked up thing, and not think "Man, this is one fucked up person".

You say that's a mere self congratulatory exercise, but it's not really so. First, because people in the past did actually, often, recognize cruel, horrible acts as cruel and horrible. Are you telling me than abolitionists were wrong, when their culture at large ignored them? Or that the opinion of the slaves themselves has no value?

The second reason why it's not self congratulatory is because the exact thing we are talking about here - that is, using debt bondage to sexually exploit women for money - it's something that is still common today!

 

[Chizan]

@Broken25

There is absolutely no reason why i should see, or read about, a person doing an obviously fucked up thing, and not think "Man, this is one fucked up person".

Then go read some other manga, There is absolutely no reason a work has to omit moral deficiencies in its telling of a time period just to conform to your sensitivities. Slavery was thing back then, in that place, at that time, and this work depicts parts of it. If you don't like it, get the hell out...

 

[Broken25]

@chizan

???

I think you are misundertanding what we are discussing here.

I am not against debt bondage being depicted here. I am not against shitty people doing shitty things in narrative.

Hell i have read real, first hand biographies of slaves.

What i am arguing against is this whole succession of people saying "It was in the past so it was alright"

No, it was fucking not.

 

[Rgal]

@Chizan

Then go read some other manga, There is absolutely no reason a work has to omit moral deficiencies in its telling of a time period just to conform to your sensitivities. Slavery was thing back then, in that place, at that time, and this work depicts parts of it. If you don't like it, get the hell out...

Is that how you treat fiction you consume? Only read books that contain good things happening to people you agree with, so that you never had to — the horror! — sympathise with a victim of something you consider unjust? Because that approach would explain a lot about the concerning lack of critical thought in some people in this thread.

 

[JJM]

@Chizan

History is not pretty or nice. We might live a more peaceful, according to some people via various aspects of society, and moral time but the past was not. History is history, for better and for worse. You have every right to view what happened with disgust but do not insult history by saying what happened didn't exist. We remember both the ups and downs so we can learn from them. This particular event is showing what history really is instead of denying it outright so even if you don't love it, show some respect for the author for being real with the readers.

 

[Chizan]

@Rgal

Is that how you treat fiction you consume? Only read books that contain good things happening to people you agree with, so that you never had to — the horror! — sympathise with a victim of something you consider unjust?

How did you get that from what I wrote? If a story draws me in and the mc is relatable, I don't much care if good or bad things happen to him/her if it makes sense storywise, unless it goes totally off the rails it's the flavor of a story. Likewise, if good or bad things happen to secondary characters, that may include those who are slaves, I don't really care either way if it's integral to the story or setting. If the story is good, I read. If it isn't, I drop it. If the mc is a slave owner but it's appropriate for the setting(harem, classic greek, sex/war/debt slave, etc etc) and the story is fun to read, I read.

@JJM Are you sure your replying to the right person? this is what I wrote;

There is absolutely no reason a work has to omit moral deficiencies in its telling of a time period just to conform to your sensitivities.

. ...meaning I'm not fan of bowdlerized(censored) versions simply to make them palatable to modern audience. Which is pretty much the opposite you're accusing me of...

 

[furato]

@Nic yes, they can. pics on that in google are rather disconcertingly amazing.

 

[Rgal]

@Chizan

How did you get that from what I wrote? If a story draws me in and the mc is relatable, I don't much care if good or bad things happen to him/her if it makes sense storywise, unless it goes totally off the rails it's the flavor of a story. Likewise, if good or bad things happen to secondary characters, that may include those who are slaves, I don't really care either way if it's integral to the story or setting. If the story is good, I read. If it isn't, I drop it. If the mc is a slave owner but it's appropriate for the setting(harem, classic greek, sex/war/debt slave, etc etc) and the story is fun to read, I read.

And yet you just advised someone who called out a character in story for bad behaviour to stop reading the story, as if acknowledging characters' faults is the same as not liking the story. Curious, isn't it?

 

[Lucrecia]

@Broken25

So, after blamoring ALL societies in this world from prehistory to World War II – because all societies and all cultures, more or less, practiced slavery and waged war by killing each other cheerfully – what do you think we should do?

Conviction in absentia? To erase them from our memory forever, because they are ugly, dirty and bad they don’t deserve to be studied and remembered?
And after you do, will anything really change? Saying that slavery is bad and prostitution is wrong makes them magically disappear?

For the umpteenth time, NO ONE is saying that slavery is acceptable, at any time. But it has always existed, it exists, and unfortunately it will always exist, even if in different forms, because it is in human nature to exploit others, even one’s own fellow men. And it’s not something I’m making up right now that at certain times and places on earth this was the normality, not only accepted but even favoured by culture, politics, even religions.

Pointing the finger at a historical work that tells a horrible reality will not change that horrible reality.


Also because it’s gone now, and time doesn’t go back.

 

[starch12313]

Im dumb as fuck so can someone explain what happened this chapter. From what I got the prostitute liked him, and she was either bought or had died (by a disease). I read somewhere that in ancient china a prostitute would cut off their pinky if they liked someone so theres that. Also the fmc is his daughter, because of the fact that she had a similar physical deformation on her finger.

Anything that I got wrong or missed?

 

[Broken25]

@lucrecia

Pointing the finger at a historical work that tells a horrible reality will not change that horrible reality.

But i didn't pointed a finger against the work at any point?

(It's a very good work!)

I pointed a finger at a character (granny), after a commenter (Nep) said that she had done nothing wrong.

And then a whole bunch of people starting defending her in the basis that her keeping debt slaves is ok since her society allows it.

 

[Rgal]

@Lucrecia

So, after blamoring ALL societies in this world from prehistory to World War II – because all societies and all cultures, more or less, practiced slavery and waged war by killing each other cheerfully – what do you think we should do?

Well, you clearly already have an answer to that: dogpile everyone who dares to acknowledge that characters in works of fiction that do bad things did bad things.

Conviction in absentia? To erase them from our memory forever, because they are ugly, dirty and bad they don’t deserve to be studied and remembered?
And after you do, will anything really change? Saying that slavery is bad and prostitution is wrong makes them magically disappear?

More putting words in other peoples mouthes. Booooriiiing. Come up with better arguments, please.

For the umpteenth time, NO ONE is saying that slavery is acceptable, at any time. But it has always existed, it exists, and unfortunately it will always exist, even if in different forms, because it is in human nature to exploit others, even one’s own fellow men. And it’s not something I’m making up right now that at certain times and places on earth this was the normality, not only accepted but even favoured by culture, politics, even religions.

That is factually false. Plenty of people are saying that slavery is acceptable, some of them even think that it should be acceptable at this time. That's why pointing out that actually slavery is bad is always good.

Pointing the finger at a historical work that tells a horrible reality will not change that horrible reality.

"Pointing the finger at things" was how all the changes in society started. Followed by people telling those who point fingers to shut up (you know, kind of right you right now), followed by them not shutting up, followed by more voices joining in, followed by decisions to put words into action, followed by action, followed by consequences. And the world we live in, however horrible, is now better for it.

Also because it’s gone now, and time doesn’t go back.

Not for lack of trying on behalf of those who would like us to shut up 😎