Make Heroine ga Oosugiru! @comic

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To clarify something for you: loli is a body type and has nothing to do with age, they're just petite and petite women do exist, if you can't believe that then you need to crawl out from under your rock and go touch some grass. Pedophilia on the other hand is entirely about age and by the modern definition (it originally refers to a specific, very young age range of something like 2-8) 90% of anime/manga/novel characters fall into that age range and, since you want to equate fictional characters to real people, guarantees that every last person on this site is a pedophile, including yourself.
If you don't get why someone might be mad about the accusation, how about you try on the legal repercussions of such an accusation on for size? You are making a serious accusation that can permanently ruin a person's life even when they're innocent.
The term Loli itself stems from the 1955 novel Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov, in which the protagonist Humbert, is a PEDOPHILE.

Loli itself pretty much means anything childlike, and Loli bodytype means childlike bodytype(which is why they look like a literal child)

Like idk bro shit's pretty weird, you kinda talking like Humbert here.
 
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The term Loli itself stems from the 1955 novel Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov, in which the protagonist Humbert, is a PEDOPHILE.

Loli itself pretty much means anything childlike, and Loli bodytype means childlike bodytype(which is why they look like a literal child)

Like idk bro shit's pretty weird, you kinda talking like Humbert here.
The term 'loli' is derived from 'lolita,' but makes no appearance in that novel. The term 'lolita' does not really originate from that novel either, it was originally just a form of endearment for not too dissimilar from how one might use 'chiquita' or 'ojou-san,' it was only popularized by Nabokov's novel, and it is even only used with that kind of meaning in the novel as well. The word did not originally have any pedophilic meaning, it was only given such an association after the popularization of the novel. So congratulations on your half-assed research, you've shown you look no deeper than the most superficial details and fill in everything else with personal bias and arrogance.
 
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The term 'loli' is derived from 'lolita,' but makes no appearance in that novel. The term 'lolita' does not really originate from that novel either, it was originally just a form of endearment for not too dissimilar from how one might use 'chiquita' or 'ojou-san,' it was only popularized by Nabokov's novel, and it is even only used with that kind of meaning in the novel as well. The word did not originally have any pedophilic meaning, it was only given such an association after the popularization of the novel. So congratulations on your half-assed research, you've shown you look no deeper than the most superficial details and fill in everything else with personal bias and arrogance.
Edit: Removed the aggressive wording. My intent is to inform, not berate. I apologize.

"Lolita" (/ləˈliːtə/, /lɒlˈiːtə/, or US: /loʊˈliːtə/)[1] is a female given name of Spanish origin. It is the diminutive form of Lola, a hypocorism (pet name) of Dolores, which means "sorrows" or "pains" in Spanish. Originally originated from Sanskrit word Lalita. -Wikipedia

Dolores is the name of the abused stepdaughter in the book Lolita.

Furthermore, it's been traced that the infamous book is how it entered the Japanese lexicon. Regardless of the word's more innocent origins, the fact is, it was the non innocent origin where the current word and meaning draws its origin, both in English and Japanese (though with two very different outlooks, respectively).

Zank, Dinah (2010). "Kawaii vs. rorikon: The reinvention of the term Lolita in modern Japanese manga". In Berninger, M.; Ecke, J.; Haberkorn, G. (eds.). Comics as a Nexus of Cultures: Essays on the Interplay of Media, Disciplines and International Perspectives. Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company. pp. 211–222. ISBN 978-0-7864-3987-4.
 
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Dex-chan lover
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The term Loli itself stems from the 1955 novel Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov, in which the protagonist Humbert, is a PEDOPHILE.

Loli itself pretty much means anything childlike, and Loli bodytype means childlike bodytype(which is why they look like a literal child)

Like idk bro shit's pretty weird, you kinda talking like Humbert here.
The term 'loli' is derived from 'lolita,' but makes no appearance in that novel. The term 'lolita' does not really originate from that novel either, it was originally just a form of endearment for not too dissimilar from how one might use 'chiquita' or 'ojou-san,' it was only popularized by Nabokov's novel, and it is even only used with that kind of meaning in the novel as well. The word did not originally have any pedophilic meaning, it was only given such an association after the popularization of the novel. So congratulations on your half-assed research, you've shown you look no deeper than the most superficial details and fill in everything else with personal bias and arrogance.
Edit: Removed the aggressive wording. My intent is to inform, not berate. I apologize.

"Lolita" (/ləˈliːtə/, /lɒlˈiːtə/, or US: /loʊˈliːtə/)[1] is a female given name of Spanish origin. It is the diminutive form of Lola, a hypocorism (pet name) of Dolores, which means "sorrows" or "pains" in Spanish. Originally originated from Sanskrit word Lalita. -Wikipedia

Dolores is the name of the abused stepdaughter in the book Lolita.

Furthermore, it's been traced that the infamous book is how it entered the Japanese lexicon. Regardless of the word's more innocent origins, the fact is, it was the non innocent origin where the current word and meaning draws its origin, both in English and Japanese (though with two very different outlooks, respectively).

Zank, Dinah (2010). "Kawaii vs. rorikon: The reinvention of the term Lolita in modern Japanese manga". In Berninger, M.; Ecke, J.; Haberkorn, G. (eds.). Comics as a Nexus of Cultures: Essays on the Interplay of Media, Disciplines and International Perspectives. Jefferson, NC: McFarland & Company. pp. 211–222. ISBN 978-0-7864-3987-4.
Paraphrasing this conversation so far:
You: "Lolicon means pedophile because it meant that at one point in this language"
Me: "It does not mean that now, and the word it stems from have no connection to such a meaning until after popularization"
You: "Well yes, but it was used that way shortly after being introduced to Japan by a book that also didn't use it that way. Look at this book about how it has changed in meaning from then!"

At this point, you have openly acknowledged that words can change meaning, that the origins of the word have no connection to pedophilia, and cited a book on how it has lost the pedophilia connection in common usage. And yet you still insist that lolicons are pedophiles?
 
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Paraphrasing this conversation so far:


At this point, you have openly acknowledged that words can change meaning, that the origins of the word have no connection to pedophilia, and cited a book on how it has lost the pedophilia connection in common usage. And yet you still insist that lolicons are pedophiles?
Funny, you claim to have read my posts and yet you both failed to paraphrase me and still insist a lolicon is anyone who is attracted to a loli character.

The "con" part is a sexual obsession, not just an attraction, which is why I think it unwise for anyone to label themselves as such or call someone else that unless it accurately describes them.

And I only bothered with my second response because you went and told someone the history is innocent, when it wasn't, despite having seen my first response. I found it a bit perplexing that you would lie to someone else just to make your point when you didn't have to.

And let me basically repeat my first response: While the term "loli" now refers to any character with some degree of "innocent young girl" aesthetic (not just petite, because there are petite non-loli characters like Rukia Kuchiki), regardless of age, the "con" part hasn't changed. It's still very sexual.

I'll ask you a question:

Can you find another unifying trait or set of traits that loli characters have that isn't also shared by non-loli characters?

Because if you can't:

Therefore, if one is a "loli-con" they are sexually obsessed with characters who have some degree of that innocent young girl aesthetic.

That's just how it is, even by the current definition.

I was defending the current innocent Japanese definition of "loli" while warning against using "lolicon" so casually.
 
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Funny, you claim to have read my posts and yet you both failed to paraphrase me and still insist a lolicon is anyone who is attracted to a loli character.

The "con" part is a sexual obsession, not just an attraction, which is why I think it unwise for anyone to label themselves as such or call someone else that unless it accurately describes them.

And I only bothered with my second response because you went and told someone the history is innocent, when it wasn't, despite having seen my first response. I found it a bit perplexing that you would lie to someone else just to make your point when you didn't have to.

And let me basically repeat my first response: While the term "loli" now refers to any character with some degree of "innocent young girl" aesthetic (not just petite, because there are petite non-loli characters like Rukia Kuchiki), regardless of age, the "con" part hasn't changed. It's still very sexual.

I'll ask you a question:

Can you find another unifying trait or set of traits that loli characters have that isn't also shared by non-loli characters?

Because if you can't:

Therefore, if one is a "loli-con" they are sexually obsessed with characters who have some degree of that innocent young girl aesthetic.

That's just how it is, even by the current definition.

I was defending the current innocent Japanese definition of "loli" while warning against using "lolicon" so casually.
Your definitions end up not agreeing when you confirm them against the actual usage. You say that (1) the attraction must be sexual in nature and that (2) a loli must have the aesthetic of an innocent young girl, using Rukia as an example of a petite character that isn't a loli, but if you look at the tags on the doujins involving her they all have the lolicon and/or loli tags. You can repeat the trial with any other character that is petite but does not fit your definition of "loli" and you'll have the same result every single time. Meanwhile on the flip side of that, you can post a picture of someone like Anya Forger just about anywhere with a caption like "I want to adopt her" or even just making the observation that she's cute and you almost immediately get swarmed by thousands of people calling you a lolicon and a pedophile, because everyone assumes that any kind of attraction must be sexual in nature which muddies the water for that definition.

As for the history of the word, it is verifiable that the oldest origins (diminutive of Lola, itself a diminutive of Dolores) were innocent in nature, you can also trace its usage and meaning through the ages to see that it was only used with innocent meaning until the less desirable meaning was retroactively ascribed to its usage in a certain book. The book itself only used it with a such innocent meaning, and people that did not know the word created their own definition based on the (doll-like) description of the character. Not long afterwards it was shortened and a new word (lolicon) was created for those that liked similar characters, but also around the same time another group happened across the words and attributed the word to the age of the character, changing "doll-like" to "child-like" and the new meaning stuck because it was more sensational. The doll-like definition is still used for lolita fashion which is based on the gothic dresses commonly seen on porcelain dolls.
BTW, the "-con" part comes from "complex" and is most often associated with "oedipus complex" but the related terms (eg, sis-con, bro-con) are used to refer to any overtly doting behavior.
 
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Your definitions end up not agreeing when you confirm them against the actual usage. You say that (1) the attraction must be sexual in nature and that (2) a loli must have the aesthetic of an innocent young girl, using Rukia as an example of a petite character that isn't a loli, but if you look at the tags on the doujins involving her they all have the lolicon and/or loli tags. You can repeat the trial with any other character that is petite but does not fit your definition of "loli" and you'll have the same result every single time.
I have looked up its usage on the website famous for the six digit codes. "Lolicon" only shows up with Rukia Kuchiki when Ichigo's younger sisters are in it. At least that's how it was for the first (most recently uploaded) 27 results (I stopped looking after that since the trend was pretty obvious).

It's usage on an actual hentai website (where everything is sexual) seems to agree with me. She is not a loli. My definitions agree.
Meanwhile on the flip side of that, you can post a picture of someone like Anya Forger just about anywhere with a caption like "I want to adopt her" or even just making the observation that she's cute and you almost immediately get swarmed by thousands of people calling you a lolicon and a pedophile, because everyone assumes that any kind of attraction must be sexual in nature which muddies the water for that definition.
This is why you don't call people who like Anya in that adoption way a "lolicon". Because they are not. And here's something to consider: most of the people on social media, especially twitter, who engage in that behavior are not real fans, nor do they understand manga/anime. They get called out for their tourism quite often.

You are absolutely right that they don't understand the difference between familial, romantic or sexual love. But them not understanding and mistreating people who are innocent doesn't prove anything in this debate.
As for the history of the word, it is verifiable that the oldest origins (diminutive of Lola, itself a diminutive of Dolores) were innocent in nature, you can also trace its usage and meaning through the ages to see that it was only used with innocent meaning until the less desirable meaning was retroactively ascribed to its usage in a certain book. The book itself only used it with a such innocent meaning, and people that did not know the word created their own definition based on the (doll-like) description of the character. Not long afterwards it was shortened and a new word (lolicon) was created for those that liked similar characters, but also around the same time another group happened across the words and attributed the word to the age of the character, changing "doll-like" to "child-like" and the new meaning stuck because it was more sensational. The doll-like definition is still used for lolita fashion which is based on the gothic dresses commonly seen on porcelain dolls.
The history of the word's entry into the Japanese lexicon is the history we're talking about. That lineage is traced to the book with the title Lolita. Hence it's Japanese origin, as in the cause of its entry into the Japanese lexicon, is not innocent. The title of the book is the pet name a predator uses on his victim. Though the Japanese very quickly did not let the book's content put a negative spin on the meaning in the way it did in the west.

We don't discuss the original origin because, if you go back far enough, most negative words have an innocent start. Slave comes from the Slav people, who were captured and sold into servitude so often we now call people like that slaves. -Merriam-Webster dictionary

Is "Slav" a negative term?
BTW, the "-con" part comes from "complex" and is most often associated with "oedipus complex" but the related terms (eg, sis-con, bro-con) are used to refer to any overtly doting behavior.
Uh, no.

Yes, the "con" part is originally from "complex", but "complex" is most often and originally associated with romantic or sexual obsession.

There's a Wikipedia article on "Sister complex" and it comes with sources.

And that "overtly doting" behavior... I'll just quote the wiki.
The sister complex can be understood in the form of a brother who has "love feelings for his sisters" and an "exclusive desire to own them".[7][8]

I would argue that the people who call a person who is overtly doting on someone a "con" are either teasing someone they know who isn't (like the way guys will affectionately trash talk each other) or an accusation of something more serious by someone who doesn't know there is nothing nefarious going on—and is thus not, in principle, an accurate use of the term.

Either way, this is something you wouldn't say in front of anyone but friends because there are implications for anyone not in the know.
 
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I have looked up its usage on the website famous for the six digit codes. "Lolicon" only shows up with Rukia Kuchiki when Ichigo's younger sisters are in it. At least that's how it was for the first (most recently uploaded) 27 results (I stopped looking after that since the trend was pretty obvious).

It's usage on an actual hentai website (where everything is sexual) seems to agree with me. She is not a loli. My definitions agree.

This is why you don't call people who like Anya in that adoption way a "lolicon". Because they are not. And here's something to consider: most of the people on social media, especially twitter, who engage in that behavior are not real fans, nor do they understand manga/anime. They get called out for their tourism quite often.

You are absolutely right that they don't understand the difference between familial, romantic or sexual love. But them not understanding and mistreating people who are innocent doesn't prove anything in this debate.

The history of the word's entry into the Japanese lexicon is the history we're talking about. That lineage is traced to the book with the title Lolita. Hence it's Japanese origin, as in the cause of its entry into the Japanese lexicon, is not innocent. The title of the book is the pet name a predator uses on his victim. Though the Japanese very quickly did not let the book's content put a negative spin on the meaning in the way it did in the west.

We don't discuss the original origin because, if you go back far enough, most negative words have an innocent start. Slave comes from the Slav people, who were captured and sold into servitude so often we now call people like that slaves. -Merriam-Webster dictionary

Is "Slav" a negative term?

Uh, no.

Yes, the "con" part is originally from "complex", but "complex" is most often and originally associated with romantic or sexual obsession.

There's a Wikipedia article on "Sister complex" and it comes with sources.

And that "overtly doting" behavior... I'll just quote the wiki.


I would argue that the people who call a person who is overtly doting on someone a "con" are either teasing someone they know who isn't (like the way guys will affectionately trash talk each other) or an accusation of something more serious by someone who doesn't know there is nothing nefarious going on—and is thus not, in principle, an accurate use of the term.

Either way, this is something you wouldn't say in front of anyone but friends because there are implications for anyone not in the know.
Respectfully, please touch some grass. As soon as you have to start writing an essay on anything in the forums of a manga website you're already taking an L. I don't really care about the whole "loli = pedophilia" thing because it's literally everywhere but holy shit I'm not writing a master's thesis for or against the idea
 
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Respectfully, please touch some grass. As soon as you have to start writing an essay on anything in the forums of a manga website you're already taking an L.
Homer "nerd" meme.
I don't really care about the whole "loli = pedophilia" thing because it's literally everywhere but holy shit I'm not writing a master's thesis for or against the idea
If you didn't care, you wouldn't have replied.

For the record, I argued against "loli = pedophile". Someone who is into loli characters is not necessarily a lolicon. Them calling themselves a lolicon is similar to someone calling themselves a zoophile for being attracted to a catgirl.
 
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Am I confused or is the anime further than the English scans????
The anime is based on a light novel sadly, so we probably ain't seeing the story develop in the manga, as mangas for light novels usually gets canceled really fast.
 
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If there's a second season I hope it gets back to following the actual story since ep 12 is original
 
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The anime is based on a light novel sadly, so we probably ain't seeing the story develop in the manga, as mangas for light novels usually gets canceled really fast.
Some do, some don't. Loner Life, a mid LN series in terms of sales and popularity, has run 250+ chapters in manga form. Some get weird adaptations that try to cover everything in non-linear bits and chunks (Seishun Buta Yarou and Irregular At Magic High come immediately to mind). And some are clearly promotional works -- but those tend to peter out after two or three volumes.

Makeine is well into its fourth manga volume and has a ton of momentum behind it not just in Japan but globally, as well. We may never get to see, say, Riko here, but there's no reason to suggest a looming axe.
 

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