Mushoku Tensei ~Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu~ - Vol. 12 Ch. 58 - Unspeakable Strength

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@holatuwol

many crimes still exist, as always, but they are crimes, slavery used to not be a crime, now it is, slavery does not exist anymore on the same sense as it existed before, its not part of the culture, its not normal
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
573
Inb4 Raphtalia parallels.
Also anyone who complains about these kinds of practices within fiction that is (to a degree) attempting to realistically depict a feudal/middle ages equivalent civilisation is quite frankly an idiot. Denying that these things existed and that not everyone who utilised them during the time they were widespread were irredeemable monsters is the same as denying reality and history itself. You don't have to like it, but you must at least acknowledge it. People who complain whenever challenging subjects are even mentioned, never mind displayed, just want a watered-down, Disney-fied story that doesn't challenge their sensibilities and side-steps the fact that no world is perfect, nor should it be.
 
Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@Monochrome_Scholar there is a non feudal/middle age character, the main character, people are not upset about the world setting, people are upset about the modern japanese person buying slaves.

Slavery is the oldest practice on human history, losers of war, people in debit, poor people, all these groups ended up as slaves on human history, the main character knows all that, the author knows that.
People are upset about the indifference that Rudeus display on this scenario.
I don't care, but i understand the reasons people don't like it, and it's not the reason you are saying on your comment.
 
Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2018
Messages
113
What ? I don't expect the comment section to be like this, I thought people would react to Rudeus behaviour not the slavery itself. Its a manga with medieval fantasy setting for god sake. I really like Rudeus reaction tho.
 
Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@architeus it's more because slavery was trivialized on isekais, that became part of the format, 8 out of 10 isekais have a slave on the story, or more slaves, on the beginning the main character of the isekai histories was upset about it, tried to end it, fight against the system... but he always change its mind and buy a slave girl.
Hell most recent isekais like Isekai Meikyuu de Harem wo or Kaifuku Jutsushi no Yarinaoshi show the main character engaging on sexual activity with the slave, that was normalized on the genre as much as trunk-kun. Some main characters can't wait to get their slaves, the moral is gone.
And that causes a reaction
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Sep 26, 2018
Messages
1,047
I thought the whole jump from "my childish friend can't make figurines to lets go get a fking slave to do it" kinda jarring.
Along with how indifferent Rudeus seems about the thing.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
2,636
To put it simply for future commenters - the issue here is not slavery being normalized in the time period/setting. It's our MC with supposedly 21st century morals feeling it's a great idea to buy a child as a slave to make figurines for his aristocrat friend. Considering the MC was not depicted as a sociopath, then this is just a failure at character writing motivated by sticking to the isekai staple tropes.

Edit:

There's a less flattering interpretation too: if the MC was actually meant to have been morally bankrupt from the get go, but this is the first time it was made a plot point (retconning is usually bad writing in and of itself though). I am doubting this is the case though. Most likely it's good old wanting to have your cake and eat it too, where the MC is both presented as having good morals, and being able to bend those without consequences when the plot demands (or the tropes in this case).
 
Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@criver

source.gif
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
573
@joel7686 (I know you said you aren't taking neither side, but I still wanted to respond as to why I still think it's dumb that people are complaing, even if their issue isn't the one I initially raised.)

Well considering he has lived a good >15 years (I've forgotten how old he is at this point) in that world already, had very little attachment to the old one, and that nothing would change even if he voiced his concerns about it, I'm not surprised that he just rolled with the punches.
Honestly, I think what he chose to do in this situation was the best possible choice. To run it down:
1. Slavery is (apparently) a known and accepted concept in this world.
2. His "student" already mentioned he was considering getting a slave to do the job, but just hadn't got round to asking, meaning that in all likelyhood, eventually he would have bought a slave regardless.
3. No matter how powerful he is, at least a this point in the story Rudy wouldn't be able to stop people using slavery even if he wanted to. Emancipation on the scale of an entire country isn't that easy.
4. The slave he ended up buying would have eventually been bought anyway, or killed. If that's the case, then I genuinely think that if there was no better option, she may as well have been bought by Rudy, who at least understands her state of mind and will see she is treated well. I would say "he should have bought as many as he could" to ensue they don't meet a potentially worse fate, but I'm pretty sure he has niether the funds or authority to pull that off.
5. Just because he originated in the 21st century in our world, doesn't mean he necissarily shares the same moral compass as you. After all, during the course of this story he has already acted like a pervert, killed creatures, watched as another mercinary group got maimed due to his own greed, saw his friend feared and treated badly by racists, recieved a blessing from a literal demon and in this very chapter alluded to being a lolicon. I have little doubt that he will eventually have to kill people as well. With all that he's experienced, slavery is just another thing to add to the list. While it's true he has shown not to be a fan of slavery, aside from the one time where he helped a bunch of them escape because he was in an opportunity to do so, and even then that was just because ofa job and because Ruijerd wanted him to, he has never attempted to do anything similar in all the years since, so clearly it doesn't bother him that much.

The problem here is that certain readers are acting like he is an avatar for them who should respond to things the exact way they would when faced with what they consider to be a dispicable situation, and when that doesn't happen because he is his own character, they can't reconcile the fact that someone would act differently in that situation. He isn't a paragon of virtue, he's just a guy trapped in a different, pretty merciless world trying to make the best of it for himself and those he cares about.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
2,636
@Monochrome_Scholar
Make your mind up whether you want to defend his actions as justified, or whether you want to go with "he has a different moral compass".

2.
meaning that in all likelyhood, eventually he would have bought a slave regardless.
Not if his "master" told him not to. The whole figurine farce is more of a joke reference imo. The gag character is just some insert for a random weeb.

3. Nobody is arguing for that.

4. If Rudy just wanted to buy a slave, to help the slave, he could have decided to not use her as a slave to make figurines. The whole thing with buying the weakest, about to die child slave was not put in there just by chance. The whole point for the author doing this is to provide a "justification", however weak, as the one you just tried to use. This is a pretty common approach (see other such works). The reason is simple - the desire to have slavery in the setting and the MC to make use of it, while at the same time not make the main character an outright villain. So one starts introducing "excuses" to make it more palatable (even if those do not hold under greater scrutinity). Unfortunately you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

5.
doesn't mean he necissarily shares the same moral compass as you.
But it is inconsistent with his character up till now.
None of the events you cited motivate this change in character. "Killing creatures" is the same as hunting, you think hunters are ok with slavery? The whole lolicon thing is a running tongue in cheek gag, that also does not imply that there's a reason he should be ok with slavery. It's just a strange gap in his otherwise typical morals that sticks out like a sore thumb. The obvious reason it is there is that it is just your typical staple trope for isekai - still doesn't make it less of an inconsistency in the characterisation.

The problem here is that certain readers are acting like he is an avatar for them
Speak for yourself, I couldn't relate to this character even if I wanted to, I am sure this is the case for many other readers. Pointing out an inconsistency doesn't automatically mean that the char is an "avatar" for you.
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
573
@criver
My word were "he deoesn't necessarily share the same moral compass as you". Personally my own moral compass is probably even more warped than his, as if I were in his position I honestly wouldn't care at all. Therefore I am both stating that he has a diffrent moral compass and justfying his action. This is not an either or statement.

Re:2: You really think that this character as a noble whose family was already shown to have indentured servants wouldn't eventually buy a slave regardless, even if for other reasons.

Re3: Just because nobody is arguing for that at the time being doesn't mean I don't expect people to hold that viewpoint, nor do I think it is irrelevant to the argumemt I was trying to make, so I felt like adressing it anyway regardless.

Re:4: I'm fully aware of the trope of "choosing the sad weak slave to make it look better", I even mentioned another example (Raphtalia) in my original post, but it doesn't change the fact that any other slave in that market, if they weren't the strongest or healthiest example, would still be in the same situation as the one he chose, so what he did by buying her to essentially save her is still a net good, even if it is made to be more virtuous than it is. Don't get me wrong, he's still buying a slave and there will still be people who can't see past that, but there are far worse fates a person can face in that world as we've already seen. Besides, just owning a slave doesn't automatically make a character a "villain", just like how, like it or not, not everyone who owned a slave in real life when it was still a widespread practice was a villain, they were simply a product of the period in which they lived.

Re5:How is it inconsistant? "Killing creatures is the same as hunting", sure, but there are people in real life who don't agree with hunting and find that to be barbaric. "The lolicon thing is a tongue in cheek gag", you used that one earlier, the gag argument to write something off can only go so far. Also none of these were argument to say "because of this he should be ok with slavery", they were comment on his past behaviour and his character, trying to dispel the idea that he is some all round moral guy. You don't have to be "ok with slavery" to be largely apathetic to it, you just have to not really care one way or the other. Not to mention you completely ignored the part where I mentioned that (although he admittedly learned from it) there was a time in the past where he was pretty much ready to watch another adventuring group get killed just to raise his own groups reputation. He has never been a completely good, moral person. You can still like doing good things and still try helping people when you can while also being largely indifferent. Believe it or not, they aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Your final sentance: It just seems funny that out of everything that has happened thus far, this is the first time so many people are up in arms about it being an "inconsistency", when, since it's clear an event like this was something the author wanted to happen, honestly I think this was both the tamest and most in character way this could have been handled.
 
Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@Monochrome_Scholar this protagonist was 30~~35 before being reincarnated and now is 40~~50 if you sum both lifes
The main characteristic of Rudeus is that he was a "old man" NEET that was throw on the streets for being useless, he was an adult when he died.
it's one of the main points of this isekai, we are not dealing with a kid here
 
Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@Monochrome_Scholar also he could go to a poor zone of the country, like, the same place where the slave traders get their merchandize and adopt a poor kid, saving it from slavery and giving it a new life, it's not that hard.
Fitz it self was a homeless elf that Rudeos adopted when he was 4~~6 so, there are many homeless child out there, buying a slave is just lazy and wrong for the protagonist.
he is at least 40 years old, he should know better.
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
573
@joel7686
Yeah, he's mentally an adult, but the point I was trying to make by bringing up the age isn't that he should be more mentally mature but that, although he was originally a 30 something from the 21st century, he has still spent a good amount of years since then in that world, so it isn't unbelieveable that he would have adapted to, if not embraced their way of doing things during that time.
On the other point, while it's true that it may be more acceptable and possibly more in character for him to adopt a child from a poor district, aside from the meta argument of "clearly the author just wanted this to happen", in this case not only was the thought of buying a slave raised by Fitz, and Rudy just went along with them, but that we have no idea of the geography of where he is now in relation to the "poor zone", for all we know it could be the other side of the country, and I doubt they would travel a great distance on a whim just because they want someone who is capable of learning magic and making figurines. Not to mention they were looking for a Dwarf, and we have no idea if Dwarves are native to that area.
 
Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2019
Messages
316
@Monochrome_Scholar
He adopted Fitz, he helped people that he could just ignore, he sacrificed his freedom for the good of others many times, he forgave his father, that treated him like garbage and abandoned his family.
Rudeus does not have a moral compass problem, Rudeus is not a bad person, that was established already.

Rudeus have traveled on the demon continent, the most dangerous place on the planet with no maps and previous knowledge, and he crossed a distance equivalent to 2 continents on a few months, traveling is like the easiest thing that he can do, even if its on the other side of a country, its nothing to someone that can cross the most dangerous continent on the planet.

Once again, i don't really care that much, but that does not fit what he have done or how he is. They are looking for someone that can make dolls, being a dwarf is just a bonus.
 
Dex-chan lover
Joined
Mar 13, 2018
Messages
2,636
@Monochrome_Scholar
My word were "he deoesn't necessarily share the same moral compass as you". Personally my own moral compass
This is not about my or your moral compass. It's about the morals and ethics in general of developed countries such as Japan. Slavery is unacceptable in that context and people involving themselves with it are morally bankrupt. Thus there's no reason for the MC to engage in such actions, especially considering it doesn't logically follow from what we've seen untill now from him either (heck he was saving slaves a few chapters back).

Either you have to agree that his morals change based on convenience, and thus he is more of a sociopath than anything, or that this is a characterisation failure on the part of the author. Note that even in the former case, it will still be considered a bad move from the author, since retcons are not considered the greatest tool in the box. All in all, it's a misstep that was unnecessary, and is seemingly there only in order to include some staple isekai trope that "must" make it in. That's also one of the main issues with "cooking recipes" writing and isekai in general.


2.
wouldn't eventually buy a slave regardless, even if for other reasons.
The point is that it won't be facilitated by the MC, or even suggested by him. It's simply disturbing and inconsistent how he doesn't think twice about it. What's next? Gets transported to a place where it's customary to kill some newborns and he goes along with it? Maybe at that point you'll realize there's an inconsistency? Or will you?

3.
I don't expect people to hold that viewpoint,
Several pages back this was addressed multiple times, but fair enough. Just be aware that neither me nor joel hold that as a point of contention. We do not expect the MC to somehow magically achieve impossible feats, it's just jarring seeing characterisation inconsistencies just because a trope "must" make it in. I am all fine if the MC is introduced as a sociopath and then does this mind you. The problem is that the author wants to have both, which simply doesn't work (if it did you wouldn't have so many people noticing this - go back a few pages in the comments, we're neither the first nor the last to notice this, feel free to ignore people just rustled by the setting btw).

4.
what he did by buying her to essentially save her is still a net good, even if it is made to be more virtuous than it is.
I fully agree. There is nothing clashing with developed countries' 21st century morals there - his action is virtuous all things considered. That is, if he was actually feigning that he's buying the slave as a slave, and meant to just free her and employ her. The moment he doesn't do that, and instead uses her as a slave, is the moment you will have the inconsistency I spoke of. Basically his ulterior motives clash with the naturally expected morals from him. Note that he's talking about slaves as if they were objects.

just owning a slave doesn't automatically make a character a "villain"
It does make him morally bankrupt from the point of view of the morals of his original country and time. So pretty much a villain.

5.
there are people in real life who don't agree with hunting and find that to be barbaric.

Hunting is not illegal - there's a good reason for that. There are people who disagree with it, but it is not considered immoral. The same way that there are vegetarians, but eating meat is not considered immoral. Morals are a product of society, it's not defined by what a small group of people believe.

the gag argument to write something off can only go so far.
There's nothing to write off, it cannot serve as an argument for your point in the first place since it is unrelated. And yes, it us a tongue in cheek gag if you haven't noticed. He's not going around raping children.

trying to dispel the idea that he is some all round moral guy.
There's no illusion that he is perfect. But what you cited are not anywhere near the level of being fine with slavery from a moral standpoint. Not to mention that most of what you cited are not even issues morally.

to be largely apathetic to it,
He's not apathetic to it though, he's actively engaging in slave purchase, and in the future in slave exploitation. And somehow in the mind of the author this can be reconciled with what we previously saw about his distaste for slavery. Inconsistency much?

where he was pretty much ready to watch another adventuring group get killed
I just don't remember this event, so without a reference to the page I cannot comment on it. It's notable that it's still doesn't change the inconsistency that I am talking about, unless you want to argue he's a sociopath based on these grounds.

He has never been a completely good, moral person.
As mentioned - I do not have such an illusion. But there's a large jump between not a "completely good person" and engaging in slave exploitation.

when you can while also being largely indifferent.
This is not about indifference, it's about consciously engaging in morally reprehensible activities. Either he's morally bankrupt or a sociopath, neither of which follow from the text, so this implies that it is an inconsistency.

this was something the author wanted to happen
You do understand it's even worse when the author can't even realize it's an inconsistency, or realizes that, and still introduces it in order to have trope #3628 from his recipe?
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
573
@joel7686
Adopting Fitz wasn't just a random situation out of the goodness of his heart, it was also becaus he had befriended her and got to know her before then, he helped people because he was placed in or found himself in situations where he could, he didn't necessarily go out of his way to do so. His father didn't abandon his family, on the contrary he was searching for them while caring for his daughter, and only acted that way towards Rudy at their reunion because he didn't know his situation and assumed he had been wasting his time since their seperation, something that Rudy's entrance and actions at the time didn't help. The only time I can think of where he sacrificed his freedom for others was where he was temporarily imprisoned in the beast-person village due to a misunderstanding.
I'm not saying he has a moral compass problem or that he's a bad person, I'm just saying that he only really acts when it's convient or he gets something out of it. Don't get me wrong, when he does act he goes above and beyond, but unless it involves his friends or family, or he is faced with a situation directly, he never goes out of his way to look for trouble.

When he travelled the demon continent he did so with the solid goal of getting back home as soon as possible as quickly as he could and had nothing else to occupy his time, and even without a map he had Ruijerd, a native to the continent, as a guide/bodyguard, not to mention that as soon as they reached a city they could have easily got directions to the nearest port town. However in his current situation he is a student of a magic academy, presumably assumed to attend on a regular basis, and the idea of getting someone to help make models was just a random idea they came up with on a whim, not something so important that he would need to travel for who knows how long and miss out on school attendance to resolve.

Maybe it's because I just personally don't hold him to such a high standard, but his actions in this chapter genuinely don't bother me.

On an unrelated note, I'm honestly enjoying this discussion. It's been to long since I've had an honest-to-god argument with people who have actually well thought out points. I am sorry that it's ended up taking up so much space in this comment section though. Sorry everyone else.
 
Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
373
Rudeus did nothing wrong.

Time to remember the moment Rudy, Silphy and Geek san was all worried about the terrible place they was, with the innocent people slaved who lost their humanity and are condemned to live in agony and despair. (many of them certainly victms of the teleport incident, like both Rudy and Silphy!!)

Here:
LhAEETY.jpg


*Irony maximum level alert*

Btw, the right title for this chapter should be "Unspeakable moral"
 
Fed-Kun's army
Joined
Mar 8, 2019
Messages
573
@criver
Jesus this was a long one to get through. Ok, lets go.

Re:points 1,2, and 4.2: The problem is your still expecting him to act according to the morals of the period he originally came from. You say yourself that "Morals are a product of society", but for a good >15 since he came to that world he has been part of a society that seems largely fine with it. Like I mentioned in another comment, when he has been in the world for that long, it wouldn't be unreasonable or surprising for him to adapt to, or even embrace their way of thinking at this point. Also, buying a slave wasn't suggested by him, but by Fitz.
I won't deny that it's lazy or cliched writing, I just don't personally see it as such a big problem as other people have made it out to be. I'll admit, it probably shouldn't have happened as a plot point, but at least if it was going to happen regardless, this was the best way it could have gone.

On the note of him bing against slavery earlier, he was never explicitly against the practice of slavery. He agreed to free some child slaves in order to smuggle Ruijerd on a boat, agrred to free to sacred beast by request of the freed children and only fought the slavers in the beast-person village because they were burning it down and enslaving them in front of his very eyes. He has never gone out of his way since then to stop slavers or condemn slavery as a concept.

Re:point 3: Fair enough, nothing really to add here.

Re:point 4.1: Admittedly if it goes as you say it might regarding him keeping her instead of freeing her (and let's be honest, it probably will), yeah that would be a bit harder for me to try and defend. Honestly for most of this argument I've been tring my harded to play devils advocate, partially because of how much it annoyed me back when people blindly criticised "Shield Hero" for this same plot point. The issue in this case however would be that, not only did he buy the slave for himeself instead of just being a bystander while his student bought one, but also that (as much as I've been talking about how Rudy isn't an absolute moral character) compared to Naofumi from "Shield Hero", Rudy is far less morally grey, so if he then chose to keep the slave in servitude that would indeed be somewhat wierd for him.

Re:point 5:
Hunting isn't considered immoral or illegal, but in their world neither is slavery, just as there was a time in our world where it wasn't.
You don't have to have your character raping children for them to still be a genuine lolicon. There are a lot of characters in manga that are actually lolicons, but very few of them actually do terrible things to children. I'm not trying to make any statements or judge anyone when I say that, I'm just saying just because a character is a lolicon doesn't always mean it's just a gag, and it doesn't automatically make them a bad character.
In regards to the event you can't remeber, end of chapter 24 through chapter 25.

Also I don't want to make any assumptions, but you definately seem like someone with very strong opinions when it comes to things commonly deemed immoral. Honestly compared to some like me who considers myself largely amoral and apathetic about such things, people with that midset are the hardest for me to deal with. Nevertheless, I appreciate you still replying to my points, and the fact that niether you nor Joel have come across as confrontational or condescending in your replies. Like I mentioned above, this discussion has actually been quite fun for me. Thanks.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top